Rumor: Things Not Left Unsaid 3 - Flyers Rumors and Media Mentions: Never Ending Circles

GKJ

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Feb 27, 2002
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That’s not leverage at all. Unless you’re a weak and inexperienced front office (like the Flyers)

The Jets situation with McGroarty leaked. Do you see the Jets panicking and rushing into a bad trade? Nope.

The dispute was allegedly about money. Who in their right mind thinks a kid who’s mad about a money situation is going to wait another 2 years and cost himself more $ just out of spite?

The Flyers had a choice to either live in the uncomfortableness ala another Philly GM Daryl Morey and his standoff with Ben Simmons or to make this weak trade. They chose the weak trade.

That’s super disappointing. The only way it would be more disappointing is if they actually thought extremely highly of Drysdale and thought this was close to fair value.

McGroarty, like Cutter, wanted to be inserted into the NHL and burn the first year. The Jets were not doing that, so there wasn’t a downside to returning to college.

McGroarty, also like Cutter, is/was playing at a big hockey school. I don’t know what their NIL deals are like, but I bet it’s worth it to stay at Michigan than play in the AHL. He’s a kid and college is way more fun.

McGroarty situation is exactly the same one the Flyers would be dealing with had they not moved when they did on Cutter. If we knew Cutter wasn’t signing, and the whole draft passed without having made a move, we’d be crucifying Briere. Some are doing that anyways, and that’s fine. The pick we have is next year’s and obviously they like that draft better. But they did get part of a season of Drysdale being in the system.

If there’s a common trend with the trades Briere has made, it’s that he do anything until he thinks he has to. It was in their messaging that they were going to lose the leverage if they didn’t act when they did.
 
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TheKingPin

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What "leverage" did the Flyers have?

Did the Blackhawks have "leverage" over Kevin Hayes? Did the Flames have "leverage" over Adam Fox?

They become unrestricted free agents in 4 years. That's leverage.

Hell, ignoring the college angle, did the Nordiques have "leverage" over Eric Lindros?

If a player tells a team he refuses to play for them, they're going to trade him.

You think "if we waited it out then he would have possibly just signed the deal"?

Great game of chicken to play when your job is on the line.

Optics. You can wait it out if you like. But it won’t be a good thing for your career unless you really feel like you are in a bad spot to start.

I think Cutter is now stuck on the Ducks. If he walks asap from the ducks I think we have a diva on our hands.

His leverage is that he refuses to sign and just goes to UFA in 2 years and decides to deliberately f*** the Flyers over. The reason they were apt to move him when they did was because they didn’t want to get out. If he doesn’t sign before the end of this season, then everyone knows.

The 2nd wasn’t insurance, they needed that as part of the deal. Drysdale wasn’t worth a 1st on his own in the moment, but he is if this works.

It’s an understandable rationale to move him when they did. But to move him for what they did is the problem. There are many cases when the lower of the negotiating power backs off and everything ends up as it should. Drysdale is a sinking asset.

From the Flyers perspective, I believe the 2nd was insurance. They liked a healthy Drysdale as a 1:1 to Cutter.
 

FromOyVey2Matvei

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I mean, who is LeClair to a kid with zero memory of his career? Just a stranger. It's not like a top-10 draft pick will be lacking for NHL figures in his life. His dad saw the NHL. The mystique isn't gonna be there like it might be for us
It’s not even about Cutter not knowing LeClair is a legend or seeing him play. It’s about the intentions behind LeClair’s visit and who was paying LeClair to do so.

I love boxing and George Foreman is a boxing legend. But I still changed the channel every f**king time one of his infomercials trying to sell me a grill came on.

Refusing to hear a sales pitch from a paid spokesman (regardless of who that spokesman is) is not disrespectful.
 
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JojoTheWhale

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In the histrionics of arguing the nitty gritty of the Gauthier timeline, I suspect there’s a large subsection of us who don’t give a damn about any of this and and are more worried that their overrating of Drysdale. Yes, as a player, but most importantly as an asset. And that the subsequent reasoning for the Bonk selection combined with passing on Buium is fitting a concerning pattern.

We’re all going to disagree with individual evaluations now and then. Evaluate the process.
 

