Rumor: Things Not Left Unsaid 3 - Flyers Rumors and Media Mentions: Never Ending Circles

[pacehimself]

He didn't do it to Panarin, why will he do it to Michkov? I mean when Panarin came to Columbus, most fans were sure he would fail without Kane or at the very best going to be just another top6 skilled winger, absolutely useless without scoring points. And he became a franchize player. All while being coached by Torts...

Just playing devils advocate here, but wasn’t panarin much older when he came to the rangers? Who knows how Torts is going to treat Michkov, given he is only 19. Personally I think upper management is laying out the red carpet for Michkov. They are already trying to push him as the face of the franchise, so any issues between the two I assume is going to end up in favor of Michkov.

I am still disappointed in how the is whole “rebuild” has been conducted, but i am pretty excited to see what this kid can do this year. We got lucky as hell to have a talent like this.

 

[Tripod]

He didn't do it to Panarin, why will he do it to Michkov? I mean when Panarin came to Columbus, most fans were sure he would fail without Kane or at the very best going to be just another top6 skilled winger, absolutely useless without scoring points. And he became a franchize player. All while being coached by Torts...

He paced for 87 pts in the 2 seasons in Columbus.

Then his 1st year in NY, his pts jumped to 113. A 26 point jump once away from Torts. And he has paced for 108 as a Ranger. Under Torts, maybe he is "only" a sub 90 point guy.

It's quite clear that Torts and how he coaches, suppresses offense. No one says "I want to play for Torts because he preaches offense all the time". It's why 4th line guys love him...he overplays them. Christ, we saw him deploy 2D and 1F in OT for almost a year. That's defense 1st coach...and a p***y. We all can see how a putrid PP suppresses points....and wins. Konecny would very likely take a 10 point jump on a team with a normal PP and offense.

It's not just Torts. AV was the same thing. We all said Giroux was better than his point totals showed. his last 3 years as a Flyer he paced for 63 pts. Since leaving Philly, he has paced for 75 despite him being 34, 35 and 36 years old during those seasons.

You can bet MM will be scratched at some point next year and Torts will say "he is a great kid and going to be a star in this league. But he has to learn to play the right way and that's my job. Give the kid a break, he is working his ass off. But right now the game is coming too fast for him and the NHL is just different than over there. Gotta break some bad habits. But he will get there, it's just going to take some time."

And all the archaics can fondle themselves over Torts tough love like the good ol' days.

 

[Beef Invictus]

WOW! Is there any more negatives you guys can dig up?

Don't really have to dig, it's mostly all very obvious and on the surface.

 

[scumpup]

He paced for 87 pts in the 2 seasons in Columbus.

Then his 1st year in NY, his pts jumped to 113. A 26 point jump once away from Torts. And he has paced for 108 as a Ranger. Under Torts, maybe he is "only" a sub 90 point guy.

It's quite clear that Torts and how he coaches, suppresses offense. No one says "I want to play for Torts because he preaches offense all the time". It's why 4th line guys love him...he overplays them. Christ, we saw him deploy 2D and 1F in OT for almost a year. That's defense 1st coach...and a p***y. We all can see how a putrid PP suppresses points....and wins. Konecny would very likely take a 10 point jump on a team with a normal PP and offense.

It's not just Torts. AV was the same thing. We all said Giroux was better than his point totals showed. his last 3 years as a Flyer he paced for 63 pts. Since leaving Philly, he has paced for 75 despite him being 34, 35 and 36 years old during those seasons.

You can bet MM will be scratched at some point next year and Torts will say "he is a great kid and going to be a star in this league. But he has to learn to play the right way and that's my job. Give the kid a break, he is working his ass off. But right now the game is coming too fast for him and the NHL is just different than over there. Gotta break some bad habits. But he will get there, it's just going to take some time."

And all the archaics can fondle themselves over Torts tough love like the good ol' days.

If we replaced torts with a coach who didn't care about defense, and just told his players to crash the net and go for trick shots like bozos i'd be much happier. That team would make an ECF run on vibes alone.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Well prepared? How prepared do they have to be? He will be the center of attention which no doubt he wants. His arrival is like day 1. Presumably you expect improvement from that on a constant basis.

I'm not sure what you expected them to do with the cap they have and the lack of talent to trade. I'm fine with people who want to blame them for Gauthier, but everything else is pretty much the hold over from what they inherited. Maybe Briere and Jones haven't done enough for you, but I don't see any big new errors either.


I understand the cynicism but 3 years? Briere hasn't even had the job that long. I'm not as pessimistic. We shall see what happens now and how fast Michkov assimilates and develops.

Doing anything at all to get talent for him to play with in his prime would have been a good start. Instead of building from the 4th line out

 

[deadhead]

He paced for 87 pts in the 2 seasons in Columbus.

Then his 1st year in NY, his pts jumped to 113. A 26 point jump once away from Torts. And he has paced for 108 as a Ranger. Under Torts, maybe he is "only" a sub 90 point guy.

