Tim Thomas or Roberto Luongo & all goalie trade discussion

[Bomber0104]

When Raycroft was winning 37 games, how strong was the rest of the conference?

Not only did the LEafs have Sundin an co infront of Raycroft but PIT, and WAS still Sucked. ATL sucked. NYI Sucked. etc. Basically there were a bunch of teams that were available to be beaten up on.

That situation does not exist anymore.

While the Muskoka 5 hindered the LEafs progression into a rebuild other teams were stockpiling youth that has since come to fruition.

Even with LUongo I doubt this team makes the playoffs.

But your argument is is a smokescreen. THe League has evolved and changed and in the East in particular has overall become a much stronger group of teams.

The cutoff for the playoffs remained the same and coming out of the lockout offence was at its highest.

My argument is a smokescreen? Perhaps make a counterpoint before you just insult me. Funny because that seems like exactly what your trying to do.

The argument and logic is perfectly sound.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Nope. Goaltending is the biggest issue. They won more once they got solid goaltending.

It's not the only issue, but it's easily the biggest.

I'm going to lean a little with Bomber this time around. The entire
team, played no D under Wilson.

It doesn't matter, who or how. If the GA is cut down significantly,
we'll be just fine.

 

[Bomber0104]

I'm going to lean a little with Bomber this time around. The entire
team, played no D under Wilson.

Thanks for the support.

I think this should be pretty well common knowledge for people who watch hockey (not just Leafs)

It doesn't matter, who or how. If the GA is cut down significantly,
we'll be just fine.

That is going to require guys like Kessel to play defence and that in turn will result in a cut in GF.

 

[Ruski]

Our goal is the Cup...there is no other reason to acquire Roberto Luongo and his contract other than to win a Cup....this is the goal of every team and we should make it ours as well.

Can you see Roberto Luongo winning a Cup in Toronto? Didn't work behind a great team in the Canucks...why would it work when you acknowledge the Leafs team is not very good at all...

You see what I'm getting at Roger?

Carey Price could only lead the Habs in third last.

The advantage of course is that he is very young and plenty of years ahead of him and Montreal's management to give him a team to play behind.

Luongo is 33 and realistically only has a few good seasons left and I am afraid by the time the Leafs position themselves to even come close to the Pat Quinn / Early JFJ / Sundin teams we had...he will be expired and thus no more effective than Andrew Raycroft.

Why is it so hard to imagine that Luongo may bring pure "confidence" to the team. How do you think our defence feels when the last few years we have been letting pucks in like its an empty goal.

An above avg goalie will instil confidence in the entire team. Loosing sucks, at any level of team sport and when you go through 7+ years of it, there aren't too many players left who remember what winning is like.

Luongo can bring that stability now, at a presumably low cost up front. To discount the fact that he COULD bring us to the conference/cup finals is just silly. He IS that good, but not the only piece of course.

If we can get 3-5 years of solid playoff appearances out of Luongo, then i think its a great deal. The amount of experience and confidence that can bring to the rest of out team, especially young guys is huge! It amazing how a bit of it can turn a franchise right around.

 

[CerebralDevil]

The Leafs played stronger when they had confidence is their goalie (Reimer) when he was out they played very tenatively and scared. When Gustavson was in they worried to much and scared to allow teams to take shots. The team scrambled and made to many mistakes trying to do too much. With Reimer in they looked relaxed and didnt scramble, feeling confident with who was in net. If Luongo was here the team would be real confident again and play without worry.

 

[Bomber0104]

Why is it so hard to imagine that Luongo may bring pure "confidence" to the team. How do you think our defence feels when the last few years we have been letting pucks in like its an empty goal.

Defence let in more goals with Raycroft. Didn't stop the team from winning more.

If our defence are such babies that they can't play proper hockey because Reimer's hurting their feelings they shouldn't be on our team.

Sorry but we require proper levels of testosterone here.

