Rumor: Things Not Left Unsaid 3 - Flyers Rumors and Media Mentions: Never Ending Circles

[flyersnorth]

TPTB allowed AV to trash out Gostisbehere and Jake. Now Torts wrecks Frost.
It looks like a MO for the Flyers is to allow the HC to drive players off of the roster instead of demanding that the HC bring the most out of a player. Winning franchises do not allow the HC this much latitude with roster make up. Only losers do that.

I mean, to be fair, they were right on Hayes, Provorov, and DeAngelo.

Those were the easy ones.

Are they right on Frost? Maybe, maybe not. I do agree that they definitely don't do things very stealthily or strategically when it comes to this - all three of the players I mentioned above were well-known to be on the outs.

When Frost is on, he can flash some serious skill and is a top of the lineup player. But if they can move him for something of equal or better value, then so be it.

It makes the team worse in the short term until there is a legitimate C replacement. That's a good thing for the longer term view of having a higher pick this year.

 

[ponder719]

When Frost is on, he can flash some serious skill and is a top of the lineup player. But if they can move him for something of equal or better value, then so be it.

This is the problem, though. How do you get equal or better value? Is it by making the player look like shit on the way out the door? By not giving him a chance to display the skills that would make him appealing to other teams? By slagging him off at every goddamned opportunity?

Or do you let him showcase what he can do, talk him up publicly, and draw people's attention to the ways he can help other teams?

Christ, these idiots haven't the first clue how to market an asset. That is the ONE thing corporate ownership should be able to instill in them, and they're utterly hopeless at it.

 

[FLYguy3911]

They turned one of the better prospects in hockey according to many into Jamie Drysdale. They are taking a bath in any trade.

 

[flyersnorth]

This is the problem, though. How do you get equal or better value? Is it by making the player look like shit on the way out the door? By not giving him a chance to display the skills that would make him appealing to other teams? By slagging him off at every goddamned opportunity?

Or do you let him showcase what he can do, talk him up publicly, and draw people's attention to the ways he can help other teams?

Christ, these idiots haven't the first clue how to market an asset. That is the ONE thing corporate ownership should be able to instill in them, and they're utterly hopeless at it.

I think Briere and Jones are probably fine at marketing and doing things with tact and on the down low (the Gauthier situation, Fedotov, Michkov, etc).

Tortorella just can't help himself though. Love him or hate him, he is a loudmouth that can often sabotage even his own best interests.

I wonder how much it affects other GMs' perception of Frost. I'm sure many of them can see past the noise and recognize devalued assets.

 

[deadhead]

This is the problem, though. How do you get equal or better value? Is it by making the player look like shit on the way out the door? By not giving him a chance to display the skills that would make him appealing to other teams? By slagging him off at every goddamned opportunity?

Or do you let him showcase what he can do, talk him up publicly, and draw people's attention to the ways he can help other teams?

Christ, these idiots haven't the first clue how to market an asset. That is the ONE thing corporate ownership should be able to instill in them, and they're utterly hopeless at it.

He's had the chances, he's been mostly a top six center the last three years.
They tried to showcase him, give him Tippett, Michkov and TK to start the season.

Scouts can see what we can see (those willing to look), Frost just isn't that good.
At this point in his career he should be taking a step forward, not a step back.

You can put lipstick on a pig . . .

 

[ponder719]

You can put lipstick on a pig . . .

Deady, I appreciate your commitment to the bit, but let's not compare shades of lipstick and quantities of pig, here.

How's Attard been doing?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

He's had the chances, he's been mostly a top six center the last three years.
They tried to showcase him, give him Tippett, Michkov and TK to start the season.

Scouts can see what we can see (those willing to look), Frost just isn't that good.
At this point in his career he should be taking a step forward, not a step back.

You can put lipstick on a pig . . .

So Frost both isn’t healthy to you this year because he’s not playing well and also his last 3 years haven’t been good. Feels like it can’t be both.

Or we can say we’re making that determination based on just this year and then have the same discussion we have 7 times a season — Braun figured out how to play with Hagg, Twarynski gave them no choice, and so on. We have got to stop making player evaluations by prioritizing narrow bands over careers.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I'm sure many of them can see past the noise and recognize devalued assets.

