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Fogelhund

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Sep 15, 2007
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Apparently Bowman had the same personality temperament that you speak of with regards to Babcock and that didn't stop player after player on team after team from playing for him.

If these guys thought Babcock was hard on them they would have thought the guy I worked for cutting grass in high school was a dictator. Getting yelled at in the face making millions of dollars a year sucks. It sucks even more when you're making minimum wage.

If these guys don't have the mental fortitude that goes into the head games the worlds best coaches play with the media, competition, fans, players, and pretty much the entire world, then they don't have the strength of mind it takes to win.
Bowman hasn't coached in this league in almost a quarter of a century.

I've never once heard anything about Bowman doing anything near what Babcock has.

If you think the problem with Babcock is he's hard on players, you really need to do some reading. This isn't head games in the least... seriously.... or maybe you condone what Babcock's done? In which case fair enough, that speaks volumes right there. You do realize he got canned in Columbus, before even coaching a game, for inappropriate behaviour right?

Bowman and Babcock are nothing alike, and neither are Berube and Babcock, that I'm aware of... and if Berube is actually like Babcock, he won't coach a game here either....
 

TMLBlueandWhite

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Feb 2, 2023
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Bowman hasn't coached in this league in almost a quarter of a century.

I've never once heard anything about Bowman doing anything near what Babcock has.

If you think the problem with Babcock is he's hard on players, you really need to do some reading. This isn't head games in the least... seriously.... or maybe you condone what Babcock's done? In which case fair enough, that speaks volumes right there. You do realize he got canned in Columbus, before even coaching a game, for inappropriate behaviour right?

Bowman and Babcock are nothing alike, and neither are Berube and Babcock, that I'm aware of... and if Berube is actually like Babcock, he won't coach a game here either....

Babcock reminds me of the Sargeant in Full Metal Jacket.

Clearly he was an asshat all the players hated. That didn't prevent him from being a HOF head coach who won the cup and gold medal. Players that want to win it all will find a way to dig in deep and overcome all obstacles.

Including a head coach whose guts you hate so much you want shoot him like the fat kid did to the Sargeant in Full Metal Jacket.
 

Fogelhund

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Sep 15, 2007
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Babcock reminds me of the Sargeant in Full Metal Jacket.

Clearly he was an asshat all the players hated. That didn't prevent him from being a HOF head coach who won the cup and gold medal. Players that want to win it all will find a way to dig in deep and overcome all obstacles.

Including a head coach whose guts you hate so much you want shoot him like the fat kid did to the Sargeant in Full Metal Jacket.
So you don't know what he's done, or condone it and don't care?
 

TMLBlueandWhite

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Feb 2, 2023
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So you don't know what he's done, or condone it and don't care?

Were talking about the Leafs here.

All the shitty things he did to other players on other teams doesn't affect how the Leafs did under him. From what I remember the biggest thing Leafs related the media made a stink out of was that stupid list of Marner's. If that's the reason Marner stinks in the playoffs that says a lot more about Marner than it does Babcock.

Anything non-Leafs related is irrelevant when it comes to this core and Babcock.

Edit: oh yeah, and he sat Spezza the first game.

😭😭😭
 
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Fogelhund

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Sep 15, 2007
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Were talking about the Leafs here.

All the shitty things he did to other players on other teams doesn't affect how the Leafs did under him. From what I remember the biggest thing Leafs related the media made a stink out of was that stupid list of Marner's. If that's the reason Marner stinks in the playoffs that says a lot more about Marner than it does Babcock.

Anything non-Leafs related is irrelevant when it comes to this core and Babcock.

Edit: oh yeah, and he sat Spezza the first game.

😭😭😭
So, you don't understand at all... that's cool.
 

Evilhomer

Registered User
Oct 10, 2019
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So you don't know what he's done, or condone it and don't care?
Put me in the "I don't care" camp. Let's take a deep breath. He was "mean" to grown men who play sports. He made them feel uncomfortable? La dee da. Has anyone here with a real job not had difficult people to work with? I think there is a reason that only a few players, of the thousands he would have coached over the years, have come forward to say anything.

All the shitty things he did to other players on other teams doesn't affect how the Leafs did under him. From what I remember the biggest thing Leafs related the media made a stink out of was that stupid list of Marner's. If that's the reason Marner stinks in the playoffs that says a lot more about Marner than it does Babcock.

Edit: oh yeah, and he sat Spezza the first game.

😭😭😭
Exactly. When I was a wee young lawyer I had partners tear strips off me, engage in psychological warfare and basically do their best to make me feel like gum under their shoe, all for the sake of feeding their grand egos. Happens in every job everywhere. That doesn't make it right or pleasant or enjoyable in the least. But it does make it reality.
 