An above avg goalie will instil confidence in the entire team. Loosing sucks, at any level of team sport and when you go through 7+ years of it, there aren't too many players left who remember what winning is like.

Like I said, Raycroft was worse. And we won more.

The priority should be fixing the players playing in front of the goalie first (rebuild).

In case you haven't noticed...the Leafs have not been rebuilding now or ever. They never have. Always traded their building blocks away.

Luongo can bring that stability now, at a presumably low cost up front. To discount the fact that he COULD bring us to the conference/cup finals is just silly. He IS that good, but not the only piece of course.

If it's such a low cost, there is a reason for that and that is because people understand that he is 33 years old and could not get it done behind an excellent team in the Canucks.

If he could not get it done there, there is absolutely positively no reason to suggest he can get it done here.

What is going to happen if he is acquired, mark my words everyone, is that Lungo will transition from an elite goaltender to an average one to what some Leafs fans refer to as "stopgap" players.

As a "stopgap" to what...I don't know.

That's the trouble with this word. There is no bridge to the next better player.

If we can get 3-5 years of solid playoff appearances out of Luongo, then i think its a great deal. The amount of experience and confidence that can bring to the rest of out team, especially young guys is huge! It amazing how a bit of it can turn a franchise right around.

I don't agree at all because the goal should be the Stanley Cup and not just showing up to get our butts kicked...

So then what?

We make the playoffs, Lungo takes us no where...then what?

Then we are left to the same devices we currently have NOW..looking for an elite goalie once again, stuck with a huge contract, and watching the Gardiner/Kadri/Frattin whoever it is still playing for the Canucks.

What would be the point of it all?

Could we not have just spent time patching other holes with young elite players like Edmonton? Then later blow our load when we actually have a decent team?

 

[Bomber0104]

Why don't we all just lay our cards on the table here?

For all those that actually want to have Luongo traded here, be honest, do you actually see him leading the Leafs to a Stanley Cup?

Or do you only want to see the Leafs mortgage their future because it's been too long since the Leafs have been in the playoffs, and you don't care how they do it, what they spend, who they trade, you just want to see them play a round of seven?

Please, a show of hands..

 

[charliolemieux]

The cutoff for the playoffs remained the same and coming out of the lockout offence was at its highest.

My argument is a smokescreen? Perhaps make a counterpoint before you just insult me. Funny because that seems like exactly what your trying to do.

The argument and logic is perfectly sound.

No to be perfectly sound you would have to acknowledge 2 things.

1. Raycroft won when there were still teams that were complete disasters and with SUndin as a #1C comparatively the Leafs were a much stronger team.

2. That the rest of the conference has improved dramatically while the Leafs got screwed by the Muskoka 5 and have been playing catchup since sundin retired.


That means you can't be comparing Reimer to Raycroft because they are from 2 different worlds.



I do agree with you to not bring in Luongo. I don't think Luongo is enough to even get this team in the playoffs.

Two years ago maybe he would have been enough, but not now.

Compared to 2 years ago:
FLA is way stronger. CAR is way stronger. NYI is way stronger. WPG is way Stronger.
BUF is way Stronger. OTT is Stronger.

I think the biggest thing people miss is that even though the Leafs are in way better shap under burke the rest of the teams had a head start and the Leafs are still trying to catch up.

We're close, but not quite there yet.

 

[topched]

Why don't we all just lay our cards on the table here?

For all those that actually want to have Luongo traded here, be honest, do you actually see him leading the Leafs to a Stanley Cup?

Or do you only want to see the Leafs mortgage their future because it's been too long since the Leafs have been in the playoffs, and you don't care how they do it, what they spend, who they trade, you just want to see them play a round of seven?

Please, a show of hands..

Do I think Luongo is going to "lead" the leafs to the cup? No

Do I think Luongo can be a valuable piece on a Stanley Cup winning team? Absolutely, he got his team to within one game of that

Do I think the rumoured pieces, Frattin/Bozak/Kadri are going to be pieces of comparable value to a Cup winning team? No

Why keep non-impact players on a roster that will finish in the 20-25 range in the standings?

