Think JD & Jarmo are in trouble? Porty doesn't sound that way

[Cowumbus]

63 points the previous year in addition to his 70 points last season. I'm very comfortable categorizing this season as an outlier for him.

The CBJ are just not a very good team top to bottom. I really don't think it's much more complex than that. No high end scoring, no top notch defensemen, nothing outstanding in goal. A formula for mediocrity.

Agreed. The only people really on our team who COULD be elite are Murray Jones and Saad. Don't really see much in Werenski but hopefully he makes me regret saying that. We are still a .500 team when we are playing "good hockey"

We need some high end skill hopefully we can draft top 3

 

[Viqsi]

Agreed. The only people really on our team who COULD be elite are Murray Jones and Saad. Don't really see much in Werenski but hopefully he makes me regret saying that. We are still a .500 team when we are playing "good hockey"

We need some high end skill hopefully we can draft top 3

The list of guys we have who are merely Very Good, tho, is pretty extensive. You don't necessarily need elite everywhere to win.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Agreed. The only people really on our team who COULD be elite are Murray Jones and Saad. Don't really see much in Werenski but hopefully he makes me regret saying that. We are still a .500 team when we are playing "good hockey"

We need some high end skill hopefully we can draft top 3

I don't see Murray as having elite potential. Not even close. Might be an OK first pairing guy, but that's the high end for him. Doubt elite stauts for Jones either, but won't dismiss the possibility.

Currently, the leading CBJ scoring forward ranks 57th in the league. That's Scott Hartnell. Given the amount of $$$ locked up in long term forward contracts, this is not encouraging at all. Hartnell is due to decline.

Dubinsky will be 30 years old going into next year and his style of play generally comes with peak scoring in a player's 20s. He's a 50 points scorer at best-terrible for a #1C.

Foligno can be counted on for roughly 50 points. Saad about the same. Jenner is probably playing as well as he'll every play. Atkinson the same. Not a single forward even capable of 65 points among these. A bunch of decent 2nd liners, there's not one forward on this entire roster a top NHL team would covet as a top line player. Not one.

Wennberg has the look of a 40-50 points player at best. The rest of the forwards are junk/fillers.


The current "run" is nothing more than a function of normal fluctuation in a season. The CBJ have seen a lot of back up goalies and their overall schedule since the trade hasn't been very tough. they rank 23rd in points, tie for 16th in goals scored and are 26th in goals against. These are not indications of a good team. They are not a good team by any measure, except perhaps by overrating the potential of its players/prospects by a biased fan base.

There's no cap room to improve the offense. While Jarmo and JD might have bought a stay of execution by changing coaches and the big trade, that's all that they've done. This team isn't even a borderline playoff team most likely going into next year. There doesn't appear to be a prospect that is going really alter the equation for next season. Unless the Jackets win the lottery-a chance of, what, 5% or so.

Does anyone really see a front office led by JD and JK starting the 2018-19 season? Their time is limited. It's a question of when they get bounced, not if. McConnell is probably going to be floored by the drop in season tickets next season. The end could be as soon as early next year if the team gets off to its traditional lousy start.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Agreed. The only people really on our team who COULD be elite are Murray Jones and Saad. Don't really see much in Werenski but hopefully he makes me regret saying that. We are still a .500 team when we are playing "good hockey"

We need some high end skill hopefully we can draft top 3

New Jersey won their first Cup with a lot of players who were merely average at their respective positions, with a formerly elite defenseman in Scott Stevens and a higher-end goalie named Brodeur.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

New Jersey won their first Cup with a lot of players who were merely average at their respective positions, with a formerly elite defenseman in Scott Stevens and a higher-end goalie named Brodeur.

An odd season. Lockout and all. They were 22-26 (8 loser points). Barely made the playoffs.

In any case, I certainly wouldn't seek to emulate that model if I were a GM.

 

[SuperGenius]

I'm not saying both guys need fired but needs to be accountability

How do you know there isn't?

the rest of your reasoning involves a lot of hindsight and armchair GM'ing. You're assuming that the way you think things should have been done would have been successful simply because their course wasn't. The D was a weak spot, for sure, but they did expect more out of the group and the addition of a healthy Murray was not a small detail. From what I know, I believe they knew they could pull the trigger on a top D man for some time, but knew it would cost quite a bit. They gambled that a healthy Murray + healthy D would be serviceable if not better. In a sense, they wanted to have their cake and eat it too - and it backfired. It sucks, but I can't really blame them for waiting to see what they had before giving up a good piece like Johansen.

FWIW, this myth that the contract problems had something to do with Johansen being traded needs to go away. The only relation between the two would be the underlying reasons for both: Johansen just isn't the kind of guy that can lead a franchise like a Toews. He's a wonderful player, but he's not the 10M guy he thinks he is and I'm glad they didn't blindly throw that kind of money at him.

