Rumor: Things Not Left Unsaid 3 - Flyers Rumors and Media Mentions: Never Ending Circles

[Curufinwe]

Yeah, I put him down for 8 x $9m.

 

[renberg]

This gushing all over Gauthier may be a tad off target. Let's let him play in the show for a while before assigning star status to him.
AIR scouting prior to the draft clearly stated that he was not a center and therefore not worthy of being a top five pick. There were many here who were let down with his selection hoping that either Cooley or Wright would fall to five for the Flyers. Some questioned whether he belonged on the top line of the U.S. international teams. He has a great shot but no one ever credited him with similar passing ability. He was not considered to be a play driver while on the ice and fared well on only one end of the ice. Sure he scored in NCAA competition but whether that translates at the same rate in the NHL remains to be seen.
In the end, if Drysdale can get healthy and stay there, a top six wing for a top four RHD isn't necessarily a bad trade. Lets see how it plays out before making a final judgement.

 

[Curufinwe]

I'm not a Cutter Gusher, but the Flyers only have one left handed wing who is any good, and they're apparently trying to move him because of the idiot head coach.

They could use a player like Gauthier much more than a small RHD who will be lucky to play half the season.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

For better or worse, Briere has placed his early legacy on the back of three players:

Bonk
Drysdale
Luchanko

... considering the Flyers could have easily surrounded Michkov with elite talent in Perreault, Gauthier, and Buium. I don't blame Danny for the Gauthier situation, based on what we know of how it went down. However, after seeing that Buffalo was able to turn Casey Mittelstadt into Bowen Byram, you'd have to think Gauthier (during a lights-out season) could have fetched a more potent return than the Flyers received.

And, if you believe the public sources that Briere wanted to trade Gauthier to Montreal last year to draft Reinbacher, it makes you wonder if the Flyers will be constantly repeating past mistakes under Briere. The Flyers, as a top-to-bottom organization, still seem to overvalue "safe" Canadian kids who "play the game the right way" and overvalue elite talent with flashy toolkits.

Michkov was the exception to the ^ rule which had me thinking Briere and Jones were truly building the Flyers differently. However, after that pick, it seems they resorted back to their old ways -- opting for safe and solid as opposed to eye-popping spectacular.

Unfortunately, in 4 years or so, I fully suspect Briere will look like a lunatic for passing on Buium for Luchanko. It will be worse than Hextall passing on Makar or Heiskanen for Patrick since Patrick was the Canadian media darling for 18 months and Luchanko was a reach.

But I still cannot fathom how Briere could pass on a talent like Buium (who fell right into his lap) after he and Jones rambled on about "building from an elite back-end..."

I spoke to an OHL scout who has watched Luchanko up close. He shared the good and the bad...

THE GOOD:
1. Great speed.
2. One of the youngest players in the draft
3. Extremely high IQ and hockey sense
4. Brilliant in-tight passer (he said he would have more assists if Guelph had better finishers)
5. He's a bull, very strong and sturdy

THE BAD:
1. Not a very good goal scorer and is a reluctant shooter
2. Below 50% on draws and doesn't have good instincts in the dot
3. Isn't sure if he will play C in the NHL
4. If he does ^ he will be a "good 2C" or a "great 3C"

But he also said that passing on Buium for him could set the Flyers back quite a bit from reaching "serious contender status" when they feel they are ready. He also said that Helenius projects to be a better (and more dynamic) centerman at the NHL level. If his eyes, the Flyers passed on a potential elite 1D and very good 1C or elite 2C for a very good forward who "could be a nice second-line center if everything goes perfectly. But not the cornerstone pivot you want to pair with Michkov for a decade."

I'm also curious about how Briere proceeds with trades. So far, the jury is still out on the Gauthier trade, but why is Danny so reluctant to deal Laughton, when there has been tons of smoke mentioning very solid possible returns? Is he going to "sell high" on Konecny or cave and overpay him in salary and term? Is he going to make a gutsy trade for a potential gamebreaker like Necas or Ehlers so Tippett and Michkov don't have to carry the full load?

Briere and Jones said all the right things. They also did some very nice things early on, such as being extremely transparent and putting the double logo back at center ice the way Mr. Snider liked it. I certainly feel these guys want to do well and right the ship, but I'm worried there are still some old philosophies and reflexes starting to kick in that are reminiscent of past, failed eras.

I do what happened should never have happened.

Both are frauds at this point. When you have nothing, and no solutions go back to the culture and Flyers way garbage to reel em in.

 

[thedjpd]

If TK wants 10 he will get close to it.

Briere has zero leverage. He has backed himself into a corner bc he has decided they have to sign TK. TK camp knows they will never trade him...so hes either gonna get Briere to cave with a fat contract or walk as a UFA.

