This Pittsburgh Penguins Act is Getting Old

[GirardSpinorama]

If you have to bring up a rental deal where Dubas traded a 5th for Ben Hutton as him "mortgaging the future", you're flat out not arguing in good faith.

In Dubas' 5 drafts with the Leafs, the Leafs had 2 1sts, 5 2nds, 5 3rd and 5 4ths. That is an entirely reasonable amount of high end picks for a contending team making win-now moves to have. In the same window for the Penguins, the Penguins had 2 1sts, 4 2nds (2 of which were later traded as prospects), 2 3rds (both of which have been traded as prospects)) and 2 4ths (one of which has been traded as a prospect). I don't know how many of those guys are left with the Leafs, but I'm pretty damn confident it's more than what the Penguins have left.

JR made these trades in about a 3 year stretch:

-1st and Hallander (2018 2nd) for Kapanen (remember when Dubas completely embarrassed JR in this deal?)
-1st and Addison (2018 2nd) for Zucker
-1st and Gustavsson (2016 2nd) for Brassard
-2nd for McCann and Bjugstad (honestly the only deal here that wasn't awful for the Penguins)

These deals are why the Penguins have no young players today. I can't see any way that Dubas hurt the Leafs even close to a level that JR's last few years hurt the Penguins, especially with how desperately they need young players today.

lol, 4th round picks are high end now?

They traded 3 firsts to go no where.

 

[Empoleon8771]

lol, 4th round picks are high end now?

They traded 3 firsts to go no where.

That's what you took away from my post?

My point was that Dubas held onto enough picks that the Leafs could at least somewhat manage to keep a consistently stocked prospect pool. Even if you want to take out the 4ths, fine, they still averaged a 2nd and 3rd every year. That's completely reasonable level of spending for a team trying to win-now, even if it's not paying off.

What JR did for the Penguins in the last few years was not a reasonable level of spending, and considering how old the Penguins core was, they had to be even more strict with how they were spending picks. But that didn't happen, and it's why the Penguins now have literally 0 skaters on their team younger than 25 today.

 

[hamzarocks]

If you have to bring up a rental deal where Dubas traded a 5th for Ben Hutton as him "mortgaging the future", you're flat out not arguing in good faith.

In Dubas' 5 drafts with the Leafs, the Leafs had 2 1sts, 5 2nds, 5 3rd and 5 4ths. That is an entirely reasonable amount of high end picks for a contending team making win-now moves to have. In the same window for the Penguins, the Penguins had 2 1sts, 4 2nds (2 of which were later traded as prospects), 2 3rds (both of which have been traded as prospects)) and 2 4ths (one of which has been traded as a prospect). I don't know how many of those guys are left with the Leafs, but I'm pretty damn confident it's more than what the Penguins have left.

JR made these trades in about a 3 year stretch:

-1st and Hallander (2018 2nd) for Kapanen (remember when Dubas completely embarrassed JR in this deal?)
-1st and Addison (2018 2nd) for Zucker
-1st and Gustavsson (2016 2nd) for Brassard
-2nd for McCann and Bjugstad (honestly the only deal here that wasn't awful for the Penguins)

These deals are why the Penguins have no young players today. I can't see any way that Dubas hurt the Leafs even close to a level that JR's last few years hurt the Penguins, especially with how desperately they need young players today.

I never said Dubas didnt make some decent moves, but i presented you all the picks he dealt and you choose to ignore that

Trading a 5th for a d-man who wasnt going to play for you in the playoffs when you had dermott/sandin/lilijgren as 5-7 younish D trying to break in is a clear short sighted move and ignoring that shows you are not familiar with the leafs situation when dubas was running things (as you should since you aren't a leaf fan and only a pen fan trying to defend dubas)

His tenure was disastourous for us sadly.
He dealt in the above listing:

1) 6 1st round picks (2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023)

2) 5 2nd round picks (2022, 2023, 2024, 2025, 2026)

That is 11 top 60 picks dealt in his tenure. Some were good moves, others not so much, being for rentals that didnt work and the team didnt improve under them.

He did bring in a 2020 1st (Amirov - RIP) and 2023 (Cowan) but those deals cost players which he once believed were core pieces (Kapanen & Sandin).

He dumped Kapanen and Johnsson 12 months after Marleay dump which made that trade ridicoulous and non-sensical for us, and Sandin vs Cowan remains to be seen, with Sandin being a player we invested time and development into that we gave up on and got an asset which is likely to make an impact in 2026 or 2027 for the contending leafs.

