Confirmed with Link: Toffoli to CGY for Emil Heineman, Tyler Pitlick + Picks (Part 2)

[L4br3cqu3]

what was your expected return? Even though Toffoli has been good lately, he’s a decent second liner

the fact he returned three pieces of any value is surprising

Not pointing at the poster you're replying to, but overrating our own players/prospects is a thing most fans do, I think we got pretty good value for Toffoli too.

People expecting Lehkonen to bring a 1st + prospect, or Chiarot a 1st + top prospect, come on, I mean I love Lehkonen, love his recklessness and silent leadership, but he's at top a 3rd liner who can complement a bit everywhere, and Chiarot is at top a #4 who plays way too much but fortunately bring his A game in the playoffs. Not top players.

Also, we're on HF, how come most people knows mostly other teams top prospects only ? Heineman is a decent one, not an A prospect, but definitely a B one, and it's perfectly fine.

 

[RationalExpectations]

what was your expected return? Even though Toffoli has been good lately, he’s a decent second liner

the fact he returned three pieces of any value is surprising

3 pieces ? A (very) late first, a B prospect and a cap dump ?

I am not saying the Habs got fleeced, but it seems to me lower than what the pens got for Zucker who is not as good and a worse contract. So it's on the lower range of what I expected, but what bothers me is that I think CGY can go really far in those playoffs...

 

[WeThreeKings]

3 pieces ? A (very) late first, a B prospect and a cap dump ?

I am not saying the Habs got fleeced, but it seems to me lower than what the pens got for Zucker who is not as good and a worse contract. So it's on the lower range of what I expected, but what bothers me is that I think CGY can go really far in those playoffs...

It's the same return

1st round pick + B prospect + cap dump.

 

[Merci Saku]

3 pieces ? A (very) late first, a B prospect and a cap dump ?

I am not saying the Habs got fleeced, but it seems to me lower than what the pens got for Zucker who is not as good and a worse contract. So it's on the lower range of what I expected, but what bothers me is that I think CGY can go really far in those playoffs...

Or they could go on a losing streak and miss the playoffs, the Oilers are 9th and only 7 pts separate them

no one knows so you can’t compare to the Zucker deal

 

[Wats]

Not pointing at the poster you're replying to, but overrating our own players/prospects is a thing most fans do, I think we got pretty good value for Toffoli too.

People expecting Lehkonen to bring a 1st + prospect, or Chiarot a 1st + top prospect, come on, I mean I love Lehkonen, love his recklessness and silent leadership, but he's at top a 3rd liner who can complement a bit everywhere, and Chiarot is at top a #4 who plays way too much but fortunately bring his A game in the playoffs. Not top players.

Also, we're on HF, how come most people knows mostly other teams top prospects only ? Heineman is a decent one, not an A prospect, but definitely a B one, and it's perfectly fine.

The rumours say Lehkonen/Chiarot are worth around a 1st, not like fans just making it up. Say what you want about Toffoli, but he has a cup ring/playoff experience + scores in playoffs/regular season + plays all situations including PK. His contract is also very reasonable and could have been traded in off-season/at the draft.

We'll see if that will happen with above 2 but at first glance this isn't really a return that makes you think Habs got the most you can get for Toffoli. It looks more like generic value. He went for less than Blake Coleman/Zucker/Tatar (when he was traded from Det to Veg) looking at some of the recent trade deadline deals where a non-rental forwards were moved. It really does depend on Heineman being good.

 

[RationalExpectations]

Or they could go on a losing streak and miss the playoffs, the Oilers are 9th and only 7 pts separate them

no one knows so you can’t compare to the Zucker deal

I don't see this as likely at all. Addison > Heinemann for me.

 

[Simarino]

What’s the latest on Heineman?? Is he seriously injured? Can’t catch a break the last few years with all the serious injuries to our prospects?!

 

[dcyhabs]

Seems to me the type of prospect made a difference to the trade. Heineman is fairly physical and not small, while some of the other options would have been smaller but higher scoring guys.

For the habs the key to any trade is first round picks. They got one in this deal, even if it will probably be late 20s. Getting a pick in the teens would be great, but unlikely.

Calgary should be happy, at least so far. Toffoli has 7 points in 7 games.

Looks OK so far. Could be bad if Heineman doesn't recover and and the pick busts.

 

[1909]

what was your expected return? Even though Toffoli has been good lately, he’s a decent second liner

the fact he returned three pieces of any value is surprising

Habs did not have to trade him. Why not keep your best assets-players and work hard to first deal your dead wood like Hoffman, Armia, Petry, Drouin or Dvorak ? Toffoli was really one of the top leaders on this team.