 

[topched]

For all the non-luongo proponents out there...

Do you think Reimer/Scrivens can actually get this roster to the playoffs?

If not, do you think we can viably attract high calibre FA's in the offseason?

If not, are you prepared to move pieces like Lupul, Grabovski and Liles in order to improve our tanking chances?

 

[Bomber0104]

Do I think Luongo is going to "lead" the leafs to the cup? No

Thennnnnn.....what's the point?

If this is what you think then why bother posting your "rationalization"?

If you don't feel the Leafs can win the Cup with him? Why get him? Why pay? Why take the contract?

Do I think Luongo can be a valuable piece on a Stanley Cup winning team? Absolutely, he got his team to within one game of that

Oh nevermind.

I guess you do think so.

Well I don't.

The Leafs are no where near the caliber of the Canucks of any version of the past three-four years and if he could get it done with them, there is absolutely not one single reason to suggest he can do it with the Leafs.

Do I think the rumoured pieces, Frattin/Bozak/Kadri are going to be pieces of comparable value to a Cup winning team? No

That wasn't a question. There are obvious impacts of a Luongo acquisition that extend beyond the up-front acquisition costs. That's why they are low to begin with...because you are bearing costs that go beyond this year, the next, the next, the next, for the next nine years or whatever.

Why keep non-impact players on a roster that will finish in the 20-25 range in the standings?

Because you can pick up a wicked talent like Sean Monahan/Jonathan Drouin/Seth Jones (impact) keep Kadri/Frattin/Gardiner, and likely do the same next year until you have the pieces necessary to warrant the purchase of a goalie?

 

[Bomber0104]

No to be perfectly sound you would have to acknowledge 2 things.

This post is ridiculous.

1. Raycroft won when there were still teams that were complete disasters and with SUndin as a #1C comparatively the Leafs were a much stronger team.

The playoff cutoff was the same.

You are now resorting to bashing the entire Eastern Conference because you can't accept how bad the Leafs are.

New low charlo.

2. That the rest of the conference has improved dramatically while the Leafs got screwed by the Muskoka 5 and have been playing catchup since sundin retired.

The playoff cutoff is the same.

Again, bashing the whole conference is a new low. Usually you just keep it to one or two teams, players, or GM's.

You've now tackled the whole conference.

Congrats.

That means you can't be comparing Reimer to Raycroft because they are from 2 different worlds.

No they aren't.

At all.

 

[Bomber0104]

For all the non-luongo proponents out there...

Do you think Reimer/Scrivens can actually get this roster to the playoffs?

No but I am quite content because using them in net won't cost a package of valuable players and they are not on contract for millions and millions of dollars until they are 42. They also will allow us to rebuild properly and pick up elite talents in the drafts in the coming future.

If not, do you think we can viably attract high calibre FA's in the offseason?

I would prefer to actually rebuild and not resort to desperate band aids remedies.

If not, are you prepared to move pieces like Lupul, Grabovski and Liles in order to improve our tanking chances?

Maybe, maybe not.

Let's see how terrible we really are.

I mean we finished 5th last, this past season.

Let's just wait and see.

 

[charliolemieux]

For all the non-luongo proponents out there...

Do you think Reimer/Scrivens can actually get this roster to the playoffs?

Nope.

But I don't think Luongo would be able to do so either.

If not, do you think we can viably attract high calibre FA's in the offseason?

DRaft MacKinnon, resign Lupul, and we will see what UFA's want to come here.

If not, are you prepared to move pieces like Lupul, Grabovski and Liles in order to improve our tanking chances?

Liles sure. That is what he is here for. Let's hope we can put him with a Connolly or Lombardi and get a 1st in return. Then that team miss the playoffs and win the lottery.

That is best case scenario. Get 1st overall with 13th pick, lotto win. Then finish last and get the 2nd overall pick.

 

[topched]

Thennnnnn.....what's the point?

