Three or more 50 Goal Seasons

[SnowblindNYR]

Not super related to this thread, but what a bummer a couple of years ago Ovechkin getting 49 was. This would have been a super impressive record to have by himself.

 

[Duffy13]

Besides Kerr's injuries, he suffered mentally a lot after his wife died suddenly due to infection a couple weeks after their child was born. He couldn't do it anymore, which is understandable, and explains a lot that the injuries don't.

 

[VanIslander]

Why 3?

 

[MadLuke]

Why 3?

My guess would be that 2 become a bit too common (both the number of player and those will not end up in the hall)

NHL Records

records.nhl.com

Matthews never scoring 50 without reaching 60 is currently a strange trivia

 

[carjackmalone]

Pierre Larouche is the only player to score 48 goals with 3 teams 50 with Pittsburgh 50 with Montreal and rangers 48

Rick Martin had two and 4 consecutive post season all star selections

 

[pandro]

Had Tim Kerr been luckier with injuries, stringing together 7 consecutive 50+ goal-scoring seasons seems entirely plausible for him. It is also more likely than not he'd reach 60 goals in both 1986 and 1987 had he played full regular seasons.

 

[TheStatican]

Had Tim Kerr been luckier with injuries, stringing together 7 consecutive 50+ goal-scoring seasons seems entirely plausible for him. It is also more likely than not he'd reach 60 goals in both 1986 and 1987 had he played full regular seasons.

Which would have put him in a select group of only 10 players to do such. He may also have taken the crown as the greatest power play goal scorer of all time, or at least second behind Ovechkin. Even now, his single-season total of 34 power play goals stands the test of time.

 

[TheStatican]

Aside from Kerr, the other most under-appreciated player on the OP's list has got to be Michel Goulet who might also have had two 60g years if not for losing some time due to a couple of minor injuries. Nobody seems to care or know that he was the number #3 goal scorer over a 15 year period of time or that he would have a scoring title to his name without Gretzky when he popped in 122pts in '84(in only 75gm).

Honorable mention to Robitaille as well in this regard.

 

[Staniowski]

LeClair was quite a lot better than Kerr and Vaive, both of whom have zero chance of making the Hall. I think LeClair will likely be inducted. In addition to his years in Philly, he was a significant star for Team USA in best-on-best tournaments.

 

[lextune]

Why 3?

One 50 goal season has been done by 99 players, many of whom would never be thought of as hall of fame players.

The same can be said of players that reached the milestone twice. Add in a third season and the list drops to 21 players, the overwhelming majority of which are hall of fame players.

 

[Midnight Judges]

During Wayne Gretzky's first 15 seasons in the NHL, there were 101 50-goal seasons by other players.

During Alex Ovechkin's first 15 seasons in the NHL, there were 14 50-goal seasons by other players.

101 to 14.

Treating this threshold as if it is equivalent in both eras is not equitable.

 

[lextune]

During Wayne Gretzky's first 15 seasons in the NHL, there were 101 50-goal seasons by other players.

During Alex Ovechkin's first 15 seasons in the NHL, there were 14 50-goal seasons by other players.

101 to 14.

Treating this threshold as if it is equivalent in both eras is not equitable.

This does seem notable. But it is also worth noting that Gretzky was putting up goal totals like 92, 87, 73, 71 when his contemporaries were putting their 50 goal seasons.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Gretzky himself probably created 10% of those 50-goal years himself haha

 

[The Panther]

Treating this threshold as if it is equivalent in both eras is not equitable.

I haven't seen a single poster here treating it as if it is equivalent in both eras....?

That being said, the difference in the accomplishment between 1980-1995 and 2006-2021 is not as big as the frequency of occurrence (114 to 14 or whatever) makes it sound. I mean, a 50-goal scorer in 1987 was considered a super-elite goal scorer, just as a 50-goal scorer was considered super-elite in 2019.

Playing in the period 1997-98 through 2003-04, and playing in the period around 2009-10 through 2017-18 meant it was very, very difficult for even top scorers to accumulate 50+ in a single season, sure.

But at the same time, it's not like a 60-goal season suddenly became the threshold of elite in the mid-1980s, either. In the entire decade of the 1980s, there were only nine 60-goal player-seasons that weren't by Gretzky himself or enabled by Gretzky (Kurri x 2, Nicholls x 1). There were only seven in total if we further take out Mario.

I dunno, to me 50 goals is always the marker of super-elite as a goal-scorer, from 1971 or whatever to today. This of course doesn't mean that, in certain periods, a 42-goal scorer isn't super-elite also...

 

[Midnight Judges]

I haven't seen a single poster here treating it as if it is equivalent in both eras....?

