Rumor: Things Not Left Unsaid 3 - Flyers Rumors and Media Mentions: Never Ending Circles

[orangey]

Cutter is an incredibly talented athlete. Selfish, narcissistic person.

If you don't want to play for a team, you tell them before they draft you 5th overall. You don't say you were "born to be a Flyer" and then tell the team you aren't signing a few months later.

I have no doubt he'll be a pretty big goal scorer in the NHL. Many on this board hated the pick. Not because they thought he wouldn't sign, but because they thought he wasn't that good. Seems like many of the the same people who didn't like the pick hated the trade. Ironic.

Michkov essentially forced his way here in the draft and then got out of his contract two years early to come here, so I don't want to read the implication that players don't want to play in Philly. Hathaway just extended at basically no raise. Erik Johnson extended for a mere $1M and raved about how much he liked it here.

As was reported from what leaked from the Cutter camp; the fracture point was them telling him he would get a contract after the first NCAA season, and then going back on it and not offering it (different GM but still). He would be here if they gave him what he wanted (and was agreed to by Chuckles) but Briere made his call - and a bit of a gamble that he could get away with it - and it backfired on him and the player told them to get stuffed as a result. It was almost entirely over money and he wanted it sooner, and probably much more importantly to become a FA sooner so he could get much more of it.

There were other contributing factors too I'm sure like the coach and how he interacted with players (lol), likely role (wanted to play center), and probably some other things too but contract/money turned a workable relationship into a situation where he stopped talking to the Flyers completely the moment that promised contract was not forthcoming. The timing is not a coincidence. That's him saying, lie to me yeah? Well then F you. We're done. I will never play here for you clowns.

 

[usahockey22flyers]

The idea the Flyers would have drafted Reinbacher ahead of Michkov is still hilarious to me. Like, Michkov is the sole reason to have any hope at all in this org's decision making process, and the Flyers still wanted BIG more than they did Matvei.

I think it was more or less they knew AZ wasn't taking Michkov at 6, so it ensured them to end up with Reinbacher at Michkov I guess? I don't know

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

As was reported from what leaked from the Cutter camp; the fracture point was them telling him he would get a contract after the first NCAA season, and then going back on it and not offering it (different GM but still). He would be here if they gave him what he wanted (and was agreed to by Chuckles) but Briere made his call - and a bit of a gamble that he could get away with it - and it backfired on him and the player told them to get stuffed as a result. It was almost entirely over money and he wanted it sooner, and probably much more importantly to become a FA sooner so he could get much more of it.

There were other contributing factors too I'm sure like the coach and how he interacted with players (lol), likely role (wanted to play center), and probably some other things too but contract/money turned a workable relationship into a situation where he stopped talking to the Flyers completely the moment that promised contract was not forthcoming. The timing is not a coincidence. That's him saying, lie to me yeah? Well then F you. We're done. I will never play here for you clowns.

Spittin’ Chiclets made it seem like Gauthier’s camp didn’t like the power Tortorella wielded & had no faith in Briere as a rookie GM reeling that in. It was vague but I guess that could include the contract situation & then that summer where Tortorella forced all the guys he didn’t like out including Hayes which was another rumored point of contention.

 

[Magua]

The idea the Flyers would have drafted Reinbacher ahead of Michkov is still hilarious to me. Like, Michkov is the sole reason to have any hope at all in this org's decision making process, and the Flyers still wanted BIG more than they did Matvei.

I assume they knew they'd get Michkov. But I always like that Reinbacher was their #1 option in a Gauthier trade. Another RHD? No way! What are the odds? And this one 6'3, with questionable skill, waiting to be over-drafted. And when they couldn't get him, they got another top 10 prospect at pick 22, who is another 6'3 RHD!

 

[orangey]

Spittin’ Chiclets made it seem like Gauthier’s camp didn’t like the power Tortorella wielded & had no faith in Briere as a rookie GM reeling that in. It was vague but I guess that could include the contract situation & then that summer where Tortorella forced all the guys he didn’t like out including Hayes which was another rumored point of contention.

Yeah I'm sure all of that contributed but like I said he stopped talking to them right after the contract fiasco... and I'm not sure we really need to dig much more deeply than that. I'd probably be pissed too to miss out of potentially millions of career earning as a result. Who wouldn't. Maybe it was the final straw but it was a pretty big freaking straw and he has a valid point to be miffed about it.

