There is nothing wrong with Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares.

[JFedol]

Superstars are the face and bus drivers of practically all teams in every sport.

If they're not producing in clutch time and have a massive sample size of underperforming. Your team is respectfully done, pack it up and expect the golf course soon. There's only so much your depth truly can do.

I'll give Nylander a pass, but the fact that all other core players for the Leafs still aren't PPG after 9 playoff years tells everything.

Definition of paper tigers

 

[Opus]

Nothing right about them either, especially come spring...

Fantastic regular season performers who aren't able to 'flick the playoff switch'

If nothing changes, nothing will change - time to blow it up

 

[Oleksiak]

What’s wrong with Morgan Rielly?

An absolute refusal to attempt to learn how to play live an NHLer in his own zone. He might be able to handle a winger position, but he's made it clear that he's not capable of playing defence.

 

[Oleksiak]

The problem is, outside of Nylander, they have no heart and do not seem to give a shit.

Nylander refuses to backcheck and plays scared.

 

[sampollock]

Nylander refuses to backcheck and plays scared.

and nostrils is so overrated

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

yeah nothing wrong thats why matthews is like 0W-7L in every single do or die game of his career

I saw Marner make a blind backhand pass in his own zone, turnover, 3-0, and I says “goddammit management.”

 

[eojsmada]

Need to remove Nylander out of this "equation" and then look at Matthew/Marner/Tavares in "must win" games or series ending games. Ultimately, though, the reason why they don't have good scoring depth is because the "four" are paid so much that the team can't afford to supplement them, making them, essentially, a one line team that makes it easier for teams to shut down, especially when the Leafs are on the road. So with increased pressure at home to score because they have a chance at having more favorable matchups, you start to see who does and doesn't show up when needed. Looking at counting stats barely begins to tell the story of how poorly this team is constructed.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Agreed it's a problem, but it's not the only problem.

No team is winning with the depth scoring Toronto is getting right now.

Florida has about the same amount of cap in 4 forwards + goaltending as Toronto has in 4 forwards + goaltending.

Don't disagree with anything you say. Interesting point including goaltending and I really hadn't thought about it in that way, but the TML have really gotten good goaltending even with "going cheap" at that position. (Really out of necessity considering what the core 4 make).

The point that I would make is that while there is a "standard template" for a contender. The best example would be TB from 3-4 years ago with an elite #1G, #1C, Norris D-man, multiple difference makers and great depth that can create energy while being great defensively and still contribute offensively. Not every team organization is going to be lucky enough to have all those things come to fruition, and it's the GM's job to give his team the best chance possible. The TML is hampered because the core 4 got paid like they were elite P/O difference makers without actually proving that. FLA took a different route by being unbelievably successful in player reclamation projects (Forsling, Verhaege, etc.) and also making some ridiculous trades (Tkachuk, Bennett, Reinhart, and to a lesser extent Jones).

The key difference in this year's series is that the Panthers 3rd line of Lundell, Luostorainen and Marchand are match-up nightmares. The Panthers paid less to acquire Marchand than the Leafs did for Laughton, and that difference right now is huge. The really galling thing for the TML is that Treliving was really active and I thought was able to fills major holes by adding Carlo & Laughton, but it hasn't really mattered.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Just because you can't understand numbers and don't watch the games doesn't mean I have a motive...

I think they all deserve blame, I just think it is weird to only blame two of them.



I am blaming the core too, learn to read.

It isn't like they are producing at a Pettersson level... they are still producing close to PPG.



The issue is, that he doesn't score significantly more, so he shouldn't be exempt from criticism.

Sure. They’ve only underperformed in the playoffs for 6 straight years now. Not bias indeed!

 

[Canadiens Ghost]

Sure, nothing wrong with them. Even if they lose the series, run it back... again.

 

[Bradely]

They were 3-0 against Barkov's line in the first two games, I'll take that, but they have been far worse in the last 3 games.

I don't expect them to ever dominate that line.

They need to do more, but that is a tough line to play against.

If 34 upgrades his level of play, IMO he can be extremely dominant. But that is not what he is. He will win, but not leading a team as a leader.... if he does not elevate. That is how I see it

 

[GlitchMarner]

And produces less than Marner and the same as Matthews...

Also, cheats a lot to create offense.

Other than that, 100% correct.

He was also making about $7 mil until recently whereas the others were making substantially more. He's been more productive relative to salary.

Also, Marner was easily a better playoff player than Nylander until the Montreal series in 2021. Since then, Nylander has been the better playoff player and has given his team better value relative to his contract.

 

[notbias]

He was also making about $7 mil until recently whereas the others were making substantially more. He's been more productive relative to salary.

Also, Marner was easily a better playoff player than Nylander until the Montreal series in 2021. Since then, Nylander has been the better playoff player and has given his team better value relative to his contract.

View attachment 1037317

* when only looking at points.

He barely has more points and has not been used the same way Marner has, Marner is still more valuable.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Only thing wrong with them is they’re not very good

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

"Depth scoring is the issue with the Leafs"

Meanwhile, Matthews has zero goals in this round. So apparently you can't expect your top guy to score to win you games, but you can put the blame on the depth scoring for not winning games.

The ONLY time you can use "lack of depth scoring" to excuse a team's losses to remove blame from the stars is if THE STARS ARE ACTUALLY SCORING. If Matthews had 5 goals this series and the Leafs were down 3-2 because of a lack of depth scoring, that's one thing. But when he literally hasn't scored this round, it's beyond silly to use depth scoring as a reason for the Leafs' on the brink of elimination.