His picks by name;

1st rounders

2018 - Sandin (Dealt for 2023 1st which became Cowan)
2020 - Amirov (RIP)

2nd rounders

2018 - Durzi (dealt for Muzzin package) 2019 - Robertson (struggling in a 3rd line role for us sadly)
2020 - Hirvonen (looking like an AHLer) , 2021 - Knies (his best pick and a legit top 6 PWF very soon)
2022 - Minten (disapointing CHL seasons in his D+2, looking like an AHLer or 13th forward guy)

3rd rounders

2018 - SDA (in the KHL, a bust and wont be an NHLer for the leafs
2018 - Riely Stotts (gave up on professional hockey dreams and went to CAN university playing for university of ottawa or calgary I believe)

2019

Mikko Kokkonen - looking like a bust. In the AHL and is a middle pairing player there. Really low shot at the NHL

2020

Niemela - In our AHL team, is an alright prospect but hasnt hit off like expected and isnt a surefire NHL D-man.

2021 - No 3rds

2022

Nick Moldenhauer - around 0.5 ppg in his D+3 year and 2nd year in NCAA. Not a guy likely to get an NHL contract

Of the picks there, only Knies is a quality NHLer with us, Robertson best case looks like a top 9 player and Niemela + Minten are long-shot NHL players

His drafting was weak here in toronto. It is much improved in Pittsburgh I will give you.

Liked a fair share of the pens picks compared to what we were drafting here in toronto with dubas, partially due to lack of picks via dubas deals

 

[CatOTails]

Would be fun to know what was the "oldest" team to win a Stanley Cup or to at least to play in SC final. I doubt it's possible to do when average player's age exceeds 30 years.

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

Would be fun to know what was the "oldest" team to win a Stanley Cup or to at least to play in SC final. I doubt it's possible to do when average player's age exceeds 30 years.
View attachment 922747

Looks scary for Edmonton.

 

[karltonian]

Would be fun to know what was the "oldest" team to win a Stanley Cup or to at least to play in SC final. I doubt it's possible to do when average player's age exceeds 30 years.
View attachment 922747

I took a look at recent finalists since penguins-sharks in 2016, and most average 28-29+. None over 30 but some were above 29.5. All were above league average age. Interesting!

 

[JianYang]

I took a look at recent finalists since penguins-sharks in 2016, and most average 28-29+. None over 30 but some were above 29.5. All were above league average age. Interesting!

Was it one of the leafs teams in the 60s?

It seemed to ring a bell as I feel like I've heard that somewhere.

 

[LevelingSolo]

Is money really why Sullivan is still the coach? If he was fired he would likely have a job by 25-26 at the latest

 

[WarriorofTime]

Would be fun to know what was the "oldest" team to win a Stanley Cup or to at least to play in SC final. I doubt it's possible to do when average player's age exceeds 30 years.

Average age is a bit of a mirage, as for instance, a 38 year old 12th forward or a 22 year old 12th forward can have a decent effect on a team's average age but for practical purposes tells you nothing.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Is money really why Sullivan is still the coach? If he was fired he would likely have a job by 25-26 at the latest

No it's because the entire organization is delusional about him and considers him the Sidney Crosby of coaches.

I don't even know if Dubas alone has the authority to fire him, but I know he's just as happy with Sullivan as FSG is.

 

[BallardEra]

Sullivan pulling out all the stops:

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/pittsburgh-penguins/latest-news/crosby-malkin-appear-slated-to-skate-together-as-penguins-load-top-line

 

[TooManyHumans]

No it's because the entire organization is delusional about him and considers him the Sidney Crosby of coaches.

I don't even know if Dubas alone has the authority to fire him, but I know he's just as happy with Sullivan as FSG is.

If Dubas still wants to keep Sullivan then I'm onboard the Dubas hate train.

 

[WarriorofTime]

That's what you took away from my post?

My point was that Dubas held onto enough picks that the Leafs could at least somewhat manage to keep a consistently stocked prospect pool. Even if you want to take out the 4ths, fine, they still averaged a 2nd and 3rd every year. That's completely reasonable level of spending for a team trying to win-now, even if it's not paying off.

What JR did for the Penguins in the last few years was not a reasonable level of spending, and considering how old the Penguins core was, they had to be even more strict with how they were spending picks. But that didn't happen, and it's why the Penguins now have literally 0 skaters on their team younger than 25 today.

Since he became GM in the 2018 off-season

2019 1st round pick: The Toronto Maple Leafs' first-round pick went to the Los Angeles Kings as the result of a trade on January 28, 2019, that sent Jake Muzzin to Toronto in exchange for Carl Grundstrom, Sean Durzi and this pick.