If this is what you think then why bother posting your "rationalization"?

If you don't feel the Leafs can win the Cup with him? Why get him? Why pay? Why take the contract?





Oh nevermind.

I guess you do think so.

Well I don't.

The Leafs are no where near the caliber of the Canucks of any version of the past three-four years and if he could get it done with them, there is absolutely not one single reason to suggest he can do it with the Leafs.



That wasn't a question. There are obvious impacts of a Luongo acquisition that extend beyond the up-front acquisition costs. That's why they are low to begin with...because you are bearing costs that go beyond this year, the next, the next, the next, for the next nine years or whatever.



Because you can pick up a wicked talent like Sean Monahan/Jonathan Drouin/Seth Jones (impact) keep Kadri/Frattin/Gardiner, and likely do the same next year until you have the pieces necessary to warrant the purchase of a goalie?

You act like this team won't be able to get better beyond this year. Luongo is a valuable piece, but needs to be surrounded by other valuable pieces, top tier FA's, supplemented by the development of young players.

You also seem to think all these young players will just develop fast and be ready to make a run. Understand that any guys you select in the draft won't be come impact players until 2-3 years down the road. Even RNH wasn't a world-beater this year, he struggled at times and was an above average NHL forward when you consider his total game. At that point you've got expiring contracts like Kessel and Phaneuf, and likely have already let Lupul walk. How do you replace those guys? Better yet, how do you convince them to sign on for another 2-3 years of tanking?

 

[Ruski]

Defence let in more goals with Raycroft. Didn't stop the team from winning more.

If our defence are such babies that they can't play proper hockey because Reimer's hurting their feelings they shouldn't be on our team.

Sorry but we require proper levels of testosterone here.



Like I said, Raycroft was worse. And we won more.

The priority should be fixing the players playing in front of the goalie first (rebuild).

In case you haven't noticed...the Leafs have not been rebuilding now or ever. They never have. Always traded their building blocks away.



If it's such a low cost, there is a reason for that and that is because people understand that he is 33 years old and could not get it done behind an excellent team in the Canucks.

If he could not get it done there, there is absolutely positively no reason to suggest he can get it done here.

What is going to happen if he is acquired, mark my words everyone, is that Lungo will transition from an elite goaltender to an average one to what some Leafs fans refer to as "stopgap" players.

As a "stopgap" to what...I don't know.

That's the trouble with this word. There is no bridge to the next better player.



I don't agree at all because the goal should be the Stanley Cup and not just showing up to get our butts kicked...

So then what?

We make the playoffs, Lungo takes us no where...then what?

Then we are left to the same devices we currently have NOW..looking for an elite goalie once again, stuck with a huge contract, and watching the Gardiner/Kadri/Frattin whoever it is still playing for the Canucks.

What would be the point of it all?

Could we not have just spent time patching other holes with young elite players like Edmonton? Then later blow our load when we actually have a decent team?

Ok ill bite, thanks for the detailed response.

Here are my thoughts (sorry don't know how to easily break the quotes down like you did though):

1. There are more than one way to build a winning team. You look at what you got and go from there...not everyone has a Crosby/Malkin combo to build from.

2. I agree that our defence ain't great and in fact our best players are the young guys (Gardiner, Gunner, Rielly). What i am suggesting is that human nature, testosterone or not adapts to surrounding conditions. Its hard to imagine what winning and/or playoffs are like if you spend your entire NHL carreer only in the regular season.

3. You are right, you could have a ****tier goalie (i.e. Raycroft) and still make the playoffs. Here is another good example, Osgood. Was probably just an avg goalie on most other teams but with Detroit he won multiple cups. I agree with this but right now what are our other options exactly? Its not like we have other #1 goalies to consider or #1 centers floating around waiting to sign with us.

4. I have noticed what we have been doing, i am old enough to have paid attention for 15+ years quite closely, but the problem with just blaming things on the past is that you never end up doing anything about it, so lets just come-up with a plan for the future and lets not worry about what happened before.