GKJ

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Feb 27, 2002
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Optics. You can wait it out if you like. But it won’t be a good thing for your career unless you really feel like you are in a bad spot to start.

I think Cutter is now stuck on the Ducks. If he walks asap from the ducks I think we have a diva on our hands.



It’s an understandable rationale to move him when they did. But to move him for what they did is the problem. There are many cases when the lower of the negotiating power backs off and everything ends up as it should. Drysdale is a sinking asset.

From the Flyers perspective, I believe the 2nd was insurance. They liked a healthy Drysdale as a 1:1 to Cutter.

The 2nd was always there. They were never getting less than a high 2nd, so to get him, it was a race to get the best player or asset to go with it, and they came out with a 21-year old defenseman who was himself a top 10 pick, not necessarily happy, whose risk factor is whether or not he can stay on the ice. But Drysdale wasn’t worth not having the draft pick.
 

Rich Nixon

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I think my main wonder in the whole Gauthier situation is why the franchise handled it through the press the way it did and what the fallout from that might be. It's one thing to find yourself in a business dispute with a top prospect and be forced to make a trade. It's a whole other thing to send your entire management one by one onto the broadcast that night to vaguely shit on the kid, to the point that he reported receiving death threats and there are now people worked up enough about it that they're circling a random game against the f***ing Anaheim Ducks on the calendar.

The only defector from that behavior was Lindros, who basically said "they should've just said nothing or that they really coveted Drysdale." I can't imagine prospects and other players around the league looked at that situation and went "yeah that's fine" or "wow now I really want to go there!"
 
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Beef Invictus

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According to Elliotte Friedman, I believe, the Flyers inquired about Byram in a Gauthier trade but Colorado wasn't interested.

And I don't know if this is related, but it was also reported that there were teams who wanted no part of Gauthier because they were worried about his signability.


Did they have their heads up their asses when they flew Michkov in for a secret meeting, drafted him at 7, and brought him over to the NHL 2 years before his KHL contract expired?

It was reported by Hartnell. The Flyers made the claim that nobody wanted him. They always blame the player for their own failures. It's a bad idea to believe them uncritically. We know they lie to fans as part of their PR strategy because that dope Jones admitted it.
 

Hollywood Cannon

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It was reported by Hartnell. The Flyers made the claim that nobody wanted him. They always blame the player for their own failures. It's a bad idea to believe them uncritically. We know they lie to fans as part of their PR strategy because that dope Jones admitted it.
Was that the interview where Hartnell called Gauthiers' agent "Overcharge or whatever?"
 
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Beef Invictus

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I personally think Michkov was coming over no matter what, but that's neither here nor there, because blind squirrel and all, and this wasn't just any nut, this was the biggest damned nut this stupid blind squirrel of a management team could have possibly stumbled on.

One great lucky thing - that they seem to have done everything right for, to their credit - doesn't mean they don't have their heads up their asses. We have mountains of evidence that this organization's approach is wrongheaded. They've made one spectacularly bad decision after another, and you by the way have supported nearly all of them with the same strident contrarianism that you're displaying here. At what point in time do you stop and think that maybe the reason that everything keeps going to shit is because they're wrong and by extension you're wrong?

The fact that we are meant to laud them for not blowing perhaps the most obvious draft pick in team history says a lot. The fact that blowing it seems very possible they could have and therefore its praiseworthy they didn't, says even more.
 
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Rebels57

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Gauthier might hit 25 next season playing with Leo Carlsson. He has 40-goal upside, let's not kid ourselves, lol. That said, screw him.


Agree with all of this. But I think passing on Perreault and even Buium more so will haunt Briere for a decade. It will be Hextall's "passing on Makar for Patrick" x10.

He's gonna need to learn to shoot from below the top of the circles first. Go watch his NCAA highlights. The majority of his goals are not beating NHL goalies.
 

Ghosts Beer

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Feb 10, 2014
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Remember what I said about you burying your head in the sand? Yeah… pretty much that’s what’s playing out here.

This was the biggest Flyers story of the season. It was covered by 20+ local outlets/writers, 15+ national outlets/writers. I think it speaks volumes that not a single one of them cites the timeline you believe you heard in some mythical Briere/Jones interview. I think it also speaks volumes that everyone universally agrees that Cutter and his agent had a call with the Flyers in March 2023 (both still speaking to the org) and then his agent told them he was cutting off contact and refusing to sign in May of 2023.