 

[freakydallas13]

I assume they knew they'd get Michkov. But I always like that Reinbacher was their #1 option in a Gauthier trade. Another RHD? No way! What are the odds? And this one 6'3, with questionable skill, waiting to be over-drafted. And when they couldn't get him, they got another top 10 prospect at pick 22, who is another 6'3 RHD!

You cannot convince me that if the Flyers had to choose between Reinbacher and Michkov at the draft they still take Michkov. Every other move Briere has made points to them betting the big RHD before anything else.

He is the protégé of Charles Fletcher after all.

 

[thedjpd]

Just curious, do you have proof of this?

This was gone over pretty well in the PHLY broadcast from Charlie a while ago. I think "couple of months" is a bit of an exaggeration, what he reported was the following:

1) Cutter gets drafted
2) Both agree he's going to BC for at least the next year
3) Conversations started about signing Cutter and going pro prior to his sophomore season
4) Flyers were ready to sign him; CG indicated that he wanted to go back becuase BC sold him hard on going back to pay wtih Smith, Leonard, etc. and win a championship
5) Flyers left that conversation with the impression that "Sure, no problem, we're on board with whatever you want."
6) Gauthier left that conversation with "BC sold me hard, these guys didn't. Not sure if these guys really want me."
7) CG then goes to worlds and plays really well and was like "F this, I don't need to go back, I'm ready for the pros" and was deeply offended that the Flyers didn't try to convince him hard enough, and then asks to be traded.

It fits; I don't know if it's accurate, but it tracks well- putting in all sides together that Briere said they walked away positive from the Pro/college discussion - but CG clearly came out negative.

Where there's blame here on management is being out to lunch on the events of that conversation and maybe misreading the entire situation. That's fair criticism. It's also fair to say the reaction to that to go silent and avoid a professional organization is quite petty.

It tracks well to a management that was in flux after the firing of a GM being a bit in shambles and maybe not reading the situation and bungling it, and also to a self-involved petulant child who wanted to be worshipped.

I think both are true.

EDIT: I'll also add, this WJC group seems like that in general - arrogance because of the praise they got, etc. Leonard not signing, McGroarty - I'm wondering if they all talked about doing this crap. Who knows.

 

[thedjpd]

The idea the Flyers would have drafted Reinbacher ahead of Michkov is still hilarious to me. Like, Michkov is the sole reason to have any hope at all in this org's decision making process, and the Flyers still wanted BIG more than they did Matvei.

Well, I think Flyers know Arizona wouldn't take Michkov at 6 regardless becuase he told them not to. So it makes sense - there's a chance they would have taken Reinbacher over Simashev, and they knew that, so you do in this case take the D you want knowing they weren't going to take Michkov at 6.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

As was reported from what leaked from the Cutter camp; the fracture point was them telling him he would get a contract after the first NCAA season, and then going back on it and not offering it (different GM but still). He would be here if they gave him what he wanted (and was agreed to by Chuckles) but Briere made his call - and a bit of a gamble that he could get away with it - and it backfired on him and the player told them to get stuffed as a result. It was almost entirely over money and he wanted it sooner, and probably much more importantly to become a FA sooner so he could get much more of it.

There were other contributing factors too I'm sure like the coach and how he interacted with players (lol), likely role (wanted to play center), and probably some other things too but contract/money turned a workable relationship into a situation where he stopped talking to the Flyers completely the moment that promised contract was not forthcoming. The timing is not a coincidence. That's him saying, lie to me yeah? Well then F you. We're done. I will never play here for you clowns.

But Keith Jones in interviews said he heard, while he was still a broadcaster, that Cutter didn’t want to sign.

Briere & Jones said in multiple interviews Cutter told them he wasn’t signing and he expressed that in the fall just months after the draft.

Maybe they’re lying.

 

[Random Forest]

The whole “they targeted a RH defenseman and only a RH defenseman” thing still doesn’t fly for me. And not even because I think they’re smarter than that, but because I’m just not convinced they would specifically target an undersized puck-moving defenseman.

They liked Drysdale because it was a relatively clean 1-for-1 swap that allowed them to save face by getting someone with similar pedigree and draft capital. Which isn’t good logic either, but worth pointing out, I think.

I maintain that their criteria were 1) center or defenseman, 2) under 23 y/o, 3) had similar draft pedigree, and 4) was available immediately (perhaps the most under-appreciated criteria that they handcuffed themselves to).