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

Keep telling yourself that in between hits of copium, OP

 

[GlitchMarner]

"Depth scoring is the issue with the Leafs"

Meanwhile, Matthews has zero goals in this round. So apparently you can't expect your top guy to score to win you games, but you can put the blame on the depth scoring for not winning games.

The ONLY time you can use "lack of depth scoring" to excuse a team's losses to remove blame from the stars is if THE STARS ARE ACTUALLY SCORING. If Matthews had 5 goals this series and the Leafs were down 3-2 because of a lack of depth scoring, that's one thing. But when he literally hasn't scored this round, it's beyond silly to use depth scoring as a reason for the Leafs' on the brink of elimination.

Agreed. Depth scoring is supposed to supplement the scoring from star players. Depth guys shouldn't have to carry the offense.

The Leafs' depth scoring has been bad in the playoffs in general, but in these playoffs, Patches and Domi both have as many goals as Auston Matthews. They've also been getting goals from defensemen. Rielly has four (twice as many as Matthews). Is depth scoring the biggest issue when you have supporting guys with as many goals as your star goal scorer and a defenseman with twice as many goals as your best player?

It would be a different thing if Matthews was a pass-first guy and constantly setting guys up for goals. But scoring goals is his biggest strength. He's been getting assists, but I feel many have come off rebounds from his shots or have been secondary assists or PP assists off routine passes.

 

[Skiiiiiiinerrr]

yeah nothing wrong thats why matthews is like 0W-7L in every single do or die game of his career

Exactly. I nearly spit my coffee out when I saw the thread.

 

[winnipegger]

I have determined this thread is factually inaccurate please close immediately.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

People follow general trends and general opinions. Hence, their analysis of Toronto is off. There is nothing wrong with players in the "CoreFore" except they are together on the same team. Once they separate they will win. This is not a full picture, but the stats paint a completely different picture:

1. Points Per Game are exactly the same for those 4 players as in Regular Season.
2. The playoffs "elevated" game, people talk about, by McDavid and Dri is actually the same in terms of Points Per Game in the playoffs.
3. Alex Barkov is (watch out) 9th on Panters in the playoffs in terms of scoring for Points Per Game.
4. Core 4 scores on average 1 point per game in regular season and in the playoffs. How much more do you want from them when other stars produce them same.
5. Only Rantanen out scores the Toronto Core 4. The rest of Dallas does not even get close to Toronto scoring.

The problem is somewhere else. Just look at the playoffs stats for both Toronto and Florida and compare Points Per Game. You will get the correct answer. The Toronto team is simply build wrong. That's on management. They ran into Florida that is build as the best team right now. There is no way for Toronto to win this. Just compare their production across the team. Toronto is not overrated. It actually is underrated, and goes as far in the playoffs as their build allows them.

A fantastic post for those folks who spend thousands of hours staring at their stat spreadsheets ... but never actually watch the games.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

It would be a different thing if Matthews was a pass-first guy and constantly setting guys up for goals. But scoring goals is his biggest strength. He's been getting assists, but I feel many have come off rebounds from his shots or have been secondary assists or PP assists off routine passes.

I can't recall which game, but he ended up with I believe 2 assists that night. The first "assist" was the puck was fired on net, it deflected off his stick into the corner, and then a Leaf picked it up and shot it from a bad angle and it found it's way into the net. The second "assist" was literally him rimming the puck around the boards and it went to a Leaf on the opposite side who, once again, took a long range shot that happened to beat Bob through a mass of bodies.

On the score sheet, that's two points. But in reality, did he really do ANYTHING of special note to create those goals? A random deflection into the corner and a rim around the boards. That's hardly someone darting through traffic, undressing a D-man, and then sending a pass over to a teammate for a wide open tap in. And that seems to be the bulk of Matthews' points this playoffs. Some random "just happened to touch the puck" a couple of plays before the goal was scored. I can't recall any of his points being "damn, Matthews created that opportunity" variety.

 

[behemolari]

they are doing just fine

 

[cvaicunas]

It’s the playoffs.. you score however you can. You going criticize him for trying to win?

When people say that, they are generally referring to scoring gritty, ugly goals. Not loosening up defensively to cheat for goals.

 

[Thirty Seven]

Glad this is finally settled

 

[JFedol]

I can't recall which game, but he ended up with I believe 2 assists that night. The first "assist" was the puck was fired on net, it deflected off his stick into the corner, and then a Leaf picked it up and shot it from a bad angle and it found it's way into the net. The second "assist" was literally him rimming the puck around the boards and it went to a Leaf on the opposite side who, once again, took a long range shot that happened to beat Bob through a mass of bodies.

On the score sheet, that's two points. But in reality, did he really do ANYTHING of special note to create those goals? A random deflection into the corner and a rim around the boards. That's hardly someone darting through traffic, undressing a D-man, and then sending a pass over to a teammate for a wide open tap in. And that seems to be the bulk of Matthews' points this playoffs. Some random "just happened to touch the puck" a couple of plays before the goal was scored. I can't recall any of his points being "damn, Matthews created that opportunity" variety.

That's Matthews playmaking as a whole to a degree. People be wondering why he's so trash in the playoffs when it's, basically just him being a 1 dimensional offensive goalscoring centre with mediocre playmaking/passing ability at best who takes a volume of shots with the puck on his stick just like Stamkos.

The whole playmaker (dual threat, not pure like Huberdeau, Thronton, Henrik Sedin) vs goalscorer debate has never been close at all.

People that mention Marner, don't realize how much his size and probably his position hold him back. He should've became a centre back in 2015. It may have fored him to work on his shot more and bulk up