 

[Mayor Bee]

An odd season. Lockout and all. They were 22-26 (8 loser points). Barely made the playoffs.

In any case, I certainly wouldn't seek to emulate that model if I were a GM.

It was essentially exactly the same team that had gone to Game 7 OT of the ECF the year before, they quite clearly sandbagged the regular season, and those are 8 ties and not 8 OT losses (which would have just gone in the L column). They went 16-4 during the playoffs, including a pummeling of a heavily favored Red Wings squad in the Final.

Whether it's a model to emulate or not isn't the point; that it was successful and paved the way for future contending and two additional Cups over the next decade is indisputable.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

FWIW, this myth that the contract problems had something to do with Johansen being traded needs to go away. The only relation between the two would be the underlying reasons for both: Johansen just isn't the kind of guy that can lead a franchise like a Toews. He's a wonderful player, but he's not the 10M guy he thinks he is and I'm glad they didn't blindly throw that kind of money at him.

The bad blood between the two sides was palpable during and after the negotiations. It continued on and reached a head this season after Tortorella declared Johansen "out of shape" after watching him play one period. This assertion was obviously done on the behest of the front office. The relationship between the player and FO was fractured beyond repair as a direct result of the contentious negotiations.

Nothing mythological about it at all. Sorry it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[SuperGenius]

given what's going on in Edmonton I don't think simply amassing high draft picks isn't a guarantee of success either.

It has to be the right guys. Skill can be found throughout the draft. TBH, I think the idea that this team as assembled sucks and can't win is sort of funny considering what we've seen in the past. Certainly this year's result is good evidence, but how much is mental? how much can Torts fix? How much difference can a year make?

In other words, they ain't blowing it up or drafting a whole new team- we're going to watch this team grow and develop.

 

[Cowumbus]

I don't have faith in making the playoffs with this team as is currently.
Nor do I in the future with the stupid contracts (including Duby and Foligno)

Really hoping for a miracle.

@supergenius we are going to watch the young guys develop while the old guys Tyutin/Clarkson/Duby/Foligno age and take up half the cap

 

[SuperGenius]

The bad blood between the two sides was palpable during and after the negotiations. It continued on and reached a head this season after Tortorella declared Johansen "out of shape" after watching him play one period. This assertion was obviously done on the behest of the front office. The relationship between the player and FO was fractured beyond repair as a direct result of the contentious negotiations.

Nothing mythological about it at all. Sorry it doesn't fit your narrative.

The key word you're missing is "before"

This front office had concerns about him as a player - as a pro - for some time going back to his rookie season. This didn't start as a result of the negotiation - it is what caused the negotiation. It's a fact, not a narrative.

 

[SuperGenius]

I don't have faith in making the playoffs with this team as is currently.
Nor do I in the future with the stupid contracts (including Duby and Foligno)

Really hoping for a miracle.

@supergenious we are going to watch the young guys develop while the old guys Tyutin/Clarkson/Duby/Foligno age and take up half the cap

All good, successful teams have a nice mix of youth and veterans. Young players cannot develop in a vacuum. This is the NHL, not NHL 2016 or Yahoo Fantasy NHL. I'm not saying this team can make the playoffs as is, but I don't see much being done other than some tweaks. I also don't really think they're nearly as far away as it seems. Most of their problems are collectively between the ears.

I have no idea why you would lump in Dubinsky and Foligno with Tyutin and Clarkson.

 

[Cowumbus]

All good, successful teams have a nice mix of youth and veterans. Young players cannot develop in a vacuum. This is the NHL, not NHL 2016 or Yahoo Fantasy NHL. I'm not saying this team can make the playoffs as is, but I don't see much being done other than some tweaks. I also don't really think they're nearly as far away as it seems. Most of their problems are collectively between the ears.

I have no idea why you would lump in Dubinsky and Foligno with Tyutin and Clarkson (note correct and inoffensive spelling).

I lump them because in 2 years they are gonna become RJ umberger type deadweight to this team

 

[Cowumbus]

Nick Foligno is 28 years old, statistically his best years are behind him and his best year.
He had an anomaly a year ago when he had 70 points. Before that he was a 40 point player at best. Please tell me how he is worth a contract. You're telling me someone who is a career 40 point player is worth 5.5 million dollars for his play age 29-33!?

Dubinsky is basically the same but a year older.

It's not that I don't like the players because I do. I just don't believe they are worth the contracts at their age. Realistically they should be about 4 mill. Slightly above Atkinson and I don't even know about that bc Atkinson is younger.

