The Vet vs. Prospect theory

[SirKillalot]

Which had far more to do with goaltending and defense than lack of scoring. Your hopes of more than half the lineup having 20+ goals and 40+ points is pretty unrealistic as something sustainable.

No, it had to do with we need to score more goals. Most good things aren't sustainable in hockey.
I do agree that there is a bigger step needed in defense and similar to you I think it will come when those defensive pieces the franchise want in the d-core gets implemented it will improve, but I doubt we get super defensive that's why I'd like to see adding more goals.

We were top 10 in goals last season. I don't necessarily agree more goalscoring is immediately needed. If we scored another 5 goals we'd have been top 6 in the league. That's pretty good for a team still a few years away from it's prime.

