There is nothing wrong with Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares.
- Thread starter awegrzyn
- Start date
Are those Selke votes in the room with us right now?
Just ignorant or what?
They were both nominees in separate years and get votes most years.
Nice. Did Marchand give them a couple extra squeezes in the handshake line for that?
who_me?
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Praetorian Caps
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It's seems to me Nylander is giving it his best go and really wants it?
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I am still struggling to understand how Selke votes are at all relevant in a conversation about the Core 4 becoming ghosts at playoff time. Did you explain that somewhere I missed?
This is what the scientific community calls “cope”. 10K posts would not indicate you have zero emotional attachment to the Leafs and how they perform. Quite the opposite, actually.
The convo was about how all the players were the same, they didn't have Selke level players or anything, just all pure scorers.
You should probably read before responding to people.
This is me taking steam off, but sure.
Fatass
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And Nylander had zero points in the final four games of that series. He’s soft as Charmin.
FinlandPanther
Registered User
They got votes because of Toronto bias not for actual defensive talent.
I do think the Selke is largely just name, not the best defensive forward, hence some of the nominees this year and most years, so we agree, it's a pointless award actually.
Matthews & Marner (roughly 24mil cap combined) "shutting down" - or being even in 5v5 goal differential to be precise - Barkov & Reinhart (about 18mil combined) is such a weird attempt at some sort of flex, even more so since all through the series they got absolutely destroyed in underlying metrics and lost the scoring battle in game 7.
Same stuff was brought up 22-23, when Matthews vs Barkov matchup was 0-0 all through the series and about 50/50 in underlying metrics, but what was conveniently ignored by Leafs fans back then was that Barkov line was then deployed as a pure shutdown line vs Matthews - they took 20 D-zone draws with only 2 O-zone draws in that matchup meaning they had a whopping 10% O-zone start percentage while Matthews line had 90% ... at least this time around zone starts were balanced, so I guess that's an improvement, though it really showed up in shot attempts and expected goals.
That said I think the playoff woes of Matthews and Marner as individual players are a bit overblown, they are still around P/GP which is nothing to sneeze at, it's just taking into account their cap hit and the way the team is built, that just doesn't cut it, especially when they rarely seem to rise up to the occasion in big games. It's just a horrible idea to pay star player money to 4 forwards, ALL of which really went for max earnings, like Matthews not only pushing for AAV but also structuring his contract lengths and Nylander holding out.
The players are well within their rights to do that, it falls on the GM who just lets everyone have their way and didn't draw a line anywhere. Sometimes you need to pay and if your star #1C who also happens to be the best goal scorer in the league wants to get paid, maybe you just have to pay him. But they are paying more to their #2C Tavares than Florida pays to Barkov (who took a team friendly deal), despite Tavares signing his contract way earlier, it just goes to show how insanely that team is built up top.
Same stuff was brought up 22-23, when Matthews vs Barkov matchup was 0-0 all through the series and about 50/50 in underlying metrics, but what was conveniently ignored by Leafs fans back then was that Barkov line was then deployed as a pure shutdown line vs Matthews - they took 20 D-zone draws with only 2 O-zone draws in that matchup meaning they had a whopping 10% O-zone start percentage while Matthews line had 90% ... at least this time around zone starts were balanced, so I guess that's an improvement, though it really showed up in shot attempts and expected goals.
That said I think the playoff woes of Matthews and Marner as individual players are a bit overblown, they are still around P/GP which is nothing to sneeze at, it's just taking into account their cap hit and the way the team is built, that just doesn't cut it, especially when they rarely seem to rise up to the occasion in big games. It's just a horrible idea to pay star player money to 4 forwards, ALL of which really went for max earnings, like Matthews not only pushing for AAV but also structuring his contract lengths and Nylander holding out.
The players are well within their rights to do that, it falls on the GM who just lets everyone have their way and didn't draw a line anywhere. Sometimes you need to pay and if your star #1C who also happens to be the best goal scorer in the league wants to get paid, maybe you just have to pay him. But they are paying more to their #2C Tavares than Florida pays to Barkov (who took a team friendly deal), despite Tavares signing his contract way earlier, it just goes to show how insanely that team is built up top.
For the playoffs, any two random $2 million grinders would be an upgrade.
Romang67
BitterSwede
Eh. The issue with the $2M grinder is that it wouldn't be shocking if they go in and put up 0 points in 10 games. Variance is massive from year to year with those players.
behemolari
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Yes, clearly.
Bergeron should have won a lot more than the others if the Selke was that important to winning.
He also won his first Selke after the Cup.
Kopitar won after his Cups.
Also, Pens, Lightning?
Your whole post is nonsense...
There's more than one way to structure a cup winning team, but I don't think it's pure nonsense an elite two-way center is one proven way to go about it. Selke is largely a reputation award, but usually that reputation doesn't come out of nowhere. So despite Kopitar and Bergeron not being Selke winners yet when they won their cups, doesn't mean they weren't already great two-way centers. Though technically I guess Bergeron was #2C or 1B when he won the cup.
But like I said, it's not the only way. Pens had insane top2 bunch and Crosby was a player you could put anyone on his wing and get good results and it's not like he was garbage defensively. I guess Lightning aproach was more of elite offensive talent, but they had Hedman/Vasi backing that up. Anaheim won their cup with Andy MacDonald as their #1C, but they also had Selänne on a sweetheart deal, kind of lucked into young Getzlaf & Perry coming into their own at the right time but most importantly they had Pronger & Niedermayer as their top2 D-men.
Leafs have the elite offensive talent and both Marner and Matthews are good defensively, especially taking into account the kind of offensive numbers they are capable of putting up. But elite offense is the most expensive thing to buy and the Leafs are buying that from 4 guys and none of them at very good value deals. IMO this years team was the best put together Leaf team in ages but it still fell short and having 45mil of cap tied in 4 forwards is part of the problem, especially when those players can get completely neutered in the playoffs by guys making millions less. That money tied in those 4 forwards is less available cap for D-men, 3rd liners, goalies.
FerrisRox
"Wanna go, Prettyboy?"
Are you asking what the "point" of accountability is?
Really?
You need to have it explained to you what the point of the top players on the team being accountable for their play is?
Sasha Orlov
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Gil Gunderson
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Gil Gunderson
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Marner has the second most playoff points behind Nylander.
They obviously need to change some things, but pretending like losing a 102 point winger who's PPG in the playoffs is nothing and something you can easily overcome is wild.
HofT
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I don't get why Nylander gets a pass here. His level of engagement is by far the worst. I get he has more big moments but he also has more shitty moments. 10 seasons, 685 GP, 67 playoff GP and still he's doing flyby's, not getting puck deep, giving up body position net front when defending in the playoffs. His soft play has lead to more GA than any of the others.
FerrisRox
"Wanna go, Prettyboy?"
It's funny, too, to add some context for the one point that Marner and Matthews got.
Marner got his "point" when a Panther player gave the puck away and put it right on Marner's tape. Marner immediately pushed the puck forward to Matthews who then took a low-event shot along the ice that somehow got through the legs of Boborovsky.
They all look the same on paper, but Marner pretty much did nothing and I really don't think the shot was what Matthews was looking for, but it worked.
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Not that it matters much, but Marner forced that turnover and made the simple play to Matthews. Sure Bob wants it back, but a point is a point, and I find dissecting or discounting goals like this kind of strange. I'm NOT saying either of them are the answer in TOR, but points are points.
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