 

[We Want Ten]

The bad blood between the two sides was palpable during and after the negotiations. It continued on and reached a head this season after Tortorella declared Johansen "out of shape" after watching him play one period. This assertion was obviously done on the behest of the front office. The relationship between the player and FO was fractured beyond repair as a direct result of the contentious negotiations.

Nothing mythological about it at all. Sorry it doesn't fit your narrative.

This reads like a 14 year old girls fanfic on Twilight or something.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Nick Foligno is 28 years old, statistically his best years are behind him and his best year.
He had an anomaly a year ago when he had 70 points. Before that he was a 40 point player at best. Please tell me how he is worth a contract. You're telling me someone who is a career 40 point player is worth 5.5 million dollars for his play age 29-33!?

Dubinsky is basically the same but a year older.

It's not that I don't like the players because I do. I just don't believe they are worth the contracts at their age. Realistically they should be about 4 mill. Slightly above Atkinson and I don't even know about that bc Atkinson is younger.

I don't think you have the correct impression regarding player age versus production. And by that I mean the relationship is anything but fixed.

 

[major major]

I don't see Murray as having elite potential. Not even close. Might be an OK first pairing guy, but that's the high end for him. Doubt elite stauts for Jones either, but won't dismiss the possibility.

Currently, the leading CBJ scoring forward ranks 57th in the league. That's Scott Hartnell. Given the amount of $$$ locked up in long term forward contracts, this is not encouraging at all. Hartnell is due to decline.

Dubinsky will be 30 years old going into next year and his style of play generally comes with peak scoring in a player's 20s. He's a 50 points scorer at best-terrible for a #1C.

Foligno can be counted on for roughly 50 points. Saad about the same. Jenner is probably playing as well as he'll every play. Atkinson the same. Not a single forward even capable of 65 points among these. A bunch of decent 2nd liners, there's not one forward on this entire roster a top NHL team would covet as a top line player. Not one.

Wennberg has the look of a 40-50 points player at best. The rest of the forwards are junk/fillers.


The current "run" is nothing more than a function of normal fluctuation in a season. The CBJ have seen a lot of back up goalies and their overall schedule since the trade hasn't been very tough. they rank 23rd in points, tie for 16th in goals scored and are 26th in goals against. These are not indications of a good team. They are not a good team by any measure, except perhaps by overrating the potential of its players/prospects by a biased fan base.
.

We only have a few young players capable of being elite someday? Isn't that true for, you know, most clubs?

And how do you reconcile what you wrote with the actual facts, that our top six scoring is above average, and we're the only club currently with 4 20 goal scorers? And have how many guys in the top 90 scorers? And our new top line has been one of the most productive lines in the league?

 

[major major]

The bad blood between the two sides was palpable during and after the negotiations. It continued on and reached a head this season after Tortorella declared Johansen "out of shape" after watching him play one period. This assertion was obviously done on the behest of the front office. The relationship between the player and FO was fractured beyond repair as a direct result of the contentious negotiations.

Nothing mythological about it at all. Sorry it doesn't fit your narrative.

Obviously? There's a long printed record of Johansen's elders having issues with his attitude, play, etc... This goes back at least a year+ before the negotiation. Torts was no different, just quicker to be honest. Experienced hockey commentators have been saying for a while now that there is something seriously wrong with his game. It doesn't take more than two shifts for them to figure out what most of us here know, and you somehow don't know. It's not a JD/Jarmo conspiracy.

 

[major major]

Vogeezy, prime scoring age, defined as 90% of peak year scoring, is on average from age 24 to 32. Foligno is closer to the middle than the end. And he and Dubi are still going to be in that prime window when Saad, Jenner, and Wennberg enter it.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

And how do you reconcile what you wrote with the actual facts, that our top six scoring is above average, and we're the only club currently with 4 20 goal scorers? And have how many guys in the top 90 scorers? And our new top line has been one of the most productive lines in the league?

Source, please. Small sample size regardless. I hope you don't believe that #13, #38 and #17 is even a top 15 first line over a full season. They won't be.

16th in the league in scoring. All that money tied up in an average group.

Hartnell...60th
Saad.....70th
Atkinson...75th
Dubinsky...85th

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?rep...2016&gameType=2&sort=points&aggregate=0&pos=F


Wow. Really impressive. 4 top 90 forwards. Not a top 50 in the whole group. Plan the SC parade for next June. LOL

 

[Dr. Fire]

I don't think our forward group is as bad as some people here are saying. The big problem that I have seen all season is the defense. We may not have an "elite" forward or two now, but there is still room for improvement for a few of these guys.

The defense has been out and out abysmal. Better since Jones has been here, but needs a lot of work. Offense starts at the back end, and this group has been horrible at getting things moving out of their own zone. Jones and Murray are the exceptions. Rimming the puck around the boards doesn't start a rush up the ice.