It seems to me the entire thread is based on that assumption, otherwise we'd be using hockey reference's adjusted stats (which are far more indicative than raw stats) or some other standard aside from raw stats.

That being said, the difference in the accomplishment between 1980-1995 and 2006-2021 is not as big as the frequency of occurrence (114 to 14 or whatever) makes it sound.

It is precisely that big, because that is precisely the data.

15 years is a huge sample size. It's thousands of player seasons in both cases - more than enough to reasonably establish scarcity.

If anything it understates the difference because there were nearly 50% more players and nearly 50% more teams and nearly 50% more top line minutes of playing time to go around and therefore significantly more opportunities for 50 goal seasons from 2005-2019, yet it still only happened 1/5th-1/7th as frequently as in the 80s and early 90s.

I mean, a 50-goal scorer in 1987 was considered a super-elite goal scorer, just as a 50-goal scorer was considered super-elite in 2019.

You started your post by claiming nobody is treating them as equivalent and then you go on to claim they are in the same general category.

A desirable thing that happens 101 times is generally not going to be the same level of elite as a desirable thing that happens 14 times. One of these things is generally going to be significantly more exclusive than the other.

But at the same time, it's not like a 60-goal season suddenly became the threshold of elite in the mid-1980s, either. In the entire decade of the 1980s, there were only nine 60-goal player-seasons that weren't by Gretzky himself or enabled by Gretzky (Kurri x 2, Nicholls x 1). There were only seven in total if we further take out Mario.

Yet 9 is far closer to 14 than 101 is to 14, eh?

If anything, you've shown that 60 goals in the 1980s is more equivalent to 50 goals in the post lockout years - especially if league size and player numbers are factored in - in which case it maps almost perfectly.

 

[MS]

LeClair was quite a lot better than Kerr and Vaive, both of whom have zero chance of making the Hall. I think LeClair will likely be inducted. In addition to his years in Philly, he was a significant star for Team USA in best-on-best tournaments.

Yeah, Leclair is a HHOFer to me.

He has the peak value - 5x post-season AS, leading NHL goal scorer over a 5-year period - and he has a Cup ring and huge performances for the US at the 1996 World Cup and for the Silver Medal team at the 2002 Olympics.

Really the only thing he didn't do was hang around to compile 500 goals/1000 points. Like, does anyone actually think that Dave Andreychuk > John Leclair?

 

[The Panther]

It seems to me the entire thread is based on that assumption, otherwise we'd be using hockey reference's adjusted stats (which are far more indicative than raw stats) or some other standard aside from raw stats.

We can talk about the numbers, sure, but nobody is going to seriously use Hockey Reference's "adjusted stats" as an actual stat. They are wonky as hell.

You started your post by claiming nobody is treating them as equivalent and then you go on to claim they are in the same general category.

They are in the same general category. As I said, in 1987 a 50-goal scorer was considered very elite. In 2019, a 50-goal scorer was considered very elite. See how it's the same category?

Obviously, there have been periods of time in which 50-goal seasons were much rarer (notably DPE and c.2011 to 2018). But even in higher scoring periods, 50-goal seasons were 50-goal seasons. They were very impressive.

We can't just take numbers of 'X' occurring in different seasons and then conclude that it's that many times harder / easier across seasons / eras.

For example, in the first year I sort of followed the NHL (1986-87) there were five 50-goal scorers, topping out at 62 goals. A year ago (2022-23), there were five 50-goal scorers, topping out at 64. It is not logical to blindly conclude that it was 'easier' to score 64 goals in 2023 than in 1987.

To put it another way, if there were eight times more 50-goal scorers in one long era than another long era, it doesn't logically follow that a 50-goal season was eight times 'easier' or less impressive in the earlier era. If that was how it worked, then the standard for an elite goal scorer in the early/mid-1980s would have been 70 goals or something, and that was definitely not the case.

Anyway, I'm not talking about the numbers analysis; I'm talking about the popular perception at the time.

 

[Offtheboard412]

We can talk about the numbers, sure, but nobody is going to seriously use Hockey Reference's "adjusted stats" as an actual stat. They are wonky as hell.

They are in the same general category. As I said, in 1987 a 50-goal scorer was considered very elite. In 2019, a 50-goal scorer was considered very elite. See how it's the same category?

Obviously, there have been periods of time in which 50-goal seasons were much rarer (notably DPE and c.2011 to 2018). But even in higher scoring periods, 50-goal seasons were 50-goal seasons. They were very impressive.

We can't just take numbers of 'X' occurring in different seasons and then conclude that it's that many times harder / easier across seasons / eras.