 

[1909]

Seems to me the type of prospect made a difference to the trade. Heineman is fairly physical and not small, while some of the other options would have been smaller but higher scoring guys.

For the habs the key to any trade is first round picks. They got one in this deal, even if it will probably be late 20s. Getting a pick in the teens would be great, but unlikely.

Calgary should be happy, at least so far. Toffoli has 7 points in 7 games.

Looks OK so far. Could be bad if Heineman doesn't recover and and the pick busts.

It's a very shallow draft. Playesr picked after 20th will maybe be 3rd and 4th liners and bottom 4 d-men at best.

 

[danyhabsfan]

Zucker had a 5.5M cap hit (still has) and was producing less then Toffoli at the time of the trade.

Zucker (35 goals 71 pts in last 126 games)

Toffoli (37 goals 70 pts in last 89 games)

1st round pick = 1st round pick
Addison > Heineman


Considering their production and their contract we should have expected a better return than Zucker for Toffoli.

My question is why did Hughes jumped on that deal way before trade deadline? You dont have to unless it's an offer you can't refuse. Which isn't the case.

 

[dcyhabs]

Zucker had a 5.5M cap hit (still has) and was producing less then Toffoli at the time of the trade.

Zucker (35 goals 71 pts in last 126 games)
View attachment 512167

Toffoli (37 goals 70 pts in last 89 games)
View attachment 512168

1st round pick = 1st round pick
Addison > Heineman


Considering their production and their contract we should have expected a better return than Zucker for Toffoli.

My question is why did Hughes jumped on that deal way before trade deadline? You dont have to unless it's an offer you can't refuse. Which isn't the case.

Hughes probably wanted to make sure Toffoli went to a place he was happy to go to. Probably also wanted to make a statement like "the sale is on" so that he could get offers on other players. He may have a different view of the prospects and the fit for the team, that is Heineman may not be the better prospect but he might be the better fit for the habs.

MB tried pretty hard to win trades and signings, he didn't always consider fit. Suitability is important.

 

[Miller Time]

Hughes probably wanted to make sure Toffoli went to a place he was happy to go to. Probably also wanted to make a statement like "the sale is on" so that he could get offers on other players. He may have a different view of the prospects and the fit for the team, that is Heineman may not be the better prospect but he might be the better fit for the habs.

MB tried pretty hard to win trades and signings, he didn't always consider fit. Suitability is important.

this.

and
Zucker had 3 years left on his deal (Toffoli only has 1)
Addison, at the time was hardly a better prospect than Heineman, at best they are similar value
Wild also took back Galch's outstanding salary for that season (was on a 4.9M cap hit at the time, so about ~1.2M in real dollars that the wild took on... much more than the amount we took back in pitlick's salary)
habs also got a 5th

all in all, i'd say it's quite similar value return, and arguably a bit better for montreal given the $ savings and cap room made in the process (which I'm sure Hughes values as an asset that might come into play in other deadline deals he's working on).

The toffoli return wasn't homerun great (unless Heineman lives up to what Hughes & co. see in him), but it was definitely solid and on par with expected return.

 

[AlexGretzchenvid]

3 pieces ? A (very) late first, a B prospect and a cap dump ?

I am not saying the Habs got fleeced, but it seems to me lower than what the pens got for Zucker who is not as good and a worse contract. So it's on the lower range of what I expected, but what bothers me is that I think CGY can go really far in those playoffs...

You really think calgary is going to go deep? I think they are a first round exit.. max 2nd round and there are a few sleepers in the late 1st ...

 

[dcyhabs]

You really think calgary is going to go deep? I think they are a first round exit.. max 2nd round and there are a few sleepers in the late 1st ...

If they win the division and then lose early the pick is still late. One way or another the pick is likely to be in the twenties.

 

[HuGort]

what was your expected return? Even though Toffoli has been good lately, he’s a decent second liner

the fact he returned three pieces of any value is surprising

Wasn't really much in return. The prospect is projected bottom six winger. Can get them anywhere. The pick is late first, likely not make it. The 5th is shot in dark pick.

 

[danyhabsfan]

this.

and
Zucker had 3 years left on his deal (Toffoli only has 1)
Addison, at the time was hardly a better prospect than Heineman, at best they are similar value
Wild also took back Galch's outstanding salary for that season (was on a 4.9M cap hit at the time, so about ~1.2M in real dollars that the wild took on... much more than the amount we took back in pitlick's salary)
habs also got a 5th

all in all, i'd say it's quite similar value return, and arguably a bit better for montreal given the $ savings and cap room made in the process (which I'm sure Hughes values as an asset that might come into play in other deadline deals he's working on).

