Todd McLellan and the Reverse Sweep Narrative

[Axl Rhoadz]

just be honest...if the Kings face Edmonton in the first rd, and even with a healthy doughty/arvidson; Is there anyone in hockey that is going to give the coaching edge to TMac? Great job in regular season and the points speak for themselves. But when it gets to crunch time- is there anyone going to give TMac the nod in any series for a coaching edge?

If the playoffs started today, I think at the very least it would 50/50 votes for the Kings winning.

 

[Brownie to Pancakes]

Dodgers fans in the house know what it's like to have a beastly team undone by bizarre postseason coaching decisions

 

[mysterman2]

If the playoffs started today, I think at the very least it would 50/50 votes for the Kings winning.

Agreed....maybe be the favorite for the majority. The point here though is that you overlooked- when it comes to rankng playoff coaches....is anyone going to look at any Kings matchup and give Tmac the edge over the opposing coach? Raccoon Jesus breakdown isnt wrong. If the Kings are up 3-2 against the Oil is there going to be any Kings fan thinking "weve got this in the bag" with Tmac behind the bench?

Its not an unfair opinion or observation. Not unlike Dave Roberts handling of pitchers in playoff games.

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

Agreed....maybe be the favorite for the majority. The point here though is that you overlooked- when it comes to rankng playoff coaches....is anyone going to look at any Kings matchup and give Tmac the edge over the opposing coach? Raccoon Jesus breakdown isnt wrong. If the Kings are up 3-2 against the Oil is there going to be any Kings fan thinking "weve got this in the bag" with Tmac behind the bench?

Its not an unfair opinion or observation. Not unlike Dave Roberts handling of pitchers in playoff games.

I think this narrative of TM being this famous, playoff loser is extremely overblown.

 

[Brownie to Pancakes]

I think this narrative of TM being this famous, playoff loser is extremely overblown.

I'm not trying to troll you, seriously I'm not, but sharks fans had the same confidence in their points tally and came out with jack shit. I would love for that NOT to happen this year for LA

 

[Sol]

Dude, nobody finds you interesting enough to read the novel you posted….you are so predictable that I’ll guess it revolves around the concept of losing=coach and winning=team.

In your feelings yet again? Lol

 

[Chruceg]

Say what you will, but when a team gets reversed swept like that culminating with a humiliating defeat on home ice, everyone is to blame including the mascot and parking attendants.

This is a fair point. The only caveat I would make is that this board loves to point to the reverse sweep specifically as an item of McLellan's failures. He absolutely deserves some blame but I strongly disagree that he was a driving cause of it.

The Sharks scored 0-1-1 goals in the final 3 games without Vlasic and were outscored 12-2. Its tough to blame that choke on a defensive d-man getting hurt.

It was just another example of a core that came up small year after year in the biggest moments, and that wasn’t only with TM as the coach.

Completely agree that the Kings came to play throughout the final three games of the series. What I would say though is that there is only one demonstrable change during this series. That change is the Vlasic injury. I argue that he is a shut down defender during that time (which he was) but he also drove play. Would the Kings have scored 12 in those three games with him in? Would momentum have carried the same way? I don't think we are going to agree but I do think it is fair to argue that the key turning point of that series is the Vlasic injury.

 

[Chruceg]

It’s funny to see this argument because there’s a lot of interesting implications.

So if we’re to blame this on the shoulders of Vlasic or say that the core came up short when they’ve pretty much been stellar outside of the playoffs is a bit heavily loaded.
...
1) The Sharks got reverse swept, Edmonton sucked under todd. Who’s responsible here? Why should Todd get the glory of the Kings success when TMacs supporters seem keen to minimize his catastrophic failures elsewhere.

I find what I quoted here really interesting ... I think a lot of your anti-McLellan arguments are valid but I don't think the reverse sweep argument is. The Kings were monsters in 2014. Any team was going to have a very hard time against them. So when you have an extremely competitive team like San Jose and they lose a lynch pin like Vlasic I think it absolutely matters. There were only two or three players more important to that team than Vlasic ... losing him turned the whole series.

 

[Nasti]

This is a fair point. The only caveat I would make is that this board loves to point to the reverse sweep specifically as an item of McLellan's failures. He absolutely deserves some blame but I strongly disagree that he was a driving cause of it.



Completely agree that the Kings came to play throughout the final three games of the series. What I would say though is that there is only one demonstrable change during this series. That change is the Vlasic injury. I argue that he is a shut down defender during that time (which he was) but he also drove play. Would the Kings have scored 12 in those three games with him in? Would momentum have carried the same way? I don't think we are going to agree but I do think it is fair to argue that the key turning point of that series is the Vlasic injury.