For example, in the first year I sort of followed the NHL (1986-87) there were five 50-goal scorers, topping out at 62 goals. A year ago (2022-23), there were five 50-goal scorers, topping out at 64. It is not logical to blindly conclude that it was 'easier' to score 64 goals in 2023 than in 1987.

To put it another way, if there were eight times more 50-goal scorers in one long era than another long era, it doesn't logically follow that a 50-goal season was eight times 'easier' or less impressive in the earlier era. If that was how it worked, then the standard for an elite goal scorer in the early/mid-1980s would have been 70 goals or something, and that was definitely not the case.

Anyway, I'm not talking about the numbers analysis; I'm talking about the popular perception at the time.

Perception often lags behind the reality of the times though. The same way a 50 goal season today is not quite as impressive as it was 10 years ago, although there are many people who still treat it as the same thing.

 

[FerrisRox]

Most 50 Goal Seasons:

Mike Bossy - 9
Wayne Gretzky - 9
Alex Ovechkin - 9
Guy Lafleur - 6
Marcel Dionne - 6
Mario Lemieux - 6
Bobby Hull - 5
Brett Hull - 5
Pavel Bure - 5
Phil Esposito - 5
Steve Yzerman - 5
Jari Kurri - 4
Michel Goulet - 4
Tim Kerr - 4
Cam Neely - 3
Jaromir Jagr - 3
John LeClair - 3
Luc Robitaille - 3
Rick Vaive - 3
Teemu Selanne - 3
Leon Draisaitl - 3

21 players. 15 are already in the HOF. Another three are not eligible yet, but are locks (Jagr, Ovechkin, Draisaitl).

That leaves three players, Kerr, LeClair, and Vaive. I'd like to hear the argument against these player who are otherwise in extremely rarefied company.

One name stands out like a sore-thumb: Rick Vaive.

Rick Vaive is, by far, the worst player on this list. Vaive was able to post big goal scoring totals in large part because he didn't give a rat's ass about playing any semblance of defense at all. He took advantage of how lousy those Leaf teams were and focused solely on his own personal goal totals, and he made this jaw-droppingly selfish choice while wearing the C for his team!

Rick Vaive barely deserves to be in the Hall of Fame when he buys a ticket at admissions. He was nowhere near the level of the players on this list and he was nowhere near the top of the list of wingers from the 80's. Unless Rick Vaive was in the process of scoring a goal, not only was he useless on the ice, he was often hurting his team rather than helping it.

 

[Voight]

Random fact: I believe Adam Oates is the only player to center three different 50 goal scorers.

 

[MadArcand]

Random fact: I believe Adam Oates is the only player to center three different 50 goal scorers.

Craig Janney? Neely, Hull, Tkachuk.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Wayne-o wasn't responsible for Messier's 50 goal year? (plus Kurri and Anderson). @The Panther probably knows off the top of his head...

 

[lextune]

Wayne-o wasn't responsible for Messier's 50 goal year? (plus Kurri and Anderson). @The Panther probably knows off the top of his head...

Gretzky didn't center Messier, but he definitely centered Kurri, Anderson, and Robitaille to 50 goal seasons.

IIRC Robitaille is second only to Kurri in goals assisted by Gretzky.

 

[FerrisRox]

LeClair was quite a lot better than Kerr and Vaive, both of whom have zero chance of making the Hall. I think LeClair will likely be inducted. In addition to his years in Philly, he was a significant star for Team USA in best-on-best tournaments.

I don't agree at all that John LeClair was "quite a lot better than Kerr."

 

[Golden_Jet]

I haven't seen a single poster here treating it as if it is equivalent in both eras....?

That being said, the difference in the accomplishment between 1980-1995 and 2006-2021 is not as big as the frequency of occurrence (114 to 14 or whatever) makes it sound. I mean, a 50-goal scorer in 1987 was considered a super-elite goal scorer, just as a 50-goal scorer was considered super-elite in 2019.

Playing in the period 1997-98 through 2003-04, and playing in the period around 2009-10 through 2017-18 meant it was very, very difficult for even top scorers to accumulate 50+ in a single season, sure.

But at the same time, it's not like a 60-goal season suddenly became the threshold of elite in the mid-1980s, either. In the entire decade of the 1980s, there were only nine 60-goal player-seasons that weren't by Gretzky himself or enabled by Gretzky (Kurri x 2, Nicholls x 1). There were only seven in total if we further take out Mario.

I dunno, to me 50 goals is always the marker of super-elite as a goal-scorer, from 1971 or whatever to today. This of course doesn't mean that, in certain periods, a 42-goal scorer isn't super-elite also...

Super elite scoring would of been Bobby Hull in the 60’s.