Drysdale (and Byram) were the only two available satisfying those conditions, and I don’t think Colorado wanted to pull the trigger before the deadline. Briere wanted to get it done as quickly as he possibly could, and was no doubt pleased that he was able to do it right after the WJC.

In hindsight, trading him at the draft for a top 10 pick would have been ideal (actually hindsight isn’t even necessary). They probably would have used it to take Dickinson if they couldn’t get into the top 5. You could have probably gotten Demidov by packaging him with #12 to get Anaheim’s 3rd overall and probably the 2nd that we got with Drysdale.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Cutter is an incredibly talented athlete. Selfish, narcissistic person.

If you don't want to play for a team, you tell them before they draft you 5th overall. You don't say you were "born to be a Flyer" and then tell the team you aren't signing a few months later.

I have no doubt he'll be a pretty big goal scorer in the NHL. Many on this board hated the pick. Not because they thought he wouldn't sign, but because they thought he wasn't that good. Seems like many of the the same people who didn't like the pick hated the trade. Ironic.

Michkov essentially forced his way here in the draft and then got out of his contract two years early to come here, so I don't want to read the implication that players don't want to play in Philly. Hathaway just extended at basically no raise. Erik Johnson extended for a mere $1M and raved about how much he liked it here.

Very bad examples imo. GH probably though it is was someone playing a prank on him when he got that call about an ext.

 

[Boxscore]

The idea the Flyers would have drafted Reinbacher ahead of Michkov is still hilarious to me.

They just passed on one of the elite D in the draft (who outscored Makar, Hughes, Fox, Werenski, etc.) for a center who scored 20 goals in the OHL during his draft year. I'm not against Luchanko as a player but I'm against them passing on a gift in Buium for him. Why not take the gift at 12 then try to parlay the 32 with the Avs 1st in 25 to move into the 20's to get Luchanko if you want him that bad?

If the Flyers legitimately had Luchanko rated ahead of Buium on their BPA draft board, their entire scouting department should be flushed. And, if they didn't, but passed on their BPA because they had "we need a centerman at all costs" tunnel vision, Briere needs to reevaluate the way he's building the club.

I've heard some say, "The Flyers didn't need D, they needed a center." I think that's foolish. The Flyers need the best talent they can get, regardless of position. They should be in "collecting talent" mode for the next two seasons, not "drafting for need."

Also, didn't the Ducks just parlay Drysdale into a top F prospect in Gauthier because their young D cupboard was stacked? Smart money is taking Buium then either developing into your 1D or watching him nuke the NCAA next season before trading him for a King's ransom far greater than Jett Luchanko.

It's like Briere can't think beyond the moment. This is puzzling after the way he and Jones described how they were going to methodically "build the right way" without taking shortcuts. Passing on elite talent is inexcusable.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

You cannot convince me that if the Flyers had to choose between Reinbacher and Michkov at the draft they still take Michkov. Every other move Briere has made points to them betting the big RHD before anything else.

He is the protégé of Charles Fletcher after all.

100% michkov was the runnerup prize..

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Spittin’ Chiclets made it seem like Gauthier’s camp didn’t like the power Tortorella wielded & had no faith in Briere as a rookie GM reeling that in. It was vague but I guess that could include the contract situation & then that summer where Tortorella forced all the guys he didn’t like out including Hayes which was another rumored point of contention.

Player source.

This was gone over pretty well in the PHLY broadcast from Charlie a while ago. I think "couple of months" is a bit of an exaggeration, what he reported was the following:

1) Cutter gets drafted
2) Both agree he's going to BC for at least the next year
3) Conversations started about signing Cutter and going pro prior to his sophomore season
4) Flyers were ready to sign him; CG indicated that he wanted to go back becuase BC sold him hard on going back to pay wtih Smith, Leonard, etc. and win a championship
5) Flyers left that conversation with the impression that "Sure, no problem, we're on board with whatever you want."
6) Gauthier left that conversation with "BC sold me hard, these guys didn't. Not sure if these guys really want me."
7) CG then goes to worlds and plays really well and was like "F this, I don't need to go back, I'm ready for the pros" and was deeply offended that the Flyers didn't try to convince him hard enough, and then asks to be traded.

It fits; I don't know if it's accurate, but it tracks well- putting in all sides together that Briere said they walked away positive from the Pro/college discussion - but CG clearly came out negative.