Fogelhund

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Sep 15, 2007
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Put me in the "I don't care" camp. Let's take a deep breath. He was "mean" to grown men who play sports. He made them feel uncomfortable? La dee da. Has anyone here with a real job not had difficult people to work with? I think there is a reason that only a few players, of the thousands he would have coached over the years, have come forward to say anything.


Exactly. When I was a wee young lawyer I had partners tear strips off me, engage in psychological warfare and basically do their best to make me feel like gum under their shoe, all for the sake of feeding their grand egos. Happens in every job everywhere. That doesn't make it right or pleasant or enjoyable in the least. But it does make it reality.
He got fired from Columbus for behaviour that isn't acceptable in any modern workplace, including the NHL. Behaved the same way here. Strange that people find this ok... I guess it says a lot.
 

Confucius

There is no try, Just do
Feb 8, 2009
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Toronto
lol man f*** the current NHL system. imagine a system where in order to win a cup it makes sense not to have McDavid. this is why the NBA will always be better
Speaking of McDavid I watched 2 of his games this year he quits on plays with the best of them. lol! True he scored the game winner last game but that same game there was like 10 seconds left in a period. Dallas just got possession in their end and were flying up the ice. McDavid just quit on the pursuit and watched. The stars shot missed but the buzzer didn’t go until well after the puck hit the boards behind the net.
 
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Evilhomer

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Oct 10, 2019
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He got fired from Columbus for behaviour that isn't acceptable in any modern workplace, including the NHL. Behaved the same way here. Strange that people find this ok... I guess it says a lot.
I didn't say I find it okay. I said I don't care. Yes, asking to look through an employee's photos on his or her phone is ridiculous, but it pales, literally pales, in comparison to some of the truly awful stuff that people in power do (which includes older players against younger teammates, if anyone here has ever been the victim of a hazing incident). The stuff that happened in Chicago? That's a big deal, and it's truly mystifying to me that Babcock has somehow developed a worse reputation than the coach who oversaw one of his players being sexually abused. Welcome to 2024.
 

conFABulator

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Apr 11, 2021
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If this is his team he ain't exactly making a case for them making it official. Why would they want to be led by a regular season hero and playoff ghost?


So?




Being captain has nothing to do with his role as a middle winger.





Thankfully you aren't their GM.



Who said anything about not trying?




And it is just so simple to do that is it? Just go out and get them like I'll pop out for milk today?






Yeah, trust the GM and coach to do it rather than coming up with simplistic ideas like "make a playoff ghost the captain and just pop out and grab some top four defencemen".
I see. Not sure why you comment then really. I am quite happy to have a discussion about all of the points in my OP. It is a discussion board and all.

You don't like my ideas and your preferred approach is to trust the GM and coach? You were a big Dubas and Keefe guy then? You trusted them?

I don't know anything about you, but based on this exchange you seem to like to piss on things but not offer your own opinions.

Who should the captain be?
How do you rebuild a defense core?
What comparables do you use when assessing Tavares' value?
 

conFABulator

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Apr 11, 2021
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I didn't say I find it okay. I said I don't care. Yes, asking to look through an employee's photos on his or her phone is ridiculous, but it pales, literally pales, in comparison to some of the truly awful stuff that people in power do (which includes older players against younger teammates, if anyone here has ever been the victim of a hazing incident). The stuff that happened in Chicago? That's a big deal, and it's truly mystifying to me that Babcock has somehow developed a worse reputation than the coach who oversaw one of his players being sexually abused. Welcome to 2024.
I think the problem with Babcock is that he is now a multiple offender. There were stories of how HE treated people in Toronto but he was not suspended or anything, just had questions around his ability to coach today's NHLers. CBJ was willing to take a chance and then he blew that. He is still not suspended or anything and is no way being treated worse that Quenneville.
 

WillNy29

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Jun 20, 2018
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Speaking of McDavid I watched 2 of his games this year he quits on plays with the best of them. lol! True he scored the game winner last game but that same game there was like 10 seconds left in a period. Dallas just got possession in their end and were flying up the ice. McDavid just quit on the pursuit and watched. The stars shot missed but the buzzer didn’t go until well after the puck hit the boards behind the net.
reading these boards youd think only toronto players quit on plays lol
 

TMLBlueandWhite

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Feb 2, 2023
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He got fired from Columbus for behaviour that isn't acceptable in any modern workplace, including the NHL. Behaved the same way here. Strange that people find this ok... I guess it says a lot.

You must have some serious bow legs riding around on that high horse all day.

You implied it was the core who might have trouble with hard nosed coaches yourself.

But keep playing the morality card if it makes you feel any better.
 

