There is nothing wrong with Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares.

[theanomaly]

honestly, only nylander has earned the right to stick around, the way i see it. i feel for you guys.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I get a chuckle every time I see discussions about Canadian players losing over half their take home pay to taxes, as though they don't have high paid tax accountants who know how to minimize the tax losses through various means.

 

[Bgav]

I get a chuckle every time I see discussions about Canadian players losing over half their take home pay to taxes, as though they don't have high paid tax accountants who know how to minimize the tax losses through various means.

and they get paid more in sponsorships here i bet

 

[Oilslick941611]

Yea, that's how much they net. Marner will net 2 million more in Florida. I did the entire gross. You're agreeing with me here.

Roughly

The players pay tax rates from all the states and provinces they play in. So florida players will pay tax on their salaries for any away games they play in a state or province that has taxes. Which means players in high tax areas pay no tax in states with no tax.

Your point remains the same though, but its not just as cut and dry and talking their contract and adding/substracting the state/provincial tax rate.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Roughly

The players pay tax rates from all the states and provinces they play in. So florida players will pay tax on their salaries for any away games they play in a state or province that has taxes. Which means players in high tax areas pay no tax in states with no tax.

Your point remains the same though, but its not just as cut and dry and talking their contract and adding/substracting the state/provincial tax rate.

Well said! Several of the websites which calculate the difference completely ignore the impact of road games.

 

[Omni Owl]

Kings Leafs

 

[DragoGrizzly]

Roughly

The players pay tax rates from all the states and provinces they play in. So florida players will pay tax on their salaries for any away games they play in a state or province that has taxes. Which means players in high tax areas pay no tax in states with no tax.

Your point remains the same though, but its not just as cut and dry and talking their contract and adding/substracting the state/provincial tax rate.

I think Canadian players who live in Canada (like Marner) also having the benefit of being paid in USD while living in Canada is significant. So that 13.5 mil Marner was offered would actually be 18.7 mil CAD, which further diffuses the tax advantage a bit too like others have mentioned.

 

[Oilslick941611]

I think Canadian players who live in Canada (like Marner) also having the benefit of being paid in USD while living in Canada is significant. So that 13.5 mil Marner was offered would actually be 18.7 mil CAD, which further diffuses the tax advantage a bit too like others have mentioned.

exactly, the tax argument kind of falls flat for me. Living in Canada they gain almost 30% to offset the taxes. its a not a simple salary - taxes equation.

 

[Summer Rose]

exactly, the tax argument kind of falls flat for me. Living in Canada they gain almost 30% to offset the taxes. its a not a simple salary - taxes equation.

Without looking too much into it, since it would be more trouble than it's worth to analyze the potential earnings with the "jock tax" included and such, you're still correct. Then there are things like Auston Matthews taking the majority of his AAV in the form of a signing bonus, and so on... which leads me to where I'm going with it. The tax advantage does exist... but I think it's overblown. A tempest in a teacup. A small variable when it comes to a player deciding where he wants to play, assuming he's a UFA in the first place, among several more that are much more significant.

 

[Oilslick941611]

Without looking too much into it, since it would be more trouble than it's worth to analyze the potential earnings with the "jock tax" included and such, you're still correct. Then there are things like Auston Matthews taking the majority of his AAV in the form of a signing bonus, and so on... which leads me to where I'm going with it. The tax advantage does exist... but I think it's overblown. A tempest in a teacup. A small variable when it comes to a player deciding where he wants to play, assuming he's a UFA in the first place, among several more that are much more significant.

Theres no denying that there is an advantage buts not the 30-50% advantage that people talk about when bringing it up.

 

[pb1300]

Theres no denying that there is an advantage buts not the 30-50% advantage that people talk about when bringing it up.

That’s because people want to heavily use the tax situation as to why the Panthers are great, rather than mentioning they have the best management and coaching staff, along with players coming in wanting to win more than take up as much of the teams cap space as possible.