Where there's blame here on management is being out to lunch on the events of that conversation and maybe misreading the entire situation. That's fair criticism. It's also fair to say the reaction to that to go silent and avoid a professional organization is quite petty.

It tracks well to a management that was in flux after the firing of a GM being a bit in shambles and maybe not reading the situation and bungling it, and also to a self-involved petulant child who wanted to be worshipped.

I think both are true.

EDIT: I'll also add, this WJC group seems like that in general - arrogance because of the praise they got, etc. Leonard not signing, McGroarty - I'm wondering if they all talked about doing this crap. Who knows.

Management source.

Sometimes it really is that simple.

I also don’t think anyone drafted owes a team shit once they request a trade. They don’t have to tell you why. Then the team gets to make the choice of whether to catch feelings about it. I know which way I would choose.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Philly is a great place to play if youre a vet. Great area to raise a family, shorter travel, an org that takes care of you.

But if youre a top prospect who expresses a desire to sign and play for a team that deaperately needs talent and are told "hold your horses. You have a earn a spot in camp!"...thats a turn off.

If you know youre talented enough to be in the NHL... a team like the Flyers who is gonna put you through hell with demotions, benchings, scratches...and no evidence that their methods help develop players...i can see why hed not wanna be here.

Again...he handled it wrong, but I dont think his reasons for not wanting to be here werent valid.

I'm skeptical he handled it wrong, even. Our source for him handling it wrong is chiefly the Flyers. The team that has a freakout any time any player exercises any right they hold via the CBA, from negotiating to using their NTC to not playing through severe injury. Or if they do play through severe injury, they get publicly slammed for not being better.

The team has no credibility on this front. And the louder they yell that the player is at fault, the more I suspect they are and they know it. They doth protest too much. That media smear campaign was insane, including throwing Hayes out as a scapegoat knowing he wasn't popular with fans. Dishonesty through and through.

 

[Beef Invictus]

As was reported from what leaked from the Cutter camp; the fracture point was them telling him he would get a contract after the first NCAA season, and then going back on it and not offering it (different GM but still). He would be here if they gave him what he wanted (and was agreed to by Chuckles) but Briere made his call - and a bit of a gamble that he could get away with it - and it backfired on him and the player told them to get stuffed as a result. It was almost entirely over money and he wanted it sooner, and probably much more importantly to become a FA sooner so he could get much more of it.

There were other contributing factors too I'm sure like the coach and how he interacted with players (lol), likely role (wanted to play center), and probably some other things too but contract/money turned a workable relationship into a situation where he stopped talking to the Flyers completely the moment that promised contract was not forthcoming. The timing is not a coincidence. That's him saying, lie to me yeah? Well then F you. We're done. I will never play here for you clowns.

And the "different GM" thing doesn't work when it's the exact same management committee minus one dude. His special assistant was the one promoted. BS to the idea that it got lost in the weeds during an organizational transition. There was no transition. They were just pulling their usual garbage with talented prospects where they think contrived adversity is necessary to build character, and it exploded in their faces. And they are incapable of self-reflection.

 

[Beef Invictus]

But Keith Jones in interviews said he heard, while he was still a broadcaster, that Cutter didn’t want to sign.

Briere & Jones said in multiple interviews Cutter told them he wasn’t signing and he expressed that in the fall just months after the draft.

Maybe they’re lying.

Keith Jones openly admitted to lying to fans about a rebuild, and this is the guy you think can be trusted?

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

He’s never being traded.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

But Keith Jones in interviews said he heard, while he was still a broadcaster, that Cutter didn’t want to sign.

Briere & Jones said in multiple interviews Cutter told them he wasn’t signing and he expressed that in the fall just months after the draft.

Maybe they’re lying.

They never said that. Briere misspoke and then clarified that this all happened after he took over as GM in the spring.

Look, If you want to bury your head in the sand and blame CG and CG alone, that’s your right and there will be no convincing you, but the evidence points pretty strongly the other way.

Other than being named “Cutter”, there’s nothing in this kid’s history to suggest he’s a jerk. His teammates and coaches all love him and went out of their way to stick up for him when this went down. And even if he were a jerk, it’s still pretty much unheard of for a player to up and without reason decide he no longer wants to play for a franchise.

Everything about how the Flyers handled this right down to the carefully organized media blitz PR / smear campaign tells you this was likely the organization’s fault. Cutter had a promise they’d burn a year and let him turn pro when he wanted. He wanted to go last year, Briere said “ehhh no I don’t think you’re ready” and it fractured the relationship.