57 Years No Cup

New and Improved Username!
Nov 12, 2007
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Players have no problem with 'hard nosed' coaches if they believe in them, players just want to win.
Babcocks failings had nothing to do with being 'hard nosed', it was his whacked out approach to things.
Like what? Can you make a list?:laugh:
 
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57 Years No Cup

New and Improved Username!
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He got fired from Columbus for behaviour that isn't acceptable in any modern workplace, including the NHL. Behaved the same way here. Strange that people find this ok... I guess it says a lot.
I'm no Babcock lover, but if you're not gonna clarify (for those of us that haven't heard) what Babcock got "fired" in Columbus for then PC statements like "behaviour that isn't acceptable in the modern workplace" will and should be mocked as the woke statement it is.
 
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Fogelhund

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Sep 15, 2007
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I'm no Babcock lover, but if you're not gonna clarify (for those of us that haven't heard) what Babcock got "fired" in Columbus for then PC statements like "behaviour that isn't acceptable in the modern workplace" will and should be mocked as the woke statement it is.
I'm sorry that you don't have access to google, or some other search engine, or are lazy....
 

Captain Crunch

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Mar 31, 2019
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This year should be viewed as the first in a two year re-tool and re-load for a window to win over the next three to five years. We have a new GM with his first full off-season, a new coach, young players and prospects ready to contribute, contracts coming off the cap, the cap rising, and key players in their prime.

We cannot waste this opportunity and cannot go "all-in" this year at the expense of a window we have here.

THIS OFF-SEASON PRIORITIES

Trade Marner
for two pieces and prospects (and therefore cap space). Something like the suggested Wright and Oleksiak (with picks or prospects) is fine for us. Wright gives us a middle-six centre on the right timeline and Oleksiak is a big, hometown boy filling a top four role. Removing Marner will bring a strong, presumably strong cultural change for the team. How issues with contract, the playoffs and the media are not things he will grow out of and he will be gunning for $12M on his next deal. Take two pieces and $6M in cap space.

Deal with Tavares now by extending this this off-season. Get him locked up for three or four more years for under $3M per. For his production as a middle six centre or winger this is good value. We also shouldn't force our hometown captain off the team. Release the pressure valve on him by changing him from overpaid underperformer to underpaid, discount taking leader. He should also trade letters with Matthews. This is Auston's team, let's make it so.

Lock in Bertuzzi and Domi for a combined $10M or less per year for four or five years. These are the types of guys we want. They play hard, they bring the snot and grit, they can play up and down the lineup, and help us absorb the loss of Marner with goals and playmaking for Matthews, on the PP too.

Make room for the kids by moving out overpaid under-contributors. Marner, Samsonov, Brodie, Kampf, and Jarnkrok. Two walk in FA, Marner is dealt, and so are Kampf and Jarnkrok -- the latter two without much return. We need room and opportunity for youngsters to start/continue to contribute. Knies, McMann, Robertson, Holmberg, Dewar, Benoit, Woll can all play at the NHL level and many are ready to give more with more opportunity. We also need to get Cowan, Minten, Grebenkin, Tverberg, Steeves, Hirvonen, Niemela, Webber, and Hildeby a chance to see if they can be part of this and some will. Maybe find 150 games for this group to split this year. We do this by moving guys out and by not clogging the lineup with too many vets that won't give us much more. Maybe we keep Gregor as RFA though.

Fix the D and start now. In addition to Oleksiak or Larsson, sign three more D at a combined $12M. Make one of them a top four and make at least two of them RD. Sign Liljegren to a one year, show me one last time deal, around $2M. As for rh acquisitions, think Roy with term, and Tanev or Demelo, or Hakanpa, Lyubushkin and Edmundson. Go seven deep and leave opportunities for Niemela, Webber, Rifai, and others to get a cup of NHL coffee.

Bridge goaltending for one more year by spending our remaining cap space wisely. We should have about $4M or $5M left here and spend it on a 1B or high end back up. We have to see if Woll can stay healthy enough to be our guy. I think one of Stolarz, Dredger, Nedjelkovic, Broissoit, DeSmith, Lankinen or Talbot will come at short term, +/- $3M per. Sign Jones and /or Murray as our third guy and maybe sign both so we can inevitably lose one on waivers. Be ready for Hildeby to jump all of these guys and play some games if he shows he is ready.

Knies Matthews Domi
Bertuzzi Tavares Robertson
Cowen Weight Nylander
Dewar Holmberg McMann
Gregor

Rielly Tanev/Demelo
McCabe Oleksiak/Larsson
Benoit Liljegren
Lyubushkin/Edmundson/Haakanpaa

Woll
Stolarz/Broissoit/Nedjelkovic
Jones/Murray
Hildeby

Next Year

1. Use the cap increase to re-sign Knies, Woll, and maybe Liljegren.

2. Use the Tavares savings on an $8M D, F, or G

3. Plan to have 3 or 4 kids busting down the door for meaningful ice time. Cowan, Minten, Grebenkin, Hildeby, Niemela, etc.

