Think JD & Jarmo are in trouble? Porty doesn't sound that way

[EspenK]

In between completely ignoring the heart issue he had over the summer and comparing him to a guy who asked out, I'm not sure any part of this post is grounded in reality.

And as far as responding to what I posted taken in context with the post I responded to originally I am not sure your post is grounded in reality either.

 

[SuperGenius]

If they questioned him along a long, then why didn't they trade him at his peak (during last season)?

nder your n arrative the CBJ questioned him all along, they waited until he was a legit 1st line C, ticked him off more, let him regress to the point of being out of shape and moved to the 4th line then traded him. If that is indeed the case then I think we can all agree that they handled it terribly.

Like anyone, they saw the potential in Joey and hoped he would mature and get there. Joey had a nice year last year and more years like it might even have made the problems less significant. Then this season happened. He didn't look like a #1C to me and the slow changes, lazy skating and hanging his head did nothing but confirm that this guy is as far from a Thornton or Toews as you can get and still have #1C genes. I think this was the final straw and I know that they realized there was no way they were going to pay this guy 8 or 9 million long term.

I really like Johansen and I'm not really happy that they couldn't develop him, but sometimes you can't change someone that much. If his brain can someday catch up to his ability, he'll be fine. Seth Jones seems like a nice compromise, and one of the better hockey trades I've seen, so their failure is a little easier to swallow.

 

[EspenK]

Like anyone, they saw the potential in Joey and hoped he would mature and get there. Joey had a nice year last year and more years like it might even have made the problems less significant. Then this season happened. He didn't look like a #1C to me and the slow changes, lazy skating and hanging his head did nothing but confirm that this guy is as far from a Thornton or Toews as you can get and still have #1C genes. I think this was the final straw and I know that they realized there was no way they were going to pay this guy 8 or 9 million long term.

I really like Johansen and I'm not really happy that they couldn't develop him, but sometimes you can't change someone that much. If his brain can someday catch up to his ability, he'll be fine. Seth Jones seems like a nice compromise, and one of the better hockey trades I've seen, so their failure is a little easier to swallow.

I agree 100%. Sums the situation up very nicely.

 

[Samkow]

And as far as responding to what I posted taken in context with the post I responded to originally I am not sure your post is grounded in reality either.

Fair enough. My mistake, didn't quite understand JD's post.

After 15 years of the fans blaming the "country club atmosphere" and other factors related to intangibles when that's pretty clearly far from the biggest problem here, I get pretty ornery when they're brought up.

 

[EspenK]

Fair enough. My mistake, didn't quite understand JD's post.

After 15 years of the fans blaming the "country club atmosphere" and other factors related to intangibles when that's pretty clearly far from the biggest problem here, I get pretty ornery when they're brought up.

NP. I just figured it was early and coffee hadn't kicked in yet.

 

[Jive Pawnbroker]

Why does this song keep popping in my head when I read certain posters' posts?

 

[Mayor Bee]

Why does this song keep popping in my head when I read certain posters' posts?

I was thinking more about this one.

 

[major major]

16th in the league in scoring. All that money tied up in an average group.

What exactly are you arguing here? That the scoring forwards are bad?

The Jackets are squarely in the middle pack in goals for, although it has been much better in the Jones era. To be in the middle, despite having terrible D scoring, and bad depth scoring, indicates by itself that the scoring lines have been above average.

If you don't trust that reasoning, go around and count the goals by the top six and compare it to the rest of the league. It seems like it will be a nasty shock to you given how self-assured you've been in trashing the team's scorers.

You can still argue that there aren't any elite forwards, sure, but that's a different question from "how many goals do the scoring lines score?".

 

[blahblah]

What exactly are you arguing here? That the scoring forwards are bad?

Well to be fair our cap hit on forwards is 42 million, which is 4th in the league but you have to go to 69th in the league in scoring to find Hartnell. Saad is tied for 18th in the league in goal scoring with 24 (Jenner is tied for 25th with 23). Saad is tied for 31th in Cap hit for forwards.

The forwards aren't bad, we're just issuing a lot of average contracts to average players.

Clarkson messes around with things because if you take out his contract, we pay our forwards middle of the pack in the league.

I think this should illustrate how stupid it was to take on Clarkson's contract.

Oh, we're also 4th in the league in goalie cap hit. That's working out well for us too. We're 26th in the league in cap hit on defense.

We really aren't spending our money very wisely; nor do we have many bargains. Saad it doing pretty well, but he's really not a bargain at 6 million - although he's only paid 4 this season. Atkinson and Hartnell are bargains as are a couple of players on ELC, but most of our players paid 4 million or over can claim, at best, that they are earning their money. A few can't even claim that.

 

[major major]

Well to be fair our cap hit on forwards is 42 million, which is 4th in the league but you have to go to 69th in the league in scoring to find Hartnell. Saad is tied for 18th in the league in goal scoring with 24 (Jenner is tied for 25th with 23). Saad is tied for 31th in Cap hit for forwards.

The forwards aren't bad, we're just issuing a lot of average contracts to average players.

Clarkson messes around with things because if you take out his contract, we pay our forwards middle of the pack in the league.

I think this should illustrate how stupid it was to take on Clarkson's contract.

Oh, we're also 4th in the league in goalie cap hit. That's working out well for us too. We're 26th in the league in cap hit on defense.

We really aren't spending our money very wisely; nor do we have many bargains. Saad it doing pretty well, but he's really not a bargain at 6 million - although he's only paid 4 this season. Atkinson and Hartnell are bargains as are a couple of players on ELC, but most of our players paid 4 million or over can claim, at best, that they are earning their money. A few can't even claim that.