5. Luongo is low cost for multiple reason and the leafs are one of the only teams in a financial position to take a chance. As far as i understand, we could buy him out after 2013-2014, IF he flops completely and the only penalty would be $ out of Rogers/Bell pockets. How many dollars depends how the rules are laid out because some of it may actually just reduce the $'s we send for revenue sharing to poor teams.

6. I strongly believe that building a winning team is a multi-year venture. I don't have the stats but i bet not very many teams won a championship the 1st year they made the playoffs after missing them for 7+ years! Flukes do happen but realistically, we need multiple competitive playoff appearances to build the confidence and experience in the young guys to go for the cup. IF Luongo can get us into the playoffs for 3-6 years and then transition into a 50/50 split with a young goalie for another few years, i would consider that a success. Its much easier to plan to acquire and/or draft several high-end goalie prospects when you have 5+ years to find them.

7. Mark my words (my personal opinion ofcouse, i am not suggesting i see the future), IF Luongo comes to toronto, he will stabilize the net for us and that will translate into better performances by other team-mates (above expectations). It comes down to how you view sports and the difference between good players and great players, good teams and champions. I believe that the "mental" part of sport plays a much greater role that most believe. What i see with Luongo is an opportunity to vastly improve our teams "mental" side of the game, boost that confidence and the differences in individuals will be dramatic!

8. Just reading this last point about "Gardiner/Kadri/Frattin playing for the Canucks" ... I never suggested we trade those guys. Bozak + 2nd rounder or Kadri perhaps but not Gardiner + Frattin +, etc. Canucks may ask for a goalie anyway, so Reimer seems like a valid target to backup Schnieder over there.

9. Edmonton has been piss poor for sooo many years, not every hockey market can do that. Detroit has been competitive for decades without tanking just to rebuild, so i am not a fan of that strategy. Drafting is another crapshoot and there is a reason why Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos are considered generational tallent. We would be lucky to see 1 guy like those 3 drafted in the next 5 years!

10. Final point - By trading for Luongo we also say that we are serious about competing now and not in some number of years. So all those fans who are saying "lets hold out until July 1 so we can sign Getzlaf & Perry"....why would they want to even talk to the Leafs if we don't plan to compete next year??? Two guys in the prime will NOT go to a team rebuilding and hoping to compete in the "near future".

Anyway, nice talking hockey again, I may not rush out to blow my $ on leafs tickets or merchandise anytime soon but doesn't mean i won't watch the games. Go Leafs Go!

 

[Bomber0104]

You act like this team won't be able to get better beyond this year. Luongo is a valuable piece, but needs to be surrounded by other valuable pieces, top tier FA's, supplemented by the development of young players.

You also seem to think all these young players will just develop fast and be ready to make a run. Understand that any guys you select in the draft won't be come impact players until 2-3 years down the road. Even RNH wasn't a world-beater this year, he struggled at times and was an above average NHL forward when you consider his total game. At that point you've got expiring contracts like Kessel and Phaneuf, and likely have already let Lupul walk. How do you replace those guys? Better yet, how do you convince them to sign on for another 2-3 years of tanking?

It took Vancouver years to build a team even before trading for Luongo in the first place.

I am willing to be patient with young talents like Morgan Rielly.

I am not willing to be held hostage by bums like Kessel, Phaneuf, and Lupul who led us absolutely no where. They can stay or they can go.

In other words I don't care to replace them.

Burke should be fired. Then maybe they would stay. Better chance probably.

 

[topched]

Nope.

But I don't think Luongo would be able to do so either.

DRaft MacKinnon, resign Lupul, and we will see what UFA's want to come here.



Liles sure. That is what he is here for. Let's hope we can put him with a Connolly or Lombardi and get a 1st in return. Then that team miss the playoffs and win the lottery.

That is best case scenario. Get 1st overall with 13th pick, lotto win. Then finish last and get the 2nd overall pick.

Haha if we're going to get into low percentage scenarios...

