Player Discussion Tocchet What Is/How He Doing?

[krutovsdonut]

generally speaking, i think this team is like the kids in lord of the flies after they killed piggy. they desperately want to be rescued from the terrible habits they have formed while playing undisciplined inexperienced try hard when we're behind hockey and they want a father figure to impose that structure because they have completely lost it.

i see no sign tochett is implementing any ambitious system and he's not coaching hard in games. he looks ironically amused and detached to me. which is fair enough, but i would not show it. he's also not implementing a plan for the players to adopt, let alone the busy work i would expect to see a praecursor to that system. my impression is he is definitely not a strong systems coach like 95% of the top coaches in the league.

i assume he is instead trying to witch doctor all the players into their proper roles based on his own instinctive feel from his playing days and his limited coaching time (on bad teams). this is old school coaching and appropriate to a point. if he gives the players an individual role then there is a plan on an individual level and some accountability. but it will only work for a portion of the personnel so a lot of players will go.

i also see signs of kuzmenko being tried out for a scapegoat to encourage the others, which is the oldest old school babcock coach move ever. "fear this coach because if he is willing to ruin kuzmenko he will ruin you". i hope not, but stay tuned.

so not sure tochett is their guy, but he might be the right detached cool guy to preside over a brutal tear down.

just realized that my lotf analogy means bb was piggy.

 

[joelCAMEL]

Essentially you are saying this team has a country club attitude.

I just call it a losing culture and those are contagious and very hard to get rid of.

In both cases it is the players that need to be excised.

Poor practice habits? Green must have been a p***y cat and Boudreau too.

Do you know how much Tocchet sounds like Tortorella?

Last year Boudreau had the team winning 2 games to every one they lost immediately so I do know how much a coach can influence a team when that team is made to believe in a new voice.

The big talk around Tocchet is how he has the team playing SO MUCH BETTER 5 on 5 and how Tocchet is holding them accountable. But the PP and PK are now worse and there are even more goals scored against.

One thing about Tocchet I guess you will like is last night he said this team "needs to keep stripping this down until we get it right".

Last night Kuzmenko got 16:12, Myers got 19:51 and Stillman 18:07 and were either 0 +/- or +1 the right way?

In truth I never thought the team could catch Chicago but now with a couple more trades it is possible. I never even considered Bedard as a real possibility I was thinking just the better draft position for two picks, the Canucks 1rst and 2nd rounds this year.

GOD I HOPE THEY DON'T TRADE FOR CHYCHRUN, too expensive for a player with his injury history.

Unless i misread it, I thought the main point of your initial post was that you were upset about allowing Tocchet to be included in player trades ... which I still think you are over-reacting on.

Difference between Tocchet and Tortorella ... the current GM wanted Tocchet, Gillis did not want Tortorella.
Difference between Boudreau last season and this season in results ... significantly lower this season.

 

[Sinistril]

He's an absurd pick for head coach unless he's unwittingly being used to tank the team, which looks to be exactly what is happening. This is him in the honeymoon phase and the team is playing even worse. How often does that happen, if ever, with a new coach? I mean, I'm on board with management finding the most incompetent person possible to tank for bedard. Hopefully that's the plan and they didn't actually think he was a legit nhl coach.

 

[VanJack]

I see the Daily Faceoff is speculating that after only six games, some players are already on the outs with Tocchet. Most notably they cite OEL and Kuzmenko. But there could be others.

OEL doesn't surprise me. You could tell from the body language that he was less than enthralled with the Canucks hiring his old Arizona coach. I'm guessing they butted heads in the desert, as OEL's play started to decline and he was trying to play through a bunch of injuries.

I realize that players don't have to 'love their coach' to play well for him. But seriously.....after only six games?

Pretty sure that Tocchet's post game tirade about the Canucks needing to go back 'to grade school' to learn how to play defense, probably really grated on some of the players. It was demeaning imo.

I don't know what it is.....but when Boudreau expressed his exasperation in the post-game media scrums I'm sure the players accepted the criticism. But when Tocchet starts whining, it's just comes across as churlish and sarcastic.

Still can't grasp why the Canucks felt compelled to made a coaching change.....the season was done anyway. Why go through that all the melodrama with Boudreau? Dumb and dumber still rules in the front office.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I see the Daily Faceoff is speculating that after only six games, some players are already on the outs with Tocchet. Most notably they cite OEL and Kuzmenko. But there could be others.

OEL doesn't surprise me. You could tell from the body language that he was less than enthralled with the Canucks hiring his old Arizona coach. I'm guessing they butted heads in the desert, as OEL's play started to decline and he was trying to play through a bunch of injuries.

I realize that players don't have to 'love their coach' to play well for him. But seriously.....after only six games?

Pretty sure that Tocchet's post game tirade about the Canucks needing to go back 'to grade school' to learn how to play defense, probably really grated on some of the players. It was demeaning imo.