I'm going to keep pressing on this- 4 top 40 goal scorers is really something. I'm glad you agree that those guys aren't bad, but they're not "average" either. We're in a truly enviable position with the quality of the scoring wingers on this hockey team.

The fourth line graveyard is the big issue at forward. Jarmo really ought to have known better that Campbell and Boll's contacts were bad.

 

[blahblah]

I'm going to keep pressing on this- 4 top 40 goal scorers is really something. I'm glad you agree that those guys aren't bad, but they're not "average" either. We're in a truly enviable position with the quality of the scoring wingers on this hockey team.

For top six forwards they are. Your top one is tied for 18th (one less goal drops you to 25th) and your top scoring forward is 69th in the league. The average top six goal scorers are pretty bunched up in the 20-25 range. Sure we have some goal scorers, but fairly weak on the play making side. When you consider they as a whole, they are a pretty average group. Foligno is probably the most well rounded forward we have.

We really don't have much in the way of snipers, they are pretty much a group of garbage goal scorers.

 

[major major]

For top six forwards they are. Your top one is tied for 18th (one less goal drops you to 25th) and your top scoring forward is 69th in the league. The average top six goal scorers are pretty bunched up in the 20-25 range. Sure we have some goal scorers, but fairly weak on the play making side. When you consider they as a whole, they are a pretty average group. Foligno is probably the most well rounded forward we have.

We really don't have much in the way of snipers, they are pretty much a group of garbage goal scorers.

There's 180 top six F's in the league, so the average has to be kind of close to 90th out of that group, and we have 4 of the top 47 goal scorers. There's only 53 players total with 20 or more goals. That's definitely not average top six.

As for playmaking, I totally agree, that's a bigger issue. Not a weakness, but there's room for improvement. I'm not sure what happened with all those missing assists, but it could be a symptom of low possession time relative to goals scored.

Yes, they're garbage goal scorers, I'm not sure whether that's supposed to be a bad thing.

 

[blahblah]

There's 180 top six F's in the league, so the average has to be kind of close to 90th out of that group, and we have 4 of the top 47 goal scorers. There's only 53 players total with 20 or more goals. That's definitely not average top six.

I said we have goal scorers, but they aren't point producers - translation - average. I gave my reasoning and it is sound. This is an average group of forwards with really nothing on the top end.

I'm done with this. Cheers.

 

[JacketsDavid]

I'm going to keep pressing on this- 4 top 40 goal scorers is really something. I'm glad you agree that those guys aren't bad, but they're not "average" either. We're in a truly enviable position with the quality of the scoring wingers on this hockey team.

The fourth line graveyard is the big issue at forward. Jarmo really ought to have known better that Campbell and Boll's contacts were bad.

Doesn't 4 top 40 goal scorers and then looking at team scoring tell the story?

The blue line doesn't help much offensively and as you noted the 4th line is probably the worst in the league most nights.

So I agree lot of quality, no questions but you need that with this roster because of the 4th line and general lack of scoring from the blue line. As noted before it's also reflected in the payroll spent on the forwards.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

As for playmaking, I totally agree, that's a bigger issue. Not a weakness, but there's room for improvement. I'm not sure what happened with all those missing assists, but it could be a symptom of low possession time relative to goals scored.

I'm not doing math or research, but in just looking at player stats, there is not much in the way of assists. All the goal scorers have more goals than assists, and no one has a bunch of assists (Thornton-style, for example). Now, unless you're having a bunch of unassisted goals, someone has to have them, but to me it's glaring that there don't seem to be playmakers.

 

[EspenK]

I'm not doing math or research, but in just looking at player stats, there is not much in the way of assists. All the goal scorers have more goals than assists, and no one has a bunch of assists (Thornton-style, for example). Now, unless you're having a bunch of unassisted goals, someone has to have them, but to me it's glaring that there don't seem to be playmakers.

I think this is right on. If anyone watches the Jackets regularly you can't (shouldn't) help but notice that most of our goals are of the greasy kind and even when assists are given its the first whacker who gets it. The jackets are devoid of playmakers.

 

[major major]

Ultimately what we're interested in is goals. And a greasy goal is worth the same as a beautiful goal.
I do think we could have even more goals if we had more playmaking.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Ultimately what we're interested in is goals. And a greasy goal is worth the same as a beautiful goal.
I do think we could have even more goals if we had more playmaking.

Bolded for agreement emphasis. Never meant to suggest otherwise. Again, doing a very cursory look at CBJ player stats shows no one getting a slew of assists.

 

[blahblah]

Ultimately what we're interested in is goals. And a greasy goal is worth the same as a beautiful goal.

We used to score a lot of goals in transition, not so much anymore. You do want more than one look to give teams.

 

[SuperGenius]

Why does this song keep popping in my head when I read certain posters' posts?

I was thinking more about this one.

I usually think of this one:

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I usually think of this one:

This is the world we live in.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

Bearded Jarmo Kekäläinen has been interviewed around the globe.

Helsingin Sanomat:

"Last season the experts said that we should be one of the top teams in this league but when all went towards the ass, the same experts said we would be last in the league. Thankfully sports do not work that way."

NHL.com:

"In my own career I have been both at high and low, seen both the hell and the climax. I begin my GM career at HIFK when we didn't make the play-offs. Many were ready to burn me on a bonfire. Next year we won the SM-liiga championship."

 

[SuperGenius]

Is that a current picture of Jarmo? The goatee really moves him up in the NHL Bond villains power rankings.