Would you honestly not prefer:

Trading for Luongo, finishing in the 7-10 range.

Retaining our first round pick and selecting in the 13-16 range

Signing Getzlaf + Perry, retaining Lupul

Go into the season with Morgan Rielly ready to step in?

 

[charliolemieux]

This post is ridiculous.


The playoff cutoff was the same.

You are now resorting to bashing the entire Eastern Conference because you can't accept how bad the Leafs are.

New low charlo.


The playoff cutoff is the same.

Again, bashing the whole conference is a new low. Usually you just keep it to one or two teams, players, or GM's.

You've now tackled the whole conference.

Congrats.




No they aren't.

At all.

If you can't agree that most of the conference is much stronger than it was 4 years ago then you have zero objectivity.

Maybe you should actually look around the rest of the conference.

 

[4evaBlue]

For all the non-luongo proponents out there...

Do you think Reimer/Scrivens can actually get this roster to the playoffs?

Probably not, depending on how effective Carlyle's system is going to be. If, on top of that, our secondary scoring shows up to start the season this time around, it's not a far stretch for us to make the playoffs.

If not, do you think we can viably attract high calibre FA's in the offseason?

They go where the money is. TO will be in a decent position to offer great contracts with the new CBA.

If not, are you prepared to move pieces like Lupul, Grabovski and Liles in order to improve our tanking chances?

Tanking chances? Hell no. If those pieces are moved, I want roster players in return. Trade from position of strength (perimeter snipers, puck moving D) to position of weakness (size/grit/net presence, goaltending, playmaking centers, etc). Lupul stays put.

 

[Bomber0104]

If you can't agree that most of the conference is much stronger than it was 4 years ago then you have zero objectivity.

Maybe you should actually look around the rest of the conference.

I see the same cutoff for making the playoffs.

It's no different.

You only have to have between 92-94 points.

It's the same.

 

[Bomber0104]

Haha if we're going to get into low percentage scenarios...

Would you honestly not prefer:

Trading for Luongo, finishing in the 7-10 range.

Retaining our first round pick and selecting in the 13-16 range

Signing Getzlaf + Perry, retaining Lupul

Go into the season with Morgan Rielly ready to step in?

You think too highly of the Leafs in my opinion.

 

[charliolemieux]

Haha if we're going to get into low percentage scenarios...

Would you honestly not prefer:

Trading for Luongo, finishing in the 7-10 range.

Retaining our first round pick and selecting in the 13-16 range

Signing Getzlaf + Perry, retaining Lupul

Go into the season with Morgan Rielly ready to step in?

Will you guys foget the ****ing UFA'S!!!!!!!

Only a small percentage of the best make to UFA in their first shot.

Sign Lupul, take the top 3 pick, and then see if VAN buys out Luongo.

Then worry about UFA's.

One of whom may be Luongo himself.

Why do you want to **** yourself out of a top pick and a bunch of top prospects for a guy you will get cheaper or for nothing 48games from tonight?

 

[Bomber0104]

Ok ill bite, thanks for the detailed response.

I'm honestly to tired of typing to respond.

You guys know how I feel.

I know many feel the same way.

I'll jump back in this convo another time (I'll read your response tmrw).

 

[Ruski]

Will you guys foget the ****ing UFA'S!!!!!!!

Only a small percentage of the best make to UFA in their first shot.

Sign Lupul, take the top 3 pick, and then see if VAN buys out Luongo.

Then worry about UFA's.

One of whom may be Luongo himself.

Why do you want to **** yourself out of a top pick and a bunch of top prospects for a guy you will get cheaper or for nothing 48games from tonight?

I don't think any Luongo supporters here advocate trading 1st rounders or our core young guys. Bozak, kadri, reimer, macarthur are more likely candidates.

Vancouver ownership WILL NOT buyout Luongo. They are not anywhere near the financial position of the Leafs, which is why it makes way more sense for us to take him on for this 1.5 seasons and evaluate after 2013/2014 with an option to buyout then.