Not to mention that our annual bad starts coincide with Bob's annual horrible starts. He can't seem to stop a beach ball in the first quarter of the season, then when he becomes a brick wall, it is too late. Then he gets hurt, and it's time for the fat lady to sing. Korpi's play mitigated that quite a bit this season to our surprise. I can't see CMac being here after this season. He has a few good starts but otherwise is a sieve.

Fourth line does need some work, as they get pinned in their own zone far to often.

If my partners drop out on me for next season, I am all done with the season tickets. That would be the first season since day 1 that I would not be a STH.

 

[EspenK]

I don't see Murray as having elite potential. Not even close. Might be an OK first pairing guy, but that's the high end for him. Doubt elite stauts for Jones either, but won't dismiss the possibility.

I'll take him as an ok 1st pair guy.


Currently, the leading CBJ scoring forward ranks 57th in the league. That's Scott Hartnell. Given the amount of $$$ locked up in long term forward contracts, this is not encouraging at all. Hartnell is due to decline.

Or he could be like Jagr or Iginla and remain productive

Dubinsky will be 30 years old going into next year and his style of play generally comes with peak scoring in a player's 20s. He's a 50 points scorer at best-terrible for a #1C.

I agree that we could have a more offensively oriented 1C

Foligno can be counted on for roughly 50 points. Saad about the same. Jenner is probably playing as well as he'll every play. Atkinson the same. Not a single forward even capable of 65 points among these. A bunch of decent 2nd liners, there's not one forward on this entire roster a top NHL team would covet as a top line player. Not one.

See Nick Folino 2014-15 season. Saad also has 60+ pt potential imo. Atkinson too, Team is the only one in NHL with 4 20+ goal scores-has to count for something.


Wennberg has the look of a 40-50 points player at best. The rest of the forwards are junk/fillers.

Well since Wennberg isn't a 1C in your mind then 40-50 isn't bad for him. I disagree that Calvert and Karlsson are junk/fillers. The rest of the rest you have a point.


The current "run" is nothing more than a function of normal fluctuation in a season. The CBJ have seen a lot of back up goalies and their overall schedule since the trade hasn't been very tough. they rank 23rd in points, tie for 16th in goals scored and are 26th in goals against. These are not indications of a good team. They are not a good team by any measure, except perhaps by overrating the potential of its players/prospects by a biased fan base.

There's no cap room to improve the offense. While Jarmo and JD might have bought a stay of execution by changing coaches and the big trade, that's all that they've done. This team isn't even a borderline playoff team most likely going into next year. There doesn't appear to be a prospect that is going really alter the equation for next season. Unless the Jackets win the lottery-a chance of, what, 5% or so.

With a 4-4 start this season they would be a borderline playoff team now. Your comment about next season is off base.

Does anyone really see a front office led by JD and JK starting the 2018-19 season? Their time is limited. It's a question of when they get bounced, not if. McConnell is probably going to be floored by the drop in season tickets next season. The end could be as soon as early next year if the team gets off to its traditional lousy start.

A lot can happen in the next 2 seasons. I'll take the over that they start 2018-19.

Many of us here are not happy with this team's performance either this year and for for its life. You seem to really have a major dislike for all things Jackets. Time for a new team for you? Nashville maybe?

 

[JacketsDavid]

The key word you're missing is "before"

This front office had concerns about him as a player - as a pro - for some time going back to his rookie season. This didn't start as a result of the negotiation - it is what caused the negotiation. It's a fact, not a narrative.

If they questioned him along a long, then why didn't they trade him at his peak (during last season)?

nder your n arrative the CBJ questioned him all along, they waited until he was a legit 1st line C, ticked him off more, let him regress to the point of being out of shape and moved to the 4th line then traded him. If that is indeed the case then I think we can all agree that they handled it terribly.

 

[EspenK]

If they questioned him along a long, then why didn't they trade him at his peak (during last season)?

nder your n arrative the CBJ questioned him all along, they waited until he was a legit 1st line C, ticked him off more, let him regress to the point of being out of shape and moved to the 4th line then traded him. If that is indeed the case then I think we can all agree that they handled it terribly.

That is really a goofy way of looking at it. How did the FO tick him off more after last season? How did they let him regress to the point of being out of shape? How did they let him refine his Nash 2.0 act this season? Joey's act was pretty much all on Joey.

 

[Samkow]

That is really a goofy way of looking at it. How did the FO tick him off more after last season? How did they let him regress to the point of being out of shape? How did they let him refine his Nash 2.0 act this season? Joey's act was pretty much all on Joey.

In between completely ignoring the heart issue he had over the summer and comparing him to a guy who asked out, I'm not sure any part of this post is grounded in reality.