It's quite clear that Torts and how he coaches, suppresses offense. No one says "I want to play for Torts because he preaches offense all the time". It's why 4th line guys love him...he overplays them. Christ, we saw him deploy 2D and 1F in OT for almost a year. That's defense 1st coach...and a p***y. We all can see how a putrid PP suppresses points....and wins. Konecny would very likely take a 10 point jump on a team with a normal PP and offense.

It's not just Torts. AV was the same thing. We all said Giroux was better than his point totals showed. his last 3 years as a Flyer he paced for 63 pts. Since leaving Philly, he has paced for 75 despite him being 34, 35 and 36 years old during those seasons.

You can bet MM will be scratched at some point next year and Torts will say "he is a great kid and going to be a star in this league. But he has to learn to play the right way and that's my job. Give the kid a break, he is working his ass off. But right now the game is coming too fast for him and the NHL is just different than over there. Gotta break some bad habits. But he will get there, it's just going to take some time."

And all the archaics can fondle themselves over Torts tough love like the good ol' days.

Panarin 24-25 in Chi, 53 and 57 ES points
Panarin 26-27 in CBJ, 61 and 69 ES points
Panarin 28-32 in NY, 71, 72 (PR), 59, 56, 75 ES points

 

[Amorgus]

So you wanted them to move out the existing talent to bring in future talent and that makes us what. better? Better for Michkov?

 

[VladDrag]

To be fair the Sabre’s might actually be worse run than the Flyers lol. Also, as great as a prospect as Eichel was the only appeal he has over Michkov as a prospect is that he’s a center, Michkov is a better prospect, it’s rather close ish though.

I don't know if Michkov is a significantly much better prospect than Eichel was at the same year. That's not me saying Michkov isn't a better prospect or that Michkov won't be better.

What I will say is that Jack Eichel during his time in Buffalo was very good and underrated player. His raw scoring numbers were somewhat suppressed due to the poor team around him. It would go a long way if Michkov could produce the same impact Eichel had in his 20 through 22 year old seasons (from 25-26 through 27-28).

 

[deadhead]

I think we should just be patient with Michkov, he's not the savior.
If reports are correct and he's amenable to hard coaching and is win first (not pad stats), he'll have no problem with Torts.

Flyers play an up tempo, attack system, Michkov will have plenty of opportunities.
It would help if he had the right center, a healthy Couts would be ideal (G had his career seasons next to Couts), not sure Frost is a good fit given he may be best on a "speed" line with Tippett.

While I don't expect scorers to be Selke candidates, if you want to win, you want your best players to try on defense and not be liabilities. I don't think it'll hurt Michkov's scoring to back check and be fundamentally sound on defense.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Panarin 24-25 in Chi, 53 and 57 ES points
Panarin 26-27 in CBJ, 61 and 69 ES points
Panarin 28-32 in NY, 71, 72 (PR), 59, 56, 75 ES points

Did you know that goals scored on the PP count towards the score in games?

As for the above post, the Flyers do not play an "attack" system. No system that puts the hard limits that Tortorella mandates on playmaking can be described as "attacking." That's why they're bad at goal scoring.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I don't know if Michkov is a significantly much better prospect than Eichel was at the same year. That's not me saying Michkov isn't a better prospect or that Michkov won't be better.

What I will say is that Jack Eichel during his time in Buffalo was very good and underrated player. His raw scoring numbers were somewhat suppressed due to the poor team around him. It would go a long way if Michkov could produce the same impact Eichel had in his 20 through 22 year old seasons (from 25-26 through 27-28).

View attachment 896812

Please tell me no one is saying he's a significantly better prospect than Eichel. I don't know why we have to lose our minds.

I think you can construct a totally reasonable argument that both are low Tier 1 or high Tier 2 prospects depending on whether you draw a hard line between the Bedards and guys like these two. But the trickiness of determining exactly what is going on with KHL scoring means that even if you have them on the same level, the Michkov side carries more risk as far as projecting a player of that scale. That has no bearing on his reasonable ceiling paths, but it does lower a moderate band of outcomes.

 

[trostol]

i think most of the fans here...know to be patient..i think most of the fans other wheres ..won't be overly patient

 

[Curufinwe]

To be fair the Sabre’s might actually be worse run than the Flyers lol. Also, as great as a prospect as Eichel was the only appeal he has over Michkov as a prospect is that he’s a center, Michkov is a better prospect, it’s rather close ish though.

I'm getting flashbacks to people saying they wouldn't trade the #2 pick in 2017 for MacKinnon.

 

[flyersnorth]

I'm getting flashbacks to people saying they wouldn't trade the #2 pick in 2017 for MacKinnon.

That sounds crazy in hindsight. At the same time, I just looked up MacKinnon's development path, and in Patrick's draft year, MacKinnon was a 0.65 ppg player (and 0.69 ppg through his first four seasons).