Could there have been issues festering before that? Of course. But it’s pretty clear when things escalated.

I’m not going to go listen to hours of Briere and Jones interviews to try and prove your “grassy knoll” theory wrong though, so enjoy burying your head in that knoll. The Flyers FO did nothing wrong. They never do anything wrong. Just terrible luck that they drafted an awful person who decided to ghost them for sport.
You're the one who claimed, "Literally everything that came out about this indicates that there were no issues between the team and Cutter as of when his college season ended in 2023."

And that's not true. Because the current GM and current President both said in separate interviews that they first became aware of Cutter's reticence to sign just a few months after the draft.

You want to act like *I'm* the conspiracy theorist? That I'm the one "burying my head in the sand"? Fine. You're the one implying that I made this up, or that both Jones and Briere are lying. The interviews are out there.

You don't have to believe Jones & Briere. But don't tell me they didn't both say it, and they're the ones with the closest knowledge.
 

Rebels57

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It's hypothetical, but if the Flyers still held Gauthier's rights now I bet there would more than a few teams looking to trade for him, and they would be offering better than a small, injury prone RHD. I highly doubt Gauthier would want to wait till age 22 to start his NHL career. The last NCAA guy to do that was Wheeler in 2008, and there's a lot more money at stake now.

Just like with the Anaheim trade, any team trading for him would be able to know in advance that he would sign there. I think a contending team like the Rangers would have loved to add a 20 year old top forward prospect on a 3-year ELC.

Exactly this. I never understood the line of thinking that "they didn't want it to get out and lower his value." It's just as likely that it could have caused a bidding war. Everyone knowing an asset is available doesn't necessarily lower it's value, unless that player has a restrictive NTC or NMC.

I think what is very likely is that the old codger Bob Murray convinced them that Drysdale was worth it, and they didn't look much beyond that and the 5th pick with Montreal. It was an impetuous decision by two novice decision-makers.
 

Beef Invictus

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In the histrionics of arguing the nitty gritty of the Gauthier timeline, I suspect there’s a large subsection of us who don’t give a damn about any of this and and are more worried that their overrating of Drysdale. Yes, as a player, but most importantly as an asset. And that the subsequent reasoning for the Bonk selection combined with passing on Buium is fitting a concerning pattern.

We’re all going to disagree with individual evaluations now and then. Evaluate the process.

You can ignore all the details and focus on the big picture alone.

You are left with: The Flyers fumbled what they considered a top prospect (even if you want to lay all blame with Cutter, what we know of the Flyers' handling is still bad), and the Flyers exchanged him for a return that was extremely questionable at the time it went down. Even without adding all the other context like their proclivity for need/fit over quality, people involved, optics, past dishonesty, etc, those hard facts really suck and are not good.

On the positive side, the hard facts don't suck more. Things can be worse! They haven't hired Dallas Eakins yet for example.
 

Beef Invictus

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He's gonna need to learn to shoot from below the top of the circles first. Go watch his NCAA highlights. The majority of his goals are not beating NHL goalies.

This is where I've been on him. Almost no creative playmaking and orbital wristers that are hard, but distant. This is where my "let me see actual pro games" doctrine comes in though. What he's doing now says even getting 20-25 goals will be a challenge. But is he doing what he's doing because it works, and he has no reason to change? What happens when he has to evolve? Does he? If he does, he can score a lot.
 

flyersnorth

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I have no interest in joining the debate but I did come across a few articles and timeline elements that may be helpful.





Elliotte Friedman releases an article​

Sportsnet insider Elliotte Friedman added another layer to this saga when he released an article that was meant to clarify what happened. It really didn’t explain much besides something happening after the 2023 World Championship in March being a turning point. Friedman explains how many of his sources believe it was a cap problem with his entry-level contract and that he wanted to turn pro and not wait until the cap situation figured itself out. Weird that this could’ve happened from something so small, maybe there was more?