We finally get to a core with proper allocations across F, D and G. We finally have guys contributing on low cap hits, and we finally have a gap rising where we can outspend others.
I like your thinking, very well thought out! One change I would make though, is switch McMann and Cowan. If McMann can stay healthy he could play in the top 6, but why not start him on 3rd line. Cowan is definitely going to be a very good player, but let's start him on the 4th line where he will have easier match ups to start his career. He will eventually be in the top 9 for sure. As for Liljegren, chances are he will be traded, but I agree that we could sign him for the one year prove you belong here deal.
 

Captain Crunch

Registered User
Mar 31, 2019
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1. Marner trade yes

2. Tavares, no, he should not be brought back unless its a desperate last option. And no 3 or 4 year deal. He sucks and should get 1 year deal max

3. Domi + Bert at a max of 8.5M combined for a minimum of 4 years each. Either buy in to the team and committ for a bit cheaper or f*** off
Number 3 is the right way to approach that. I hope that they would agree to that because they do play with pride and passion, Bert more so than Domi, although Domi certainly had his moments this season.
 

Fogelhund

Registered User
Sep 15, 2007
23,320
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I knew you'd duck it. Boring.

Duck it... no. Why should I do the ground work for a lazy person, who lacks the ability to find information on their own, and then try and spin it as an insult? Imagine the incompetence of someone who can't even do a simple google search, and then blame someone else for not spoon feeding them the answer.
 

57 Years No Cup

New and Improved Username!
Nov 12, 2007
8,815
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Duck it... no. Why should I do the ground work for a lazy person, who lacks the ability to find information on their own, and then try and spin it as an insult? Imagine the incompetence of someone who can't even do a simple google search, and then blame someone else for not spoon feeding them the answer.
Why should I have to do a Google search on something you asserted? You made a claim, now back it up, or your OP is just PC Garbage just like I said.
 

conFABulator

Registered User
Apr 11, 2021
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I like your thinking, very well thought out! One change I would make though, is switch McMann and Cowan. If McMann can stay healthy he could play in the top 6, but why not start him on 3rd line. Cowan is definitely going to be a very good player, but let's start him on the 4th line where he will have easier match ups to start his career. He will eventually be in the top 9 for sure. As for Liljegren, chances are he will be traded, but I agree that we could sign him for the one year prove you belong here deal.
Thanks very much.

I should have said that the lines are more suggestions or a depth chart or placeholders.

I agree that McMann has earned top 9 and that Cowan is a wildcard. I think he is a huge wildcard. I am not one to rush prospects but I think this kid could be special and soon. I have some lineups where I see him on the top line with AM34. Who knows if he can make this that quickly, but it almost feels sheltered to have him with Matthews and Domi and if he can step in at that level that soon it changes our trajectory.

I think Liljegren might get moved also. I don't know why his value is so I kept him in and believe if we swap him out we replace him with a similar player with similar questions.

I would move him though. I wonder about adding him and Robertson to the Marner deal to get another piece back...Larsson or Borgen. It makes us better now and makes the deal more enticing for the Kraken.

Marner
Robertson
Liljegren

..for...

Wright
Oleksiak
Larsson
Picks/Prospects
 
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Captain Crunch

Registered User
Mar 31, 2019
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Thanks very much.

I should have said that the lines are more suggestions or a depth chart or placeholders.

I agree that McMann has earned top 9 and that Cowan is a wildcard. I think he is a huge wildcard. I am not one to rush prospects but I think this kid could be special and soon. I have some lineups where I see him on the top line with AM34. Who knows if he can make this that quickly, but it almost feels sheltered to have him with Matthews and Domi and if he can step in at that level that soon it changes our trajectory.

I think Liljegren might get moved also. I don't know why his value is so I kept him in and believe if we swap him out we replace him with a similar player with similar questions.

I would move him though. I wonder about adding him and Robertson to the Marner deal to get another piece back...Larsson or Borgen. It makes us better now and makes the deal more enticing for the Kraken.

Marner
Robertson
Liljegren

..for...

Wright
Oleksiak
Larsson
Picks/Prospects
I am so torn on Robertson. If you put him with say, Jarnkrok, and a solid 2 way centerman who could make plays in the ozone, would that work? It would allow Robertson to focus more on his offensive capabilities, while the other two could help with his defensive limitations. Of course the problem is that we do not have that centerman.
 

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