I don't know what it is.....but when Boudreau expressed his exasperation in the post-game media scrums I'm sure the players accepted the criticism. But when Tocchet starts whining, it's just comes across as churlish and sarcastic.

Still can't grasp why the Canucks felt compelled to made a coaching change.....the season was done anyway. Why go through that all the melodrama with Boudreau? Dumb and dumber still rules in the front office.

You seem to get easily offended...Tocchets post game comments about going back to basics were spot on..Well deserved...

The days of coddling these guys are over ..hopefully.

 

[VanJack]

You seem to get easily offended...Tocchets post game comments about going back to basics were spot on..Well deserved...

The days of coddling these guys are over ..hopefully.

Pretty obvious with each passing game that this team as it's currently constituted, isn't capable of playing 'Tocchet hockey".

A bunch more players will have to head out the door and be replaced for it to happen. Maybe that was plan by management all along--to figure who could play for this coach and who can't. And then gut the roster.

It could also be that Tocchet is little more than an 'interim coach' and the guy they're really grooming is Jeremy Colliton in Abbotsford. Would make sense that the young coach graduates with a lot of young guys he helped develop in the minors.

 

[tantalum]

I don't think he is currently coaching to win. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he is trying to lose, I just think his priority is to build in habits and expectations for next year.

He said as much when he took the job. The remainder of the season is dedicated to breaking bad habits and determining who can break them and who can’t.

If they get two points in a game then great but that’s not the priority.

Also do t believe reports of players being in the outs after a half dozen games. That’s simply nonsense. Kuzmenko responded with a good game last night and that’s what a coach is looking for. I don’t believe for a second Tocchet expects Kuzmenko to be like Stone on the defensive side of the puck. He just needs others on the top line to do some of the defensive lifting and not rely on Pettersson.

OEL? Who cares. He’s on the outs with the entire NHL…

 

[brock hughes007]

It does not matter who we have as a coach,,
management has had long enough to see we do not have the right players on this team.
I'm not a Toccett fan at all,,but him and Bruce have been given shit to work with.

 

[Sedinery]

Useless incompetent placeholder coach

Accomplished zip in his head coaching career yet he talks like he is Scotty Bowman

 

[Cancuks]

Tocchet is fully on board team tank. I'm 100% certain he agreed to it when they hired him. This is why we're seeing some strange lineup decisions and players ice time being cut all under the guise of players need to be better and play harder.

 

[sting101]

I see the Daily Faceoff is speculating that after only six games, some players are already on the outs with Tocchet. Most notably they cite OEL and Kuzmenko. But there could be others.

OEL doesn't surprise me. You could tell from the body language that he was less than enthralled with the Canucks hiring his old Arizona coach. I'm guessing they butted heads in the desert, as OEL's play started to decline and he was trying to play through a bunch of injuries.

I realize that players don't have to 'love their coach' to play well for him. But seriously.....after only six games?

Pretty sure that Tocchet's post game tirade about the Canucks needing to go back 'to grade school' to learn how to play defense, probably really grated on some of the players. It was demeaning imo.

I don't know what it is.....but when Boudreau expressed his exasperation in the post-game media scrums I'm sure the players accepted the criticism. But when Tocchet starts whining, it's just comes across as churlish and sarcastic.

Still can't grasp why the Canucks felt compelled to made a coaching change.....the season was done anyway. Why go through that all the melodrama with Boudreau? Dumb and dumber still rules in the front office.

Curious what your approach would have been if they just hired you?

How would you handle OEL Myers Boeser Kuzmenko Podkolzin etc or anyone not giving 100% or cheating offensively?

What would your MO be for the remainder of the year and what kind of philosophy/identitiy would you be trying to foster?

 

[VanJack]

Curious what your approach would have been if they just hired you?

How would you handle OEL Myers Boeser Kuzmenko Podkolzin etc or anyone not giving 100% or cheating offensively?

What would your MO be for the remainder of the year and what kind of philosophy/identitiy would you be trying to foster?

Lol!.....what does it matter what I think? I'm not the coach. But even I know that the slow-motion firing of Boudreau and the appointment of this guy with 30 games left in a lost season, was a really dumb move by management.

And speaking of management, if a bunch of players are consistently cheating and not giving 100 percent, then trade their ass out of town. But of course they can't....because these players have ironclad contracts with no move clauses and pernicious cap hits.

I'm going to make a sad prediction. Sooner or later a bunch of players will slip the word to management that 'it's either him or us'. And as we all know, you can't fire 20 players.

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

This thread title is giving me a seizure.

 

[arttk]

This thread title is giving me a seizure.

Why he doing?

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

Why he doing?

No for why knowing

 

[arttk]

No for why knowing

Who he doing?

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

Who he doing?

Hopefully Mrs. Tocchet.