Again, the Kings were already up 2-0 in Game 5 when Vlasic got hurt. It was a shutout game so the Kings were going to win their second straight anyway. The turning point was much earlier. Don’t forget the Kings lost Willie Mitchell in Game 6 and still were able to stifle the Sharks offense.

 

[Brownie to Pancakes]

SJ scored 20 goals pre-injury (5/G) and 2 goals post-injury (.67/G). It is convenient but ridiculous to put it all on vlasic's status as he was never a driver of offense. Their team was shook and spineless.

 

[BigKing]

Okay, since this is the third time I'm saying in no uncertain terms "it's not JUST the reverse sweep," let me give you some more

2009--117 point first place team in the entire league, choked out to the ducks 4-2 in the first round.
2010--113 point first place team in the WC, absolutely smoked the first two rounds 4-2 and 4-1...then got SWEPT in the WCF to the Hawks whose other opponents took at least two games off them.
2011--105 point first place team in the pacific, cut through an injured LA and beat Detroit 4-3 before getting smoked again in the WCF 4-1 to vancouver.
2012--96 point team, stickgate etc--won the first game vs. STL then lost four straight to be out in the first round.
2013--shortened season, 3rd in pacific, no longer 'favorites' really, just straight lost to us in the 2nd round.
2014--we all know this one, but i can't mention it
2015--cranked out of the playoffs altogether

off to Edmonton!
2016--garbage team
2017--103 points and 2nd in pacific! Hey! Went up 2-0 in the 2nd round and lost.

from there, he missed the playoffs again until last year--up 3-2 in the series and losing.


The reverse sweep was just the culmination of years of being the favorite and failing...and much like we've seen here, in many of those series, they absolutely collapsed after some key moment, often while leading a series.

So yeah, it's fair to question decision making, including roster and in game adjustments, because he has made a habit at every stop of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. in every single one of those, media and HF had SOME version of "wow the sharks look unstoppable" until they weren't.

Look, I hope more than anything this is the team that he helps--and helps him--get over the hump. But there's no need for all the copium about his past.

THIS

It's not about 2014: it's his entire playoff history including last season.

What is missing here is the historic choke job against Anaheim. His last three playoff appearances are reverse sweep, historic choke job in Edmonton and then up 3-2 lose series last year.

His playoff resume is shit. His SJ team went to the SCF the first year after he was fired. Toss another log on the fire.

Not a horrible coach. Deserves all playoff criticism. This is a results based business and he's been on the ass end of too many playoff letdowns.

 

[Chruceg]

Again, the Kings were already up 2-0 in Game 5 when Vlasic got hurt. It was a shutout game so the Kings were going to win their second straight anyway. The turning point was much earlier. Don’t forget the Kings lost Willie Mitchell in Game 6 and still were able to stifle the Sharks offense.

SJ scored 20 goals pre-injury (5/G) and 2 goals post-injury (.67/G). It is convenient but ridiculous to put it all on vlasic's status as he was never a driver of offense. Their team was shook and spineless.

I think you are both missing the point of my argument.

I am trying to say that people point to the reverse sweep as a significant ding against McLellan. Correct me if I am wrong, but tou are both arguing that the Kings were already becoming a wagon and Vlasic had nothing (or very little) to do with the outcome.

So that leaves us two ideas ... either A) the Kings were a wagon or B) losing Vlasic was a significant turning point. Either way you can't lay the blame at the feet of McLellan.

Am I making sense?

Okay, since this is the third time I'm saying in no uncertain terms "it's not JUST the reverse sweep," let me give you some more

2009--117 point first place team in the entire league, choked out to the ducks 4-2 in the first round.
2010--113 point first place team in the WC, absolutely smoked the first two rounds 4-2 and 4-1...then got SWEPT in the WCF to the Hawks whose other opponents took at least two games off them.
2011--105 point first place team in the pacific, cut through an injured LA and beat Detroit 4-3 before getting smoked again in the WCF 4-1 to vancouver.
2012--96 point team, stickgate etc--won the first game vs. STL then lost four straight to be out in the first round.
2013--shortened season, 3rd in pacific, no longer 'favorites' really, just straight lost to us in the 2nd round.
2014--we all know this one, but i can't mention it
2015--cranked out of the playoffs altogether

off to Edmonton!
2016--garbage team
2017--103 points and 2nd in pacific! Hey! Went up 2-0 in the 2nd round and lost.

from there, he missed the playoffs again until last year--up 3-2 in the series and losing.