Gauthier speaks​

Cutter Gauthier finally talks after two days of silence. Gauthier sat down on the Ducks’ Light the Lamp podcast and opened up (not really) about the situation. He just continued to say how it was a personal private matter and gave no further explanation. Gauthier did however dump a bucket of water on the Kevin Hayes fire. He said that Hayes was not involved in the decision at all.

Gauthier accidentally backs himself into a corner​

The whole time this situation has been in the spotlight, Gauthier kept reiterating that it was a private, personal, family matter.

In an article written by Derek Lee of The Sporting Tribune, Gauthier was quoted as saying this:

“It wasn’t one specific reason why I asked for a trade. It was multiple, re-occurring issues that I’d seen over the past year and a half, two years of being under the Flyers organization. [Everything] kind of hit me all at once, thinking ‘I can’t move forward with this’ and ‘I really need to step up for myself and see what’s best for my future’ and that’s what I did.”

A telling quote. A completely different tone than his previous quotes on the matter.

Gauthier also said that there could be one day where he tells the details of what happened but for right now he kind of want to keep it to a private matter. As we already know earlier in the week, Elliotte Friedman reported Gauthier wanted to turn pro, but Gauthier stated he did not want to communicate with the franchise because of these “reoccurring issues.” A weird corner to back yourself into where there seems to be no way out.

One of the biggest surprises was when Brière said that they thought he was NHL ready after the World Championship. Many reports said the Flyers asked him to return to Boston College for another season, but this was not the case. Something apparently happened that Brière doesn’t know about because the last he had heard was he wanted to still be a Flyer but wanted to go back to Boston College another year. He also once again reiterated that he completely cut off the Flyers and he and his family wouldn’t even communicate with the Flyers about the team’s future vision.


According to several sources, whatever happened pre-dates May 11, when Keith Jones was hired and Daniel Briere officially became general manager. The last time they met face-to-face with Gauthier was on a Zoom call right after the World Championships, which concluded May 28. At that time, the Flyers were hoping Gauthier was ready to sign, only to be floored by hearing he would never do so.

Several sources believe that whatever discussions took place after March 11 — when Boston College’s 2022-23 season ended with a loss in the Hockey East quarterfinals — threw an unintentional wrench into this relationship.


Flyers GM Daniel Briere said Gauthier was enthusiastic about joining the Flyers ahead of the 2022 draft but informed the team in the spring of 2023, after returning from the world championships, that he would not be signing with them.

Briere said at the time the Flyers chose to wait and see if Gauthier would reconsider. But after he and Jones travelled to Sweden to meet with Gauthier during the world juniors, and that meeting was declined, the Flyers decided to close the deal with Anaheim.

“It was a long time coming,” Briere said. “It’s been going on for a while. We tried to give him space. We tried to get in touch with him many times. He would not communicate ... so at some point, we had to make a decision, and we thought with what happened just a few days ago, this was probably the time to get the highest value.”
 

Curufinwe

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McGroarty, like Cutter, wanted to be inserted into the NHL and burn the first year. The Jets were not doing that, so there wasn’t a downside to returning to college.

McGroarty, also like Cutter, is/was playing at a big hockey school. I don’t know what their NIL deals are like, but I bet it’s worth it to stay at Michigan than play in the AHL.
I heard the only groupies for the Manitoba Moose are actual moose. :moose:
 

thedjpd

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or a chance within his...
I have no interest in joining the debate but I did come across a few articles and timeline elements that may be helpful.





Elliotte Friedman releases an article​

Sportsnet insider Elliotte Friedman added another layer to this saga when he released an article that was meant to clarify what happened. It really didn’t explain much besides something happening after the 2023 World Championship in March being a turning point. Friedman explains how many of his sources believe it was a cap problem with his entry-level contract and that he wanted to turn pro and not wait until the cap situation figured itself out. Weird that this could’ve happened from something so small, maybe there was more?

Gauthier speaks​

Cutter Gauthier finally talks after two days of silence. Gauthier sat down on the Ducks’ Light the Lamp podcast and opened up (not really) about the situation. He just continued to say how it was a personal private matter and gave no further explanation. Gauthier did however dump a bucket of water on the Kevin Hayes fire. He said that Hayes was not involved in the decision at all.

Gauthier accidentally backs himself into a corner​

The whole time this situation has been in the spotlight, Gauthier kept reiterating that it was a private, personal, family matter.