I would guess a handful at best actually look at these things as opportunities rather than tough decisions best left for someone else. NFL GMs are shockingly incompetent by wholesale. Now imagine what you get in a much lower profile and wealthy league.

 

[ponder719]

I would guess a handful at best actually look at these things as opportunities rather than tough decisions best left for someone else. NFL GMs are shockingly incompetent by wholesale. Now imagine what you get in a much lower profile and wealthy league.

To paraphrase a much wiser man than I, consider the average GM. Half of them are dumber than that.

 

[deadhead]

So Frost both isn’t healthy to you this year because he’s not playing well and also his last 3 years haven’t been good. Feels like it can’t be both.

Or we can say we’re making that determination based on just this year and then have the same discussion we have 7 times a season — Braun figured out how to play with Hagg, Twarynski gave them no choice, and so on. We have got to stop making player evaluations by prioritizing narrow bands over careers.

I don't think Frost is as bad as he's looked this season, I think there's some health issue, but Torts was right to bench him, he's been awful.

I would be in no rush to move him, but I also wouldn't consider him a core player going forward.
More like someone you work into the lineup in a week or two and see if he responds.

The key will be his next contract, if he wants real money, nice knowing ya.
What looked like a floor two years ago is now looking more like a ceiling.

He's a 3C, flashed some 2C skills, but part of being a top six player is consistency, even when you don't score, you have to show up night after night. At some point "you are what you are."

Players plateau at different points in their careers, a few "find Jesus" and make a jump in their late 20s (JT Miller) but they're rare. Most players who bounce back are coming off injury (Giroux in his 20s).

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I don't think Frost is as bad as he's looked this season, I think there's some health issue, but Torts was right to bench him, he's been awful.

I would be in no rush to move him, but I also wouldn't consider him a core player going forward.
More like someone you work into the lineup in a week or two and see if he responds.

The key will be his next contract, if he wants real money, nice knowing ya.
What looked like a floor two years ago is now looking more like a ceiling.

He's a 3C, flashed some 2C skills, but part of being a top six player is consistency, even when you don't score, you have to show up night after night. At some point "you are what you are."

Players plateau at different points in their careers, a few "find Jesus" and make a jump in their late 20s (JT Miller) but they're rare. Most players who bounce back are coming off injury (Giroux in his 20s).

Only 1st liners are consistent. That's what makes them 1st liners.

 

[deadhead]

I would guess a handful at best actually look at these things as opportunities rather than tough decisions best left for someone else. NFL GMs are shockingly incompetent by wholesale. Now imagine what you get in a much lower profile and wealthy league.

Trading for a "devalued player" is buying an option.
Value depends on the price of the option, the risk involved and the ceiling of the player.
Most "devalued players" are devalued for a reason. More information becomes available.

The same people writing off Drysdale after a few weeks are making every excuse for Frost.
As Newhook shows, sometimes a promising prospect never gets beyond the "promise."

 

[ponder719]

Only 1st liners are consistent. That's what makes them 1st liners.

I dunno, Cates is as consistent as they come. Consistently good at defense, consistently a non-entity on offense.

 

[deadhead]

Only 1st liners are consistent. That's what makes them 1st liners.

Not true. A lot of 2nd liners are consistent, but consistently not as good as first liners.
Brayden Schenn has been pretty consistent throughout his career, for example.

 

[Lord Defect]

You’re the owner of a store and your lead sales clerk has a new product to sell.
The sales clerk should do everything in his power to promote the product and speak of its positives and potential.
If the clerk went around with each sale and said how shit the product is at every available opportunity, and had to sell the product at a massive discount just to move it.
How long would you keep them employed?

 

[CerpinTaxt]

I think Briere and Jones are probably fine at marketing and doing things with tact and on the down low (the Gauthier situation, Fedotov, Michkov, etc).

Tortorella just can't help himself though. Love him or hate him, he is a loudmouth that can often sabotage even his own best interests.

I wonder how much it affects other GMs' perception of Frost. I'm sure many of them can see past the noise and recognize devalued assets.

Definitely on the strongly dislike him side of the fence. So glad to know he's not only dragging down the on ice product but also the off ice product

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Not true. A lot of 2nd liners are consistent, but consistently not as good as first liners.
Brayden Schenn has been pretty consistent throughout his career, for example.