Briere shouldve been shopping him aggressively this whole time so that media was reporting on it...that way if TK really wants to stay, hed panic and lower his asking price. And hey, maybe a team overpays too.

Once again, the Flyers loyalty above all hurts them. Agents know the Flyers are still the biggest suckers in the league.

I don't really agree. I think if TK still asks for 10M+, that would be the reason they do trade him, seeing what Guentzel and Reinhart got.

He was able to ask for 10M+ without knowing what they'd get; now, they are more effective players who make less, so I think his leverage is down.

 

[thedjpd]

This gushing all over Gauthier may be a tad off target. Let's let him play in the show for a while before assigning star status to him.
AIR scouting prior to the draft clearly stated that he was not a center and therefore not worthy of being a top five pick. There were many here who were let down with his selection hoping that either Cooley or Wright would fall to five for the Flyers. Some questioned whether he belonged on the top line of the U.S. international teams. He has a great shot but no one ever credited him with similar passing ability. He was not considered to be a play driver while on the ice and fared well on only one end of the ice. Sure he scored in NCAA competition but whether that translates at the same rate in the NHL remains to be seen.
In the end, if Drysdale can get healthy and stay there, a top six wing for a top four RHD isn't necessarily a bad trade. Lets see how it plays out before making a final judgement.

I agree; but it would be unfair to dismiss CG due to pre-draft scouting being somewhat correct then evaluating Luchanko similarly; situations are different, but it's logically inconsistent to say CG can't be a center due to his draft status but then think Luchanko can exceed his draft potential.

However, player evaluation, for this reason, is sketchy.

For example, everybody has questioned CG's ability to be a playmaker - but then in the WJC, he led the tournament in scoring on the heals of many assists. A deeper look to that production was actually that 4-5 of them were off of faceoffs, and a couple were secondaries that didn't include great passes. 3-4 of them were pretty solid players (off of PP, behind the back pass), so the talent for him to do so does exist.

So then it becomes a matter of perspective: supporters will say that he can be one, and detractors will say he can't.

Along the same lines, he is a very arrogant player, and this comes off even in his latest comments. It's weird that he wants to 'show up the Flyers' - when he's the one that asked for the trade, so I don't get that logic. He seems like a narcisssist "Trade me, I hate you and your organization, so I don't want to play for you. But after I get traded, I'll show you why it was a mistake to trade me!" Like, wtf?

Anyway - lot of words to say that I don't anoint CG anything, but like I touched on in my last post, Drysdale needs to hit otherwise it was a big mistake to trade him when they did, or at least, for what they did.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Was it really a big mistake to trade Cutter when they did?

The kid lied to the team because he wanted to be drafted as highly as possible, knowing it's $$$.

Then tells them a couple months later he doesn't want to sign with them -- and from multiple interviews with Briere & Jones, he took that stance in the fall directly after he was drafted. Before they were in charge.

You keep hanging on to him, knowing he isn't signing, and his value keeps dropping as other teams find out. Play chicken with him, and he does a Kevin Hayes and goes to free agency and you get absolutely nothing for a 5th overall pick.

This is why people discounting the NCAA angle with Buium are being naive.

Same agent. He dropped to 12 for a reason. You really want to spend that pick on someone who may force a trade or free agency?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Was it really a big mistake to trade Cutter when they did?

The kid lied to the team because he wanted to be drafted as highly as possible, knowing it's $$$.

Then tells them a couple months later he doesn't want to sign with them -- and from multiple interviews with Briere & Jones, he took that stance in the fall directly after he was drafted. Before they were in charge.

You keep hanging on to him, knowing he isn't signing, and his value keeps dropping as other teams find out. Play chicken with him, and he does a Kevin Hayes and goes to free agency and you get absolutely nothing for a 5th overall pick.

This is why people discounting the NCAA angle with Buium are being naive.

Same agent. He dropped to 12 for a reason. You really want to spend that pick on someone who may force a trade or free agency?

For who they did? Yes.

This isn't hindsight either. This is yet another supposedly "negative" assessment that was made at the time and has been proven correct.

 

[freakydallas13]

It matters less what we think Gauthier will become, and more what his value to Briere and other GMs around the league was at the time of the trade.

 

[thedjpd]

Was it really a big mistake to trade Cutter when they did?

The kid lied to the team because he wanted to be drafted as highly as possible, knowing it's $$$.

Then tells them a couple months later he doesn't want to sign with them -- and from multiple interviews with Briere & Jones, he took that stance in the fall directly after he was drafted. Before they were in charge.

You keep hanging on to him, knowing he isn't signing, and his value keeps dropping as other teams find out. Play chicken with him, and he does a Kevin Hayes and goes to free agency and you get absolutely nothing for a 5th overall pick.

This is why people discounting the NCAA angle with Buium are being naive.