In an article written by Derek Lee of The Sporting Tribune, Gauthier was quoted as saying this:

“It wasn’t one specific reason why I asked for a trade. It was multiple, re-occurring issues that I’d seen over the past year and a half, two years of being under the Flyers organization. [Everything] kind of hit me all at once, thinking ‘I can’t move forward with this’ and ‘I really need to step up for myself and see what’s best for my future’ and that’s what I did.”

A telling quote. A completely different tone than his previous quotes on the matter.

Gauthier also said that there could be one day where he tells the details of what happened but for right now he kind of want to keep it to a private matter. As we already know earlier in the week, Elliotte Friedman reported Gauthier wanted to turn pro, but Gauthier stated he did not want to communicate with the franchise because of these “reoccurring issues.” A weird corner to back yourself into where there seems to be no way out.

One of the biggest surprises was when Brière said that they thought he was NHL ready after the World Championship. Many reports said the Flyers asked him to return to Boston College for another season, but this was not the case. Something apparently happened that Brière doesn’t know about because the last he had heard was he wanted to still be a Flyer but wanted to go back to Boston College another year. He also once again reiterated that he completely cut off the Flyers and he and his family wouldn’t even communicate with the Flyers about the team’s future vision.


According to several sources, whatever happened pre-dates May 11, when Keith Jones was hired and Daniel Briere officially became general manager. The last time they met face-to-face with Gauthier was on a Zoom call right after the World Championships, which concluded May 28. At that time, the Flyers were hoping Gauthier was ready to sign, only to be floored by hearing he would never do so.

Several sources believe that whatever discussions took place after March 11 — when Boston College’s 2022-23 season ended with a loss in the Hockey East quarterfinals — threw an unintentional wrench into this relationship.


Flyers GM Daniel Briere said Gauthier was enthusiastic about joining the Flyers ahead of the 2022 draft but informed the team in the spring of 2023, after returning from the world championships, that he would not be signing with them.

Briere said at the time the Flyers chose to wait and see if Gauthier would reconsider. But after he and Jones travelled to Sweden to meet with Gauthier during the world juniors, and that meeting was declined, the Flyers decided to close the deal with Anaheim.

“It was a long time coming,” Briere said. “It’s been going on for a while. We tried to give him space. We tried to get in touch with him many times. He would not communicate ... so at some point, we had to make a decision, and we thought with what happened just a few days ago, this was probably the time to get the highest value.”
Thank you for this.

I know people like to shit on management for being "cheap" or not "ready to bring him on" but this article directly indicates that:

1) Gauthier chose to go back to BC
2) Flyers were ready to sign him for him to go pro

Has nothing to do with money, bonus overages, burning contract time, etc.

Obviously, there's more, but this has never felt like the Flyers made some colossal mistake - it's entirely feasible they did make mistakes, but to receive such an adverse reaction seems disproportionate.

Is it more likley that Gauthier just changed his mind, and decided he didn't want to play here? Yes. And that's actually fine. It's the process that folks have an issue with; not the decision.
 

Beef Invictus

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Thank you for this.

I know people like to shit on management for being "cheap" or not "ready to bring him on" but this article directly indicates that:

1) Gauthier chose to go back to BC
2) Flyers were ready to sign him for him to go pro

Has nothing to do with money, bonus overages, burning contract time, etc.

Obviously, there's more, but this has never felt like the Flyers made some colossal mistake - it's entirely feasible they did make mistakes, but to receive such an adverse reaction seems out of touch.

Kinda leaving out that the entire thing starts with a refusal to sign him after assuring they would. Everything follows is a result of that Flyers mismanagement, and mismanagement elsewhere that a player who wants to maximize earnings should be pretty afraid of.
 

Beef Invictus

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If the Flyers were ready to sign him, how is that a refusal to sign him?

This claim is made by the Flyers. The people who lie all the time about everything. Maybe they got ready to sign him suddenly after breaking his trust by going back on prior promises and he decided it's time to opt out. That's what they claim. The same people who orchestrated a massive PR campaign that they later admitted was a huge elaborate lie.