First of all, there’s no such thing as a 2nd liner to me anymore. I know we’ve had this discussion many times and accept that we disagree, but I would like it on the record that I’m not agreeing to this delineation. All of my posts are in the context of 1st/M6/4th. Frost is a Middle 6 guy to me.

I’m not talking about year to year consistency. The framing around what I said was that we shouldn’t be making broad player evaluations based on ~20 games when we have years of data. Within seasons, the players that aren’t prone to cold streaks or scoring droughts or whatever other line you think is relevant are the ones that end up as 1st liners when you compile with hindsight.

The same people writing off Drysdale after a few weeks are making every excuse for Frost.
As Newhook shows, sometimes a promising prospect never gets beyond the "promise."

A few weeks?! Jamie Drysdale is on Year 5 of being a terrible NHL player who also can’t stay healthy. I feel like I’m in a Doctor Who episode where time is bendy in one guy’s house.

 

[freakydallas13]

I don't think Frost is as bad as he's looked this season, I think there's some health issue, but Torts was right to bench him, he's been awful.

Tippet has looked like the worst player on the ice some nights, does he deserve to be scratched too?

 

[deadhead]

First of all, there’s no such thing as a 2nd liner to me anymore. I know we’ve had this discussion many times and accept that we disagree, but I would like it on the record that I’m not agreeing to this delineation. All of my posts are in the context of 1st/M6/4th. Frost is a Middle 6 guy to me.

I’m not talking about year to year consistency. The framing around what I said was that we shouldn’t be making broad player evaluations based on ~20 games when we have years of data. Within seasons, the players that aren’t prone to cold streaks or scoring droughts or whatever other line you think is relevant are the ones that end up as 1st liners when you compile with hindsight.



A few weeks?! Jamie Drysdale is on Year 5 of being a terrible NHL player who also can’t stay healthy. I feel like I’m in a Doctor Who episode where time is bendy in one guy’s house.

Drysdale is also 22, and was badly handled.
Frost is 25 and started the last two seasons and was given every chance to succeed.

Now I wouldn't bet on either player going forward, but I'd give them both a chance this season (and next season, if not them, others in similar situations) to prove me wrong.

I don't go with the middle six because it's way too wide a range, from the marginal 3C scoring in the low 20s to the good 2C scoring in the 40s (at ES, PP points are too dependent on time with a good PP1 unit).

I'll stick with top 2 lines, bottom six, and end of roster (guys who are basically replacement value and fungible). Value for bottom six guys often comes from roles, PK, PP2, elite forechecker, sheltered scorer, etc.

 

[deadhead]

Tippet has looked like the worst player on the ice some nights, does he deserve to be scratched too?

Tippett brings it every night, sometimes for the wrong jersey, but like TK, you have to accept that as part of the package. He's 3rd among forwards in xGF%.
He's excelled the last few games since he's been with Couts and TK.

 

[freakydallas13]

Tippett brings it every night, sometimes for the wrong jersey, but like TK, you have to accept that as part of the package. He's 3rd among forwards in xGF%.
He's excelled the last few games since he's been with Couts and TK.

So to summarize: Tippet plays awful you have to keep him in the lineup, Frost plays awful you have to scratch him. Got it.

Tell me again how Torts is biased against Frost.

 

[CerpinTaxt]

Tippet has looked like the worst player on the ice some nights, does he deserve to be scratched too?

Tippet doesn't even play the right way. He's just big, skates fast, and shoots

 

[deadhead]

Tippet doesn't even play the right way. He's just big, skates fast, and shoots

Well, TK is small, skates fast and shoots.

Both have high motors and make things happen, and you rarely watch a game where they don't stand out, for good and evil.

I've seen numerous games where I didn't even know Frost played until I checked the scorecard.

Michkov also can be invisible at times, but he's more like a snake the grass, he'll be hidden for a while, then strikes with deadly effect. He's more center dependent than TK or Tippett, his one "flaw" is lack of speed to rush end to end.

 

[ybnvs]

Edit: Wrong thread

 

[FlyerNutter]

I can go to a construction site to watch a bunch of guys in orange work hard too.

If that’s what we are after.