Same agent. He dropped to 12 for a reason. You really want to spend that pick on someone who may force a trade or free agency?

Oh, I agree 100%, I think management's mistake was drafting him to begin with but its' hard to blame them if he lied.

However, he was never going to lose status as a prospect, so I don't know if his value would have dropped as rumor had it there were already 15-20 teams in the know - beyond that, doubt it matter all that much. There's enough competition for a highly drafted prospect with size that teams will still fight over him and we could wait for the right team to move him too - the concept that his value would drop after teams knowing isn't all that accurate; because:

1) a lot of teams knew already
2) he's still a high value commodity
3) competition for his services would still be plenty

So I don't fault them for making that call; I don't think it's wrong per se, but I think they could have targeted a different return. If so desperate for C, why not have used him for a more robust C option? If they wanted big D, why did they trade for a small one?

These are the inconsistencies that boggle my mind a bit.

 

[Hexxxy]

Cutter is the Hockey Gods demanding the interest paid in full on Lindros. Scott Stevens paid the principal for us.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

For who they did? Yes.

This isn't hindsight either. This is yet another supposedly "negative" assessment that was made at the time and has been proven correct.

"Proven correct"?

Based on what?

Do you know what other trade offers were on the table?

Has Cutter Gauthier played an NHL game, let alone "proven" anything at the NHL level?

Do you know what 22 year-old Jamie Drysdale is going to be as an NHL player?

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think it's weird that we put any trust at all into management's claims about what a player did. They've spent decades through the Clarke Era of Maximum Egomania lying about players. They even tried to smear Giroux. There is nobody they won't treat like shit or be dishonest about.

 

[Beef Invictus]

"Proven correct"?

Drysdale is a bust.

Based on what?

Based on terrible value returned based on what we know of his rumored value, whether we personally agree with those valuations or not.

Do you know what other trade offers were on the table?

We do know that they didn't try for BPA, they tried for Murray's mancrush and for need. That's terrible.

Has Cutter Gauthier played an NHL game, let alone proven anything at the NHL level?

Yes.

Do you know what 22 year-old Jamie Drysdale is going to be as an NHL player?

Yes.

Fast forward another 2 years and you'll be pretending you had a complete opposite stance.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Drysdale is a bust.



Based on terrible value returned based on what we know of his rumored value, whether we personally agree with those valuations or not.



We do know that they didn't try for BPA, they tried for Murray's mancrush and for need. That's terrible.



Yes.



Yes.

Fast forward another 2 years and you'll be pretending you had a complete opposite stance.

I'm impressed by your ability to define yourself so perfectly in one post.

To you, "proof" = your feelings.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I'm impressed by your ability to define yourself so perfectly in one post.

To you, "proof" = your feelings.

I will not dig up the sources for you because every time anyone does that, you proclaim the sources invalid. You have disincentivized that, and it's clear you are very uninformed and require a lengthy education if you didn't even know he has played in the NHL, on top of apparently being ignorant of the well-known processes at work. You probably didn't even watch him play. You are determined to blindly have zealous, unyielding faith in everything the Flyers do. Which is weird considering the results.

Fascinating, though, that you jumped straight to the ad hominens. Because you have no rebuttal.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Therien’s old agent is Konecny’s. He said on the STG podcast that he thinks they’ll take it in season without a contract if they don’t get the number they like. He said they have their number & they’re not coming off it.

He did ultimately say he thinks Konecny re-signs at $8.5x8 when it’s all said & done. So I guess we’ll see.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

This gushing all over Gauthier may be a tad off target. Let's let him play in the show for a while before assigning star status to him.
AIR scouting prior to the draft clearly stated that he was not a center and therefore not worthy of being a top five pick. There were many here who were let down with his selection hoping that either Cooley or Wright would fall to five for the Flyers. Some questioned whether he belonged on the top line of the U.S. international teams. He has a great shot but no one ever credited him with similar passing ability. He was not considered to be a play driver while on the ice and fared well on only one end of the ice. Sure he scored in NCAA competition but whether that translates at the same rate in the NHL remains to be seen.
In the end, if Drysdale can get healthy and stay there, a top six wing for a top four RHD isn't necessarily a bad trade. Lets see how it plays out before making a final judgement.

JD has been less than impressive when he has been "healthy". The fact the GM traded for a guy he knew was not 100% healthy then played him speaks volumes.

The body parts on JD that have been compromised are not parts you want compromised. Nothing I have seen shows me he is a top 4 D at all so far. All about draft status and name at the moment.

 

[Adam Warlock]

I don't really agree. I think if TK still asks for 10M+, that would be the reason they do trade him, seeing what Guentzel and Reinhart got.

He was able to ask for 10M+ without knowing what they'd get; now, they are more effective players who make less, so I think his leverage is down.