You can argue he should’ve given us another chance, but my response would be “WHY?!?” We’ve ruined so many promising prospects development. We have an asshole at head coach who loves to bench young players. We haven’t won a cup in 40 years. We have absolutely no reason to be arrogant. We should be thanking our lucky stars whenever a top prospect says he’s excited to be a flyer and we should be bending over backwards to keep top talent happy.

Thankfully, even if some fans are still ignorant, it seems like maybe Briere and co learned from this costly lesson. They signed Luchanko immediately, signed Barkey and Bonk, guaranteed Michkov’s people he’d be in the NHL all year.

And hopefully that’s how we do business going forward. There is no reason to play hardball with your talent. Way too much to lose and very little to be gained.

 

[PALE PWNR]

I just don't buy that michkov wasn't their target the whole time. He was linked to them endlessly in the weeks leading up to the draft, and had secret meetings conducted in Philly, while he was actively telling other clubs he wouldn't play for them.

 

[Boxscore]

Other than being named “Cutter”, there’s nothing in this kid’s history to suggest he’s a jerk.

His first name is William.

But, yeah, the "Cutter" thing is corny. And, usually with all of these "he said, she said" the truth is somewhere in the middle. I'm 100% convinced the Flyers didn't play this perfectly, the same way I think it was inexcusable that Gauthier wouldn't even (reportedly) meet with LeClair or Sharp to smooth things over.

 

[Boxscore]

I just don't buy that michkov wasn't their target the whole time. He was linked to them endlessly in the weeks leading up to the draft, and had secret meetings conducted in Philly, while he was actively telling other clubs he wouldn't play for them.

I believe Michkov was their target at 7 "if he was there" and they had some intel that he might be due to his reluctance to meet with other teams. I never bought the whole, "we have no idea what's going on with him" routine that Briere, to his credit, played off masterfully. I think the Flyers believed he might slip at 7 and they would pounce. That said, I 100% believe the rumors that they offered Gauthier to Montreal to draft Reinbacher, leaving guys like Michkov, Leonard, etc. on the board. I wouldn't be surprised if their thought was, "We take Reinbacher then are guaranteed one of Michkov/Leonard at 7."

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

His first name is William.

But, yeah, the "Cutter" thing is corny. And, usually with all of these "he said, she said" the truth is somewhere in the middle. I'm 100% convinced the Flyers didn't play this perfectly, the same way I think it was inexcusable that Gauthier wouldn't even (reportedly) meet with LeClair or Sharp to smooth things over.

That’s the thing though… Cutter didn’t really say. No statement from his side at all. Handled it incredibly professionally even when he was getting flyers fans threatening him and showing up at his games to harass him. Which kind of goes back to my “this isn’t a low character guy” statement. He seems like a perfectly fine young man.

I agree that he probably could’ve handled it differently, but if a downtrodden franchise lies to you, costs you $ and breaks your trust, what reason would you have for handling it differently? You don’t really have one. Best to get out of there. He didn’t want things to be smoothed over. He wanted a trade. And there was nothing to be gained from letting two paid spokesmen give him their pitch to try and smooth things over.

Even still, he went about it pretty professionally. Didn’t go public at all, despite his trade request not being acted on for 7-8 months.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Cutter’s got that “clutch gene” though. We can’t forget that.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

I believe Michkov was their target at 7 "if he was there" and they had some intel that he might be due to his reluctance to meet with other teams. I never bought the whole, "we have no idea what's going on with him" routine that Briere, to his credit, played off masterfully. I think the Flyers believed he might slip at 7 and they would pounce. That said, I 100% believe the rumors that they offered Gauthier to Montreal to draft Reinbacher, leaving guys like Michkov, Leonard, etc. on the board. I wouldn't be surprised if their thought was, "We take Reinbacher then are guaranteed one of Michkov/Leonard at 7."

If Montreal agreed to the trade, we would’ve had back to back picks, so the order doesn’t really matter. I think it’s obvious their #1 target was Michkov, whether we would’ve taken him at 6 or at 7. We met with him in secret, we explored the trade up, but ultimately didn’t need to.

They didn’t want Reinbacher instead of him, they wanted him in addition to Michkov. They were hellbent on coming away with a forward and a big defenseman, as evidenced by passing on Perreault for Bonk later in the 1st round.