 

[sting101]

Lol!.....what does it matter what I think? I'm not the coach. But even I know that the slow-motion firing of Boudreau and the appointment of this guy with 30 games left in a lost season, was a really dumb move by management.

And speaking of management, if a bunch of players are consistently cheating and not giving 100 percent, then trade their ass out of town. But of course they can't....because these players have ironclad contracts with no move clauses and pernicious cap hits.

I'm going to make a sad prediction. Sooner or later a bunch of players will slip the word to management that 'it's either him or us'. And as we all know, you can't fire 20 players.

well you are the one claiming he is doing it wrong? I'm just curious what doing it right by your accounts looks like?

Was it a dumb move by Calgary to bring in Sutter so he could hit the ground running the next season instead of spending training camp doing it?

Funny that you use "then trade their asses out of town" as the answer then criticize RT for being "churlish" and "demeaning" by holding players accountable for unacceptable play and getting upset that he may have alienated or hurt some of their feelings in doing so.

The same players that have mailed in more games making massive money that is acceptable are suddenly being protected by the kid gloves of VanJack? Really?

 

[LordBacon]

Different operator same tank.
Who gives a shit.
Keep losing

 

[Kshahdoo]

There are mostly 3 types of coaches in the NHL: great, good and typical ones.

Great coaches invent new systems based on players they have. Good example was Scotty Bowman. Canadian coach to the core, when he got all those great Soviet/Russian players he made Russian Five and let them play their hockey, basically pioneering modern approach to the game.

Goad coaches don't refuse to play their favorite systems but they try to modify them based on what players they have. Good example is probably Joel Quenneville.

And then there are typical NHL coaches who neither invent new systems nor modify their old ones but try instead to squeeze players they have into systems they love. No matter what. I'm pretty sure Tocchet is exactly this type of coaches...

 

[Jay Cee]

Good tank commander.

I came here to say this. I like how he basically said his first day he had his assistants out making relationships with the players cause he didn't do the touchy feely stuff.

What a soul sucking decision as a coach though. I have no optimism whatsoever. I think he is a mid to bottom tier coach in the league. He also seems like a total prick.

 

[Diversification]

well you are the one claiming he is doing it wrong? I'm just curious what doing it right by your accounts looks like?

Was it a dumb move by Calgary to bring in Sutter so he could hit the ground running the next season instead of spending training camp doing it?

Funny that you use "then trade their asses out of town" as the answer then criticize RT for being "churlish" and "demeaning" by holding players accountable for unacceptable play and getting upset that he may have alienated or hurt some of their feelings in doing so.

The same players that have mailed in more games making massive money that is acceptable are suddenly being protected by the kid gloves of VanJack? Really?

This year’s Canucks is the Kobayashi Maru. There is no correct way to deal with this mess. Just use it as an evaluation period, try and help those that can be helped before the Klingons inevitably destroy the ship.

 

[TruGr1t]

Cam Charron doesn't agree.



Personally, I'm seeing a slight improvement but not anything that's actually making any sort of difference.

That's because the same guys are largely running the Xs and Os. Tocchet baldly stated when he took over he wasn't a "whiteboard guy" and would largely leave the play-by-play to Yeo et al. Rutherford and Allvin already basically had their staff in place before Tocchet even arrived.

 

[Gurn]

That's because the same guys are largely running the Xs and Os. Tocchet baldly stated when he took over he wasn't a "whiteboard guy" and would largely leave the play-by-play to Yeo et al. Rutherford and Allvin already basically had their staff in place before Tocchet even arrived.

I thought the perceived problem with Bruce was he was weak with 'the white board/structure stuff'
seems rather silly to replace him with a guy that admits to, actually, having that problem.

 

[Josepho]

I don't think there's enough sample size to draw conclusions here, but I was curious about the difference between Tocchet and Boudreau considering score effects, so here they are if anyone cares enough to see. NST is being a bit glitchy with the stats loading so please correct me if you're adamant that there's an error.

Team Stats after January 23rd: Team Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick
Team Stats before January 23rd: Team Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

While Tied, All Strengths
Boudreau - 34.65 SA/60 (28th)
Tocchet - 26.61 SA/60 (4th)
Boudreau - 3.22 xGA/60 (24th)
Tocchet - 2.19 xGA/60 (3rd)
Boudreau - 30.92 SCA/60 (20th)
Tocchet - 23.07 SCA/60 (3rd)

Within One, All Strengths
Boudreau - 33.18 SA/60 (26th)
Tocchet - 26.97 SA/60 (3rd)
Boudreau - 3.28 xGA/60 (T-24th)
Tocchet - 2.73 xGA/60 (T-7th)
Boudreau - 31.33 SCA/60 (22nd)
Tocchet - 26.31 SCA/60 (4th)

Again, we need more sample size, but basically everything (offensive metrics too) points to Tocchet being an upgrade. And yeah, goaltending continues to be unquestionably the biggest issue with this team.