From what most of the beats have said...they so not invision a future without TK. Maube youre right and they decide to trade him if he wont budge...but it seems like theyll cave before he does.

Was it really a big mistake to trade Cutter when they did?

The kid lied to the team because he wanted to be drafted as highly as possible, knowing it's $$$.

Then tells them a couple months later he doesn't want to sign with them -- and from multiple interviews with Briere & Jones, he took that stance in the fall directly after he was drafted. Before they were in charge.

You keep hanging on to him, knowing he isn't signing, and his value keeps dropping as other teams find out. Play chicken with him, and he does a Kevin Hayes and goes to free agency and you get absolutely nothing for a 5th overall pick.

This is why people discounting the NCAA angle with Buium are being naive.

Same agent. He dropped to 12 for a reason. You really want to spend that pick on someone who may force a trade or free agency?

Id prefer this not be a loser organization that treats kids like dogs and deters young talent from wanting to come here.

Not defending how Cutter handled the situation...but it still annoys me that the Flyers cant hold up a mirror and see why he mightve not wanted to play here.

The fact that he wanted out and Michkovs camps biggest sticking point was he cant go to the AHL says a lot to me. These kids know their value and know its total BS to tell kids who already are more talented than half the roster that they have to "earn" a spot and might get held back bc some scrub got into fights and blocked shots in camp so they are more deserving of a roster spot. Everyone knows thats how thw Flyers value players and its made them a laughing stock.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I will not dig up the sources for you because every time anyone does that, you proclaim the sources invalid. You have disincentivized that, and it's clear you are very uninformed and require a lengthy education if you didn't even know he has played in the NHL, on top of apparently being ignorant of the well-known processes at work. You probably didn't even watch him play. You are determined to blindly have zealous, unyielding faith in everything the Flyers do. Which is weird considering the results.

Fascinating, though, that you jumped straight to the ad hominens. Because you have no rebuttal.

Still waiting for the "proof" that's beyond your feelings.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Still waiting for the "proof" that's beyond your feelings.

Google it. It isn't my job to educate someone who routinely chooses to be selectively ignorant.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

It's really funny that we think either a) Cutter would have waited 3 years without a contract and\or b) that his value was going to diminish over that time. It doesn't matter what the other GM's know. It's a market for a high end ELC player

 

[sauce88]

It's been a decade since the Hextall-era started and when the Flyers started to slow cook prospects and have them "earn it" to the detriment of this team (at least blatantly). Hextall and Fletcher never filled out the bottom of the roster with quality players to have this mindset. Every player and agent could see how this team handles prospects, how it isn't based on merit but some kind of weird self-imposed philosophy this team decided to have out of nowhere.

I have no clue why this philosophy came about and why it's been the one thing that has stuck around. The Holmgren era Flyers were full of youth, Sbisa played his D+1 year for part of the season as a d-man, Giroux was out there to close the game in game 7 against Boston as a 22 year old for f*ck's sake. This current version of the Flyers would never.

 

[Cody Webster]

Was it really a big mistake to trade Cutter when they did?

The kid lied to the team because he wanted to be drafted as highly as possible, knowing it's $$$.

Then tells them a couple months later he doesn't want to sign with them -- and from multiple interviews with Briere & Jones, he took that stance in the fall directly after he was drafted. Before they were in charge.

You keep hanging on to him, knowing he isn't signing, and his value keeps dropping as other teams find out. Play chicken with him, and he does a Kevin Hayes and goes to free agency and you get absolutely nothing for a 5th overall pick.

This is why people discounting the NCAA angle with Buium are being naive.

Same agent. He dropped to 12 for a reason. You really want to spend that pick on someone who may force a trade or free agency?

Just curious, do you have proof of this?

 

[Boxscore]

I don't really agree. I think if TK still asks for 10M+, that would be the reason they do trade him, seeing what Guentzel and Reinhart got.

He was able to ask for 10M+ without knowing what they'd get; now, they are more effective players who make less, so I think his leverage is down.

Agree 100%. Konecny only has leverage because he knows the Flyers are likely to cave since they haven't already traded him. There's no way he deserves Reinhart money and any reasonable fan, or hockey person, knows this.

If Konecny doesn't give the Flyers a fair deal, let alone a hometown discount, he should be traded immediately. End of story. They already have Couturier's contract on the books that will likely be an albatross in the coming years. They cannot be saddled with another simply because TK is a "Torts player." This is the kind of thinking that hampered the Flyers for years.

Every single decision made today should revolve around surrounding Michkov with the cheapest, youngest, and most elite talent possible to perfectly align with his rise to stardom and the Flyers plan to spend on world-class targets. You can't do that by reaching in the draft and overpaying for "good-to-very-good" players.