2019 Draft: Net result is no 1st round pick

2020 1st round pick:

1. The Toronto Maple Leafs' first-round pick went to the Carolina Hurricanes as the result of a trade on June 22, 2019, that sent a sixth-round pick in 2020 to Toronto in exchange for Patrick Marleau, a seventh-round pick in 2020 and this pick (being conditional at the time of the trade).[17] The condition – Carolina will receive a first-round pick in 2020 if Toronto's first-round pick in 2020 is outside of the top ten selections[17] – was converted on August 10, 2020, when Toronto lost the second phase of the draft lottery.

but, also

1. The Pittsburgh Penguins' first-round pick went to the Toronto Maple Leafs as the result of a trade on August 25, 2020, that sent Kasperi Kapanen, Pontus Aberg and Jesper Lindgren to Pittsburgh in exchange for Evan Rodrigues, Filip Hallander, David Warsofsky and this pick.[18]

2020 Draft: Net result is go from 13th pick to 15th pick.


2021 1st Round Pick: The Toronto Maple Leafs' first-round pick went to the Columbus Blue Jackets as the result of a trade on April 11, 2021, that sent Stefan Noesen to Toronto in exchange for a fourth-round pick in 2022 and this pick.[17]

2021 Draft: Net result is no 1st round pick.


2022 1st Round Pick: The Toronto Maple Leafs' first-round pick went to the Chicago Blackhawks as the result of a trade on July 7, 2022, that sent a second-round pick in 2022 (38th overall) to Toronto in exchange for Petr Mrazek and this pick.[17]

2022 Draft: Net result is to go from 25th pick (1st round) to 38th pick (2nd round)

2023 First Round Pick:

1. The Toronto Maple Leafs' first-round pick went to the St. Louis Blues as the result of a trade on February 17, 2023, that sent Ryan O'Reilly, Noel Acciari and Josh Pillar to Toronto in exchange for Adam Gaudette, Mikhail Abramov, Ottawa's third-round pick in 2023, a second-round pick in 2024 and this pick.[18].... but
2. The Boston Bruins' first-round pick went to the Toronto Maple Leafs as the result of a trade on February 28, 2023, that sent Rasmus Sandin to Washington in exchange for Erik Gustafsson and this pick.[21]

2023 Draft: Net result is to go from 25th pick to 28th pick

Dubas leaves Toronto, but not before he sent the 2024 2nd round and 2024 3rd round picks out the door, the 2025 1st round and 2025 2nd round picks out the door and the 2026 2nd round pick out the door.

Dubas is a one trick pony. He trades Draft Picks. That's his go to move.

 

[squashmaple]

2021 1st Round Pick: The Toronto Maple Leafs' first-round pick went to the Columbus Blue Jackets as the result of a trade on April 11, 2021, that sent Stefan Noesen to Toronto in exchange for a fourth-round pick in 2022 and this pick.[17]

2021 Draft: Net result is no 1st round pick.

It was Nick Foligno. Noesen has never been a Blue Jacket. Wikipedia is wrong.

Also, that fourth rounder was later re-acquired by Toronto and used to pick Dennis Hildeby, who Columbus slaughtered last week.

 

[WarriorofTime]

It was Nick Foligno. Noesen has never been a Blue Jacket. Wikipedia is wrong.

Foligno and Noesen (obviously Foligno being the noteworthy piece). Thanks for the correction. I was indeed just copying from wiki

 

[Duffy13]

Back on track, this is about how awful the Penguins are... Not about some loser draft picks the Leafs messed up.

 

[squashmaple]

Foligno and Noesen (obviously Foligno being the noteworthy piece). Thanks for the correction. I was indeed just copying from wiki

Noesen was just a throw in for San Jose to get a better pick for their part in the double retention. The first went to Columbus for Foligno. Columbus got nothing from San Jose. And as it turns out, Toronto might’ve won the trade after all. Hildeby is a very good AHL goalie while Corson Ceulemans is probably a bust. Maybe Dubas can accidentally do that for Pittsburgh, too?

 

[BallardEra]

Down 4-2 after being up 2-0.

Let’s see if Sullivan can get them going for the third period.

 

[trellaine201]

Penguins are old and slow.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Penguins are old and slow.

They're old and slow and Sullivan is trying to make them play a fast, up-tempo forechecking system.

The sad thing is that everything coming out from the Pittsburgh media is that Sullivan is untouchable and won't be fired, because everyone in the organization (owners, Dubas and the core) love him. So it will just continue to be what it has been as the Penguins plummet their way to a top-5 pick. Which is good for their rebuild but sucks from an entertainment POV.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Mike Sullivan's coaching philosophy post-2017

 

[BallardEra]

They are now dead last in the Eastern Conference standings.

 

[Stephen]

They are now dead last in the Eastern Conference standings.

With possession of their own first rounder, they might be headed towards the old tried and true Pittsburgh Penguins method of drafting first overall, and soon. 19 years between Lemieux and Crosby, 20 years between Crosby and Hagens. Clockwork.

 

[orby]

The Pens, though they are in denial about it, are in the early stages of a rebuild that is not going to be finished until long after Crosby retires. It was worth it for the cups, but these will be lean years.

 

[BillyOcean]

I'll take 20 years of futility just to spite my fellow fans who cheer and simp for a garbage goaltender on an opposing team.