The reverse sweep was just the culmination of years of being the favorite and failing...and much like we've seen here, in many of those series, they absolutely collapsed after some key moment, often while leading a series.

So yeah, it's fair to question decision making, including roster and in game adjustments, because he has made a habit at every stop of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. in every single one of those, media and HF had SOME version of "wow the sharks look unstoppable" until they weren't.

Look, I hope more than anything this is the team that he helps--and helps him--get over the hump. But there's no need for all the copium about his past.

THIS

It's not about 2014: it's his entire playoff history including last season.

What is missing here is the historic choke job against Anaheim. His last three playoff appearances are reverse sweep, historic choke job in Edmonton and then up 3-2 lose series last year.

His playoff resume is shit. His SJ team went to the SCF the first year after he was fired. Toss another log on the fire.

Not a horrible coach. Deserves all playoff criticism. This is a results based business and he's been on the ass end of too many playoff letdowns.

Completely agree with both of these posts. There is PLENTY of playoff criticism that can be leveled at McLellan. Particularly San Jose going to the Stanley Cup Final the year AFTER he was fired. COMPLETELY FAIR!!!

My only argument is that the reverse sweep should not be laid completely at his feet.

 

[kingsholygrail]

Dodgers fans in the house know what it's like to have a beastly team undone by bizarre postseason coaching decisions

Soon, we won't have to worry about the post season.

 

[Brownie to Pancakes]

I think you are both missing the point of my argument.

I am trying to say that people point to the reverse sweep as a significant ding against McLellan. Correct me if I am wrong, but tou are both arguing that the Kings were already becoming a wagon and Vlasic had nothing (or very little) to do with the outcome.

So that leaves us two ideas ... either A) the Kings were a wagon or B) losing Vlasic was a significant turning point. Either way you can't lay the blame at the feet of McLellan.

You're implying that the kings "becoming a wagon" is a sudden player-level advancement for LA and a sudden player-level collapse for SJ. 3 games proved that the sharks were the wagon. It is the coaching staff's job to guide players through hardship. Wiping the three-game embarrasment out of the team's collective mind is a coaching masterpiece by Sutter. Failing to maintain historically unstoppable series momentum for one game in four chances is a coaching bedwetting.

 

[Nasti]

I think you are both missing the point of my argument.

I am trying to say that people point to the reverse sweep as a significant ding against McLellan. Correct me if I am wrong, but tou are both arguing that the Kings were already becoming a wagon and Vlasic had nothing (or very little) to do with the outcome.

So that leaves us two ideas ... either A) the Kings were a wagon or B) losing Vlasic was a significant turning point. Either way you can't lay the blame at the feet of McLellan.

Am I making sense?




Completely agree with both of these posts. There is PLENTY of playoff criticism that can be leveled at McLellan. Particularly San Jose going to the Stanley Cup Final the year AFTER he was fired. COMPLETELY FAIR!!!

My only argument is that the reverse sweep should not be laid completely at his feet.

My argument isn’t even about McLellan. It’s refuting the misconception that the Vlasic injury was the reason for the collapse when all evidence points to the contrary.

 

[Herby]

Dude, nobody finds you interesting enough to read the novel you posted….you are so predictable that I’ll guess it revolves around the concept of losing=coach and winning=team.

Speak for yourself. I personally like when someone presents a long quality post, stating their opinion, even if I disagree with Sol’s conclusion.

It’s better than one sentence gotcha posts, made up fake news, incoherent ramblings or calling people fans of other teams.

Another turning point on this series was Sutter moving Richards down the lineup and putting the 70’s line together. They lost game 3 but it was a much closer game, and then they obviously won the next 4, with the 70’s line having some key moments.

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

Speak for yourself. I personally like when someone presents a long quality post, stating their opinion, even if I disagree with Sol’s conclusion.

Didn't you say the reason you went into hiding for three months was so you could take a much needed break from reading Sol's garbage?

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Todd Maclellan sucks. I know that’s probably super unfair with the team winning as much as it is. But I think he’s a terrible game manager, and really struggles with formulating sensible rosters. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

If the Kings make it to the SCF I will gladly eat my crow.

 

[Herby]

Didn't you say the reason you went into hiding for three months was so you could take a much needed break from reading Sol's garbage?

No, I enjoy Sol’s posts, I don’t always agree with him but he at least presents his opinions in an intelligent way. People leave this board because of people like you and TKF. Not because of people like Sol.

And my time in hiding mostly consisted of traveling around the world. Perhaps for the sake of the board you could take a much needed vacation as well.