 

[HairyKneel]

People follow general trends and general opinions. Hence, their analysis of Toronto is off. There is nothing wrong with players in the "CoreFore" except they are together on the same team. Once they separate they will win. This is not a full picture, but the stats paint a completely different picture:

1. Points Per Game are exactly the same for those 4 players as in Regular Season.
2. The playoffs "elevated" game, people talk about, by McDavid and Dri is actually the same in terms of Points Per Game in the playoffs.
3. Alex Barkov is (watch out) 9th on Panters in the playoffs in terms of scoring for Points Per Game.
4. Core 4 scores on average 1 point per game in regular season and in the playoffs. How much more do you want from them when other stars produce them same.
5. Only Rantanen out scores the Toronto Core 4. The rest of Dallas does not even get close to Toronto scoring.

The problem is somewhere else. Just look at the playoffs stats for both Toronto and Florida and compare Points Per Game. You will get the correct answer. The Toronto team is simply build wrong. That's on management. They ran into Florida that is build as the best team right now. There is no way for Toronto to win this. Just compare their production across the team. Toronto is not overrated. It actually is underrated, and goes as far in the playoffs as their build allows them.

Keep us in the loop

 

[Martin Skoula]

exactly, the tax argument kind of falls flat for me. Living in Canada they gain almost 30% to offset the taxes. its a not a simple salary - taxes equation.

luxury real estate and other (luxury) products that would represent the majority of a young millionaires expenses are more than 30% more expensive in Canada comparatively. It’s maybe an advantage if you’re a quiet outdoors enthusiast without expensive tastes in Edmonton or Winnipeg but that 30% gain straight up doesn’t exist in Vancouver or Toronto.

 

[featherhawk]

nothing wrong with them, they are just not as good as the likes of Barkov, Rienhart, Tkachuk, Verhegee as an example...

 

[BlueMed]

I'm not "distorting" anything. You suggested a team can't win the Cup with a D-corps like Toronto's. I pointed out Pittsburgh did just that in 2017. You also ignored me bringing up 2009 where the Pens' top 4 that year was Gonchar, Orpik, Gill and Scuderi (the latter two being the shutdown pair). That's hardly worlds better than what Toronto has.

2017 alone disproves your point since it was done. Doesn't matter how many they won with better defensemen. That Cup was won with a worse (on paper) defensive corps than Toronto's. The reason? Because the highly paid elite forwards actually produced to compensate for a mediocre defense corps.

Using an outlier as a general strategy to win a cup doesn't really make a ton of sense, especially when the NHL has much more parity than ever before. There's also no forward on Toronto's team on the level of either Crosby or Malkin. At the end of the day, it's a combination of lackluster offense from their top guys AND bad defense/goaltending, which is why they have lost games 6-1. Reality is seldomly black and white.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Using an outlier as a general strategy to win a cup doesn't really make a ton of sense, especially when the NHL has much more parity than ever before. There's also no forward on Toronto's team on the level of either Crosby or Malkin. At the end of the day, it's not just the under performance of Toronto's top guys every year, it's also bad defense and goaltending which is why they have lost games 6-1.

Florida's back in the ECF with a defense that's not exactly a lot better than Toronto's. Edmonton made the Cup final last year with a similarly weak defense as Toronto's. And they did so with shitty goaltending as well. Carolina won the Cup in 2006 with a defense that was almost as bad as the Pens' 2017 defense corps.

It's not an outlier. The difference is the game breakers for those teams actually show up.

And that's the thing. If you're going to commit to that much money to four forwards at the expense of having to ice an average/slightly above average defense corps, then those forwards have to produce. You're going to have to make sacrifices somewhere in your lineup when you commit a large part of your cap to one area. That's entirely why the Pens could win Cups with average/slightly above average defense corps. Because their highly paid forwards who took up a large portion of the cap actually performed.

Which is precisely why all things circle back to the core four.

 

[BlueMed]

Florida's back in the ECF with a defense that's not exactly a lot better than Toronto's. Edmonton made the Cup final last year with a similarly weak defense as Toronto's. And they did so with shitty goaltending as well. Carolina won the Cup in 2006 with a defense that was almost as bad as the Pens' 2017 defense corps.

It's not an outlier. The difference is the game breakers for those teams actually show up.

And that's the thing. If you're going to commit to that much money to four forwards at the expense of having to ice an average/slightly above average defense corps, then those forwards have to produce. You're going to have to make sacrifices somewhere in your lineup when you commit a large part of your cap to one area. That's entirely why the Pens could win Cups with average/slightly above average defense corps. Because their highly paid forwards who took up a large portion of the cap actually performed.