He more than doubled that the next year (1.31 ppg) and never looked back.

But yeah, I would have taken MacKinnon over Patrick all day every day. I liked him since seeing him play junior hockey.

 

[VladDrag]

Please tell me no one is saying he's a significantly better prospect than Eichel. I don't know why we have to lose our minds.

I went back and re-read the comment to which I replied. I think I mis-read it -- if so, sorry @HeadLiceHatty. It said 'it's rather close ish tho'. I took it to mean it's not rather close and assumed that the 'ish' was some kind of typo. But now, I'm realizing that he was probably saying that Michkov is only a slightly better prospect.

 

[deadhead]

Did you know that goals scored on the PP count towards the score in games?

As for the above post, the Flyers do not play an "attack" system. No system that puts the hard limits that Tortorella mandates on playmaking can be described as "attacking." That's why they're bad at goal scoring.

PP is more variable, ES scoring tends to be more stable year to year.

And ES scoring reflects both linemates and system, if Torts was ultra-conservative, Panarin should have fallen off in CBJ before reviving in NY.

 

[Beef Invictus]

PP is more variable, ES scoring tends to be more stable year to year.

And ES scoring reflects both linemates and system, if Torts was ultra-conservative, Panarin should have fallen off in CBJ before reviving in NY.

Tortorella's PPs are very stably terrible. Similar to how GF is stably terrible relative to xGF.

Panarin did fall off and then revive in NY.

 

[Fight4yourRight]

PP is more variable, ES scoring tends to be more stable year to year.

And ES scoring reflects both linemates and system, if Torts was ultra-conservative, Panarin should have fallen off in CBJ before reviving in NY.

Omg. You’re back.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Please tell me no one is saying he's a significantly better prospect than Eichel. I don't know why we have to lose our minds.

I think you can construct a totally reasonable argument that both are low Tier 1 or high Tier 2 prospects depending on whether you draw a hard line between the Bedards and guys like these two. But the trickiness of determining exactly what is going on with KHL scoring means that even if you have them on the same level, the Michkov side carries more risk as far as projecting a player of that scale. That has no bearing on his reasonable ceiling paths, but it does lower a moderate band of outcomes.

Eichel has quietly been one of the better two-way centers in the league in recent years. I think being sandwiched in an era with McDavid & Matthews it kind of gets overshadowed. He doesn’t put up the offensive production like those two but those two are also tracking to be in that really really elite all time group of guys.

 

[Curufinwe]

Pretty impressive for TK to be the 8th highest scorer taken in 2015.

Elite Prospects - NHL Entry Draft 2015

NHL Entry Draft 2015 - full list of selections with facts and stats.

www.eliteprospects.com

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Pretty impressive for TK to be the 8th highest scorer taken in 2015.

Elite Prospects - NHL Entry Draft 2015

NHL Entry Draft 2015 - full list of selections with facts and stats.

www.eliteprospects.com

Another reason he deserves his 10 million per.

 

[Adam Warlock]

I think we should just be patient with Michkov, he's not the savior.
If reports are correct and he's amenable to hard coaching and is win first (not pad stats), he'll have no problem with Torts.

Flyers play an up tempo, attack system, Michkov will have plenty of opportunities.
It would help if he had the right center, a healthy Couts would be ideal (G had his career seasons next to Couts), not sure Frost is a good fit given he may be best on a "speed" line with Tippett.

While I don't expect scorers to be Selke candidates, if you want to win, you want your best players to try on defense and not be liabilities. I don't think it'll hurt Michkov's scoring to back check and be fundamentally sound on defense.

I dont disagree...but what I dont want is them to hyper focus on his defense before he even establishes his offense. Let him work to his stengths first and gain confidence. A competitor like him will want to better his all around game overtime.

Crosby in his early years put up points...but he was immature, selfish, and not a great two way player. By the time he was in his mid 20s...he was a dark horse selke contender.

MM will get there...but they have to let him excell offensively first. If they sacrifice his offense early...things can fall apart quickly. Id much rather him score 70 points and be a defensive liabilty this year than him struggle to put up points bc hes focused on 2way play that hes not excelling at yet either.

 

[BiggE]

If Torts was coaching the Flyers in 92, he would have had Lindros centering Evans and Paslawski rather than Recchi & Fedyk.

Torts is to offense as kryptonite is to Superman

 

[BernieParent]

Panarin 24-25 in Chi, 53 and 57 ES points
Panarin 26-27 in CBJ, 61 and 69 ES points
Panarin 28-32 in NY, 71, 72 (PR), 59, 56, 75 ES points

DEAD!!!!!!

 

[JojoTheWhale]

PP is more variable, ES scoring tends to be more stable year to year.

And ES scoring reflects both linemates and system, if Torts was ultra-conservative, Panarin should have fallen off in CBJ before reviving in NY.

Hope you've been well, deady.