I ask again. Why are people believing anything this team has to say? They have less credibility than ever at this point. That they felt the need to run a media campaign blaming Gauthier and for some reason Hayes casts yet more doubt on their claims; they had their scapegoat crusade all planned and ready to roll immediately. The more this team blusters, the more they are lying. That's held true for years on end.
 
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Ghosts Beer

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This is where I've been on him. Almost no creative playmaking and orbital wristers that are hard, but distant. This is where my "let me see actual pro games" doctrine comes in though. What he's doing now says even getting 20-25 goals will be a challenge. But is he doing what he's doing because it works, and he has no reason to change? What happens when he has to evolve? Does he? If he does, he can score a lot.
So you say you need to "let me see actual pro games" to evaluate Cutter, because you are skeptical of his game and how it translates to the NHL. Yet you also claim it's "proven correct" that the Flyers made a mistake in trading Cutter for Drysdale and a 2nd. Infallible logic.
 
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Beef Invictus

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So you say you need to "let me see actual pro games" to evaluate Cutter, because you are skeptical of his game and how it translates to the NHL. Yet you also claim it's "proven correct" that the Flyers made a mistake in trading Cutter for Drysdale and a 2nd. Infallible logic.

Yes. Because Drysdale is confirmed to suck, he's confirmed to never be healthy, and Gauthier has more potential upside. This is easy stuff. The mystery box with potential to be a jackpot is better than the known leaky bucket of slop with a handle that breaks. He actually has pro games. Well, when he isn't missing them all because he's never available.

I don't understand what is hard to grasp about that. Another of your failed "gotchas"
 

Curufinwe

Registered User
Feb 28, 2013
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Thank you for this.

I know people like to shit on management for being "cheap" or not "ready to bring him on" but this article directly indicates that:

1) Gauthier chose to go back to BC
2) Flyers were ready to sign him for him to go pro
They were not ready to sign him in March 2023 when he could have burned the first year of his ELC by playing 10 games. They were ready after the World Champs when he would have been signing an ELC that started with the 23-24 season.

Too little, too late.
 

FromOyVey2Matvei

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McGroarty, like Cutter, wanted to be inserted into the NHL and burn the first year. The Jets were not doing that, so there wasn’t a downside to returning to college.

McGroarty, also like Cutter, is/was playing at a big hockey school. I don’t know what their NIL deals are like, but I bet it’s worth it to stay at Michigan than play in the AHL. He’s a kid and college is way more fun.

McGroarty situation is exactly the same one the Flyers would be dealing with had they not moved when they did on Cutter. If we knew Cutter wasn’t signing, and the whole draft passed without having made a move, we’d be crucifying Briere. Some are doing that anyways, and that’s fine. The pick we have is next year’s and obviously they like that draft better. But they did get part of a season of Drysdale being in the system.

If there’s a common trend with the trades Briere has made, it’s that he do anything until he thinks he has to. It was in their messaging that they were going to lose the leverage if they didn’t act when they did.
Regarding NIL, I think top players like Cutter or McGroarty probably make a little more than the $70k they’d make in the minors, but significantly less than the $925k they’d make in the NHL. Which again makes their threat of not signing fairly hollow. If either of those guys is even a Kevin Hayes level player, you’re easily losing out on 5-10MM (likely more). Look at what Byfield ends up signing for this summer now that his ELC is done.

I also don’t buy for a second that we would’ve lost trade leverage when this went public. The draft would’ve opened up so many more opportunities, especially with the lack of high end center prospects. Cutter is easily a better prospect than Sennecke. Not really close.

The thing the Flyers were petrified of (and the reason they forced a bad trade) was the news of their inability to sign Cutter hanging over the franchise for months and ruining their precious culture and destroying all the hard work they did getting the authentics back on board and excited about the team.

A better management team would’ve known to ignore public sentiment. Fans are fickle and all it takes is one exciting move to get most back on board (see sixers fans when we got Harden, see Sixers fans when we got Paul George… Spike Eskin is calling Morey “better than Roseman” as of yesterday). Even if CG was still unsigned and no resolution was in sight, the majority of flyers fans would’ve been back on board and hype the second the Michkov news broke this summer.

Unfortunately it seems like the Flyers really believe culture is king. And that will likely be their downfall.
 

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