 

[Statto]

There has been an enormous amount of debate on this board over the competency the LA Kings head coach Todd McLellan. I believe this a fair debate with valid points on both sides. With that said a common refrain of McLellan's detractors is his lack of success in the playoffs accented by the reverse sweep of 2014. While the totality of his work in the playoffs bears criticism I do _not_ think the blame of the reverse sweep falls at his feet.

The San Jose sharks collapse can almost entirely be attributed to the injury Marc Edouard-Vlasic suffered in the first period of game 5. Vlasic was chosen for the Team Canada defense core in the 2014 Olympics a scant four months prior and was considered a premier shut down defenseman during this point of his career. He was replaced by rookie Matt Irwin whohad played only 38 NHL games at that point. Losing an elite Olympic level player drastically shifts how a series can go. If I remember correctly Vlasic's partner was Brent Burns during that series. Losing Vlasic forced Burns to stop being the offensive threat he could be because he no longer had the safety net of an elite stay at home defender as a partner.

Further, it is clear that the 2014 Kings were an elite team ... they won the Stanley Cup after all ... and elite teams take advantage of other teams weaknesses. Seeing the now gaping hole in San Jose's defense the Kings were able to control the remainder of the series.

Criticize McLellan all you want for a myriad of reasons ... but the reverse sweep should not be one of them.

I said in another post that it’s certainly not all on TMac. However the injury you described is when a coach earns his stripes. He adapts and tweaks things to do whatever it takes to win. Whilst believing the difference in leadership in the respective dressing rooms played a huge part you cannot completely absolve the coach any more than you can solely blame him.

Sutter would have told player X to go block a puck with his face to win a game and the player (that year at least) would have done it. I don’t think TMac makes that request or the SJ player would do it, certainly not that year. It’s an analogy before anyone takes me too literally… although that might actually be the year Greene took a puck to the head LOL.

TMac needs to show he can make strategic and tactical changes to win games In the post season. Trusting the system is fine in the regular season, but you have to be adaptable to win in the play-offs. I’m not saying he can’t btw, because the signing of Jim Hiller is him adapting by loosening the strings on the pp. so I hold out some hope. Yes, I have concerns but the genius move of moving QB to LW1 means I retain some trust.

I will add that after the debacle in Buffalo it really looked like he was starting to lose the room, even @GoldenBearHockey said something to that effect. However he turned it around and that rarely happens. That says a lot and now the buy in is definitely there.

This though will be the play offs he is judged by in LA and rightly so, but I’ll actually wait until after they complete.

 

[Seattle King]

Reverse sweep sounds too much like a football play.
I prefer the term "Gentleman's Sweep."
I am a gentleman, and thus a good sport. Why dont I spot you the first three games as a courtesy?

 

[Statto]

Knowing TM, I'm sure they lost 4 straight due to his OT deployment.

Given our performances in overtime do you seriously think it’s not fair to criticise him for not trying QB or Vilardi at some point? We’ve been poor and predictably so whilst 3-3. I don’t believe you don’t see it and have to assume you’re trying to provoke a response… & I just fell into your trap

 

[Eagle Fang]

This is a fair point. The only caveat I would make is that this board loves to point to the reverse sweep specifically as an item of McLellan's failures. He absolutely deserves some blame but I strongly disagree that he was a driving cause of it.

I actually agree with you. TMac certainly played his role in it, but he wasn't the guy blowing coverage, not scoring and getting deeked out his sack by Kopitar. Plus there was just something about that LA team which also factors into it. When the whole team decided it was time to go Alpha Male, SJ didn't stand a chance.

Also I think Claude Julien was the Bruins coach when they got revere swept by Philly. They went on to win the Cup the next year. So history only goes so far. His playoff history other than 1 Cup and 1 Finals is filled with failure too.

 

[Kingspiracy]

Reverse sweep sounds too much like a football play.
I prefer the term "Gentleman's Sweep."
I am a gentleman, and thus a good sport. Why dont I spot you the first three games as a courtesy?

Nah, it sounds more like a move from the Karate Kid. 'Sweep the leg!!!'

As for the op topic, losing Vlasic obviously hurt the Sharks because he was a very important player for them, but it was still an epic choke job.

Tmac is going to have that rep as a postseason choker until he wins it.

Kind of like that joke about the guy that jumps a goat (except he couldnt lose the rep)

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I think the thing is the reverse sweep didn't happen in a vacuum. Someone brought up Cassidy earlier and that was a one-off, not the worst in a long series of playoff failures. It was written on the Sharks' faces after game 5...they knew where this was going.

I'd be willing to absolve him of it if he didn't follow that performance up by having similar choke jobs on his next two teams but it's there, the stink of failure, and it's up to him to sort it out this postseason.