Which is precisely why all things circle back to the core four.

The Pittsburgh Penguins run in 2017 was absolutely an outlier. How many other cup winners in the last 15-20 years have won without a bonafide number #1 defenseman? I wouldn't argue that a team inherently has to have one (i.e. Carolina Hurricanes in 2006), but go back and look at the list of teams and their respective defensemen. Stating that Panther's defense "is not exactly a lot better than Toronto's" is a pretty outlandish. Ekblad and Forsling already have significantly more value than Morgan Rielly, and Seth Jones makes for a fantastic all-around second pairing guy that Toronto simply doesn't have. Edmonton did not have a "similarly weak defense" as Toronto's. Evan Bouchard produced over a point per game in last year's playoffs and they could lean on guys like Ekholm and Broberg at times while Nurse struggled. While the Oiler's dont have a model D core, they have made significant strides in recent years unlike Toronto, which have convinced themselves that Morgan Reilly is a bonafide #1 guy (ideally a #2-3 on a cup contender).

TLDR: your argument that all of Toronto's problems can be solved if the core 4 simply produce more is very simplistic and unrealistic. There are structural issues across the roster that need to be addressed.

 

[Bank Shot]

People follow general trends and general opinions. Hence, their analysis of Toronto is off. There is nothing wrong with players in the "CoreFore" except they are together on the same team. Once they separate they will win. This is not a full picture, but the stats paint a completely different picture:

1. Points Per Game are exactly the same for those 4 players as in Regular Season.
2. The playoffs "elevated" game, people talk about, by McDavid and Dri is actually the same in terms of Points Per Game in the playoffs.
3. Alex Barkov is (watch out) 9th on Panters in the playoffs in terms of scoring for Points Per Game.
4. Core 4 scores on average 1 point per game in regular season and in the playoffs. How much more do you want from them when other stars produce them same.
5. Only Rantanen out scores the Toronto Core 4. The rest of Dallas does not even get close to Toronto scoring.

The problem is somewhere else. Just look at the playoffs stats for both Toronto and Florida and compare Points Per Game. You will get the correct answer. The Toronto team is simply build wrong. That's on management. They ran into Florida that is build as the best team right now. There is no way for Toronto to win this. Just compare their production across the team. Toronto is not overrated. It actually is underrated, and goes as far in the playoffs as their build allows them.

No. Tavares is the poison pill and always has been.

Matthews is like +150 at 5v5 in the regular season since Tavares joined the team. Good for 4th overall in that time. Behind only Mackinnon, Mcdavid and Pastrnk. 58% goal differential.

In the playoffs Matthews is still a respectable 54%. Marner is around that as well.

Tavares was fine in the regular season. Like 53% at 5v5. In the playoffs for the Leafs 42% 5v5. 42% is horrendous.

An $11 million dollar boat anchor in the playoffs.

That money could have been used in much better ways over the years especially 5 years ago when Tavares was getting a top 5 NHL salary.

You could make an argument that the other big 3 ended up making too much because of him as well.

 

[UED]

they went all in on the worst type of player you can have: the expensive scorer. Horrible, horrible roster that shouldn't even make it out of round 1(but any team can beat the Ottawa Senators). Their best dman is a #3D and they have no forward to play vs star players or PK. Who even defends the lead in the final minutes?? Do they just put out $10M worth of hockey out there to defend against $40M?

 

[NoName]

The big problem with the Leafs is psychological. They just choke in big moments, every singe time.

 

[pb1300]

The big problem with the Leafs is psychological. They just choke in big moments, every singe time.

How is it psychological? It’s choice. They have NEVER played the style of hockey required to, in the playoffs, and they never will. They are soft, and not willing to do so. That is their choice.

 

[sampollock]

Ego's In the core 5

 

[Sniper99]

He's a bum and coasts even when it's a long change. First round vs. Ottawa he did it a bunch. They've paid this guy more than Pastrnak for their entire careers. And if Marner is gone, his leadership position gains more power.

Been calling him Coastlander for years.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

Been calling him Coastlander for years.

Billy Bystander

 

[sampollock]

dont worry about mitch he is gone for free now

now the light is on nosrtils to carry this team, can't blame mitch now