The toffoli return wasn't homerun great (unless Heineman lives up to what Hughes & co. see in him), but it was definitely solid and on par with expected return.

Toffoli has this season + 2 seasons at 4.25M.

Addison made team Canada (word junior). He was a better prospect than Heineman.

 

[Miller Time]

Toffoli has this season + 2 seasons at 4.25M.

Addison made team Canada (word junior). He was a better prospect than Heineman.

Yes, my bad, toff has 2yrs left (vs3 zucker had, zuc was also 2yrs younger than Toffoli at time of the trade).

Heineman made wjs too... was drafted higher, and like Addison made decent but not significant improvements in his D+1 & 2 yrs... plus Heineman has been playing in men's pro league both yrs vs jrs as addison had been. Disagree with your take.

 

[danyhabsfan]

Yes, my bad, toff has 2yrs left (vs3 zucker had, zuc was also 2yrs younger than Toffoli at time of the trade).

Heineman made wjs too... was drafted higher, and like Addison made decent but not significant improvements in his D+1 & 2 yrs... plus Heineman has been playing in men's pro league both yrs vs jrs as addison had been. Disagree with your take.

Addison (no significant improvement?)
Addison Named Eastern Conference Defenseman of the Year – Lethbridge Hurricanes

Better stats
Better contract


1 year older (not 2)

I would have expected a slightly better return than Zucker.

 

[SOLR]

Zucker had a 5.5M cap hit (still has) and was producing less then Toffoli at the time of the trade.

Zucker (35 goals 71 pts in last 126 games)
View attachment 512167

Toffoli (37 goals 70 pts in last 89 games)
View attachment 512168

1st round pick = 1st round pick
Addison > Heineman


Considering their production and their contract we should have expected a better return than Zucker for Toffoli.

My question is why did Hughes jumped on that deal way before trade deadline? You dont have to unless it's an offer you can't refuse. Which isn't the case.

Because if you have 4 to 5 pieces to sell at the same time, times play against you in crunch time. You have to sell 1 early, for a bit less. Then you have all the time in the world to milk the main asset (Chariot), + more.

 

[26Mats]

Because if you have 4 to 5 pieces to sell at the same time, times play against you in crunch time. You have to sell 1 early, for a bit less. Then you have all the time in the world to milk the main asset (Chariot), + more.

Toffoli isn't a pending UFA. We didn't have to trade him or any of the other non-pending UFA's with any urgency.

 

[SOLR]

Toffoli isn't a pending UFA. We didn't have to trade him or any of the other non-pending UFA's with any urgency.

Yes we did. Again. We have potentially 12 guys to sell in the next 2 years. It's too many to wait for each. You have to accept average value in some cases not to get bungled up by your competition.

Keep in mind the goal as well: finishing near the bottom. If you keep all your good players, it's less likely to happen and they might get hurt.

 

[Belial]

Toffoli isn't a pending UFA. We didn't have to trade him or any of the other non-pending UFA's with any urgency.

They clearly were extremely high on Heineman.

We'll see in a couple of years if they were right about that kid.

 

[26Mats]

Yes we did. Again. We have potentially 12 guys to sell in the next 2 years. It's too many to wait for each. You have to accept average value in some cases not to get bungled up by your competition.

Keep in mind the goal as well: finishing near the bottom. If you keep all your good players, it's less likely to happen and they might get hurt.

Not sure they're trying to finish at the bottom with the MSL hire.

The main reason for trading Tofu now, imo, is if you think his value won't go up because he won't produce more than he is this season going forward because the team is bad.

 

[durojean]

Zucker had a 5.5M cap hit (still has) and was producing less then Toffoli at the time of the trade.

Zucker (35 goals 71 pts in last 126 games)
View attachment 512167

Toffoli (37 goals 70 pts in last 89 games)
View attachment 512168

1st round pick = 1st round pick
Addison > Heineman


Considering their production and their contract we should have expected a better return than Zucker for Toffoli.

My question is why did Hughes jumped on that deal way before trade deadline? You dont have to unless it's an offer you can't refuse. Which isn't the case.

I think he also wanted to send a message to the locker room.

I had to make a move with the coach... But it's not only on him. Nobody is safe in that locker room. We are evaluating everyone.