Rumor: Things Not Left Unsaid: Flyers Rumors & Media Mentions

[deadhead]

With the addition of Drysdale, Walker is probably redundant, he's going to be 30.
I'm impressed with Walker's play, but they have plenty of mobile puck movers on defense now, and he'll probably want something in the range of $4-5M on an extension (already making $3.35M).

Walker is better than Risto but has a redundant skill set and maximum trade value.
Risto isn't going to get you much with 3x5 left on his deal, next summer, if Bonk or Attard show they can replace him, is the time to trade him with 2x5 left.

 

[Random Forest]

He's got 14 Points in his last 5 Games, deady. That's a sudden, unsustainable jump for everyone.

None of these prospects minus Michkov have ever passed a bar where you should be having meaningful expectations. Just push them to develop as best you can and see what you get. Make no decisions based on their existence whatsoever. But give them all the chance to be meaningful NHLers. Don't repeat the Hagg and Morin mistakes.

What was the mistake with Hagg and Morin? Both got plenty of development time before being thrust into the NHL. Hagg just sucked, and Morin couldn’t stay healthy (and was never going to be as good as we all wanted him to be). Having Bonk play two full post-draft years in London, then getting time in the AHL for another year or two is exactly how Morin was treated, no?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

What was the mistake with Hagg and Morin? Both got plenty of development time before being thrust into the NHL. Hagg just sucked, and Morin couldn’t stay healthy (and was never going to be as good as we all wanted him to be). Having Bonk play two full post-draft years in London, then getting time in the AHL for another year or two is exactly how Morin was treated, no?

We have it on record from those two that upon turning pro, the Flyers immediately tried to simplify their games to play much safer instead of pushing them to grow. Obviously it might not have worked. I just don't want to kneecap anyone by design.

 

[deadhead]

Morin had a fatal flaw, he couldn't handle a puck without looking down at it, and that will get you killed in the NHL, even if you're a big guy (plus you can't see what's happening on the ice if you look down all the time).

I think Hagg just maxed out at the AHL level, he had the size to be a good defensive defenseman but not the IQ, and his offensive skill set was mediocre, not awful, but not good enough to carry limited defense.

As we've seen, Risto would have benefited from lower expectations and a focus on sharpening his defensive fundamentals early in his career, the coaching in Buffalo must be awful (see how many of their players blossom elsewhere). Shaw has done wonders with him by getting him to focus on positioning and his defensive responsibilities.

 

[Danko]

Morin had a fatal flaw

My guy was playing on a bakers dozen knee surgeries.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Morin had a fatal flaw, he couldn't handle a puck without looking down at it, and that will get you killed in the NHL, even if you're a big guy (plus you can't see what's happening on the ice if you look down all the time).

I think Hagg just maxed out at the AHL level, he had the size to be a good defensive defenseman but not the IQ, and his offensive skill set was mediocre, not awful, but not good enough to carry limited defense.

These are excuses. Again, the specifics of Hagg and Morin are irrelevant. I'm speaking toward organizational approach. Do you try to maximize your assets? Some will bust. It's fine. But give yourself the shot.

As we've seen, Risto would have benefited from lower expectations and a focus on sharpening his defensive fundamentals early in his career, the coaching in Buffalo must be awful (see how many of their players blossom elsewhere). Shaw has done wonders with him by getting him to focus on positioning and his defensive responsibilities.

Risto was about to turn 27 when he was traded. If you think that's the same conversation as how to handle Hagg at 19, either I'm not making my point clear or we will never find any common ground on the issue. I'm focused on the top-down approach of the org because it's what interests me. I understand that's not true for everyone.

 

[Curufinwe]

The only way this makes any sense is if they think Seeler can be a 2nd pair defenseman paired with Drysdale and keep York and Sanheim together. If that’s the thinking, you would think they would pair the two together now and see if they have chemistry.

It makes sense to Flyers management cause they love Seeler and this is not a rebuild.

 

[deadhead]

I

These are excuses. Again, the specifics of Hagg and Morin are irrelevant. I'm speaking toward organizational approach. Do you try to maximize your assets? Some will bust. It's fine. But give yourself the shot.

The specifics are not irrelevant, you coach to your players' strengths and weaknesses.

But you do want to minimize players' liabilities, Attard is never going to be a defensive defenseman, but you want him to develop the fundamentals to at least not be a black hole on defense. Same holds for Drysdale. So teaching offensive first players defense is not "stifling their potential," it's making them more valuable players.

The one thing I value more and more over the years is hockey IQ (actually in all sports), it's nice to be fast, it's even nicer not to have to be fast b/c you know where to go. And it's a lot easier to coach players who have a clue.

 

[Danko]

I may have failed math. However it seems to be that a signed Nick Seeler has more trade value then a UFA Nick Seeler. With the caveat being that it is a decent contract.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Sign and trades don't happen with these types.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

The specifics are not irrelevant, you coach to your players' strengths and weaknesses.

But you do want to minimize players' liabilities, Attard is never going to be a defensive defenseman, but you want him to develop the fundamentals to at least not be a black hole on defense. Same holds for Drysdale. So teaching offensive first players defense is not "stifling their potential," it's making them more valuable players.

The one thing I value more and more over the years is hockey IQ (actually in all sports), it's nice to be fast, it's even nicer not to have to be fast b/c you know where to go. And it's a lot easier to coach players who have a clue.

That's not what I'm talking about either. I'm not saying to only focus on offense. You can teach defensive skills to players without hammering into them over and over again to take the safest route on the ice every time it's presented. That's what puts a hard cap on these guys.

The point is that no one knew what Hagg could be at 19. They decided he could never develop certain skills and then instructed him to continue with the assumption. That process is shit.

 

[wankstifier]

I may have failed math. However it seems to be that a signed Nick Seeler has more trade value then a UFA Nick Seeler. With the caveat being that it is a decent contract.

I'd doubt that they're thinking of extending a player with the intention of boosting their trade value.

 

[TheKingPin]

Any rumor on Hart being traded?

 

[deadhead]

The point is that no one knew what Hagg could be at 19. They decided he could never develop certain skills and then instructed him to continue with the assumption. That process is shit.

Isn't that why you have scouts, rookie camps and follow a player?
Now if you want to claim the Flyers didn't have the best scouts and coaches in the past . . .
Berube and Hakstol and even AV were all defensive oriented, in terms of "play it safe."

Can't say that about Torts, his teams are rarely in the top ten in xGA/60, rather, in xGF%/60, that is, he wants to control play and encourages his players to be aggressive, but with smarts and fundamentals. So D-men attack, but forwards are supposed to be aware and cycle back to CYA. And you'd better back check hard to minimize the damage from odd man rushes.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Isn't that why you have scouts, rookie camps and follow a player?
Now if you want to claim the Flyers didn't have the best scouts and coaches in the past . . .
Berube and Hakstol and even AV were all defensive oriented, in terms of "play it safe.

They're the same scouts and the same front office that drafted him at 41OA less than a calendar year before he played for the Phantoms. His rep was that of a two way player who is better offensively than defensively.

This is the same point as I made on Bonk. Opinions should not swing this wildly this quickly. It's a hallmark of bad process. Good process acknowledges your limitations. It's incredibly difficult, but it's possible with good leadership.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Isn't that why you have scouts, rookie camps and follow a player?
Now if you want to claim the Flyers didn't have the best scouts and coaches in the past . . .
Berube and Hakstol and even AV were all defensive oriented, in terms of "play it safe."

Can't say that about Torts, his teams are rarely in the top ten in xGA/60, rather, in xGF%/60, that is, he wants to control play and encourages his players to be aggressive, but with smarts and fundamentals. So D-men attack, but forwards are supposed to be aware and cycle back to CYA. And you'd better back check hard to minimize the damage from odd man rushes.

AV being defensively oriented points to the organizational pressure for safety. AV by his own choice would be anything but that.


Tortorella is absolutely about playing it safe. He loathes cross-ice passes. Likely the only reason he lets dmen attack is because there isn't the risk of a one-timer chance getting picked. It limits the team in the end and how they can play. It removes a dimension from the game and makes them easier for a smart coach to adjust to. This bleeds heavily into the PP as well.

 

[GKJ]

Just need to re-sign Walker and they’ll have no justification about calling this a rebuild. The 2011 offseason was a bigger rebuild than this.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Just need to re-sign Walker and they’ll have no justification about calling this a rebuild. The 2011 offseason was a bigger rebuild than this.

I'm troubled by rumors around Walker drying up in the new year. His play lately has tanked. The window for max value might be shut. As usual.

 

[GKJ]

I'm troubled by rumors around Walker drying up in the new year. His play lately has tanked. The window for max value might be shut. As usual.

Well the most concrete rumor we heard was Walker and Seeler together.

 

[trostol]

I'm troubled by rumors around Walker drying up in the new year. His play lately has tanked. The window for max value might be shut. As usual.

i said this like 2 weeks ago and someone said i was crazy..soon as the rumors about him started he should have been moved

 

[deadhead]

People take rumors way too seriously, what's the ratio of rumors to actual deals consummated?
20:1?
In this day and age, every reporter/blogger/podcast guy is looking for click bait.

So many rumors are simply speculation, Seeler and Walker are on one year deals, teams need defensemen, so there must be interest. Bingo, Flyers are shopping Walker . . .

And of course, "Briere talked to so and so" - uh, that's what GMs do, talk to everyone, gauge interest, keep lines of communication open for later in the season.

 

[Magua]

I do enjoy the talk of making Seeler a Flyer for a long time. He’s a career depth defender, without puck skills, who will be 31 starting his next contract. I absolutely believe he’s been a solid 3rd pair guy the last 2 years in some late career renaissance. But these guys fall off a f***ing cliff, and he’s still a nearly 31 year old 3rd pair guy! This team consistently fails this test.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I do enjoy the talk of making Seeler a Flyer for a long time. He’s a career depth defender, without puck skills, who will be 31 starting his next contract. I absolutely believe he’s been a solid 3rd pair guy the last 2 years in some late career renaissance. But these guys fall off a f***ing cliff, and he’s still a nearly 31 year old 3rd pair guy! This team consistently fails this test.

Meanwhile they aren't sure what to do with Frost, their only confirmed young center.

I'm fine with that! Life is confusing and terrifying.

 

[Magua]

Meanwhile they aren't sure what to do with Frost, their only confirmed young center.

Well, Cates is returning. And Tortorella said he’s coming off his best offensive game of the season 2 months ago.

 

[CerpinTaxt]

I do enjoy the talk of making Seeler a Flyer for a long time. He’s a career depth defender, without puck skills, who will be 31 starting his next contract. I absolutely believe he’s been a solid 3rd pair guy the last 2 years in some late career renaissance. But these guys fall off a f***ing cliff, and he’s still a nearly 31 year old 3rd pair guy! This team consistently fails this test.

But how is Bonk supposed to learn how to play like a professional and give his absolute all if he's not sitting up in the press box watching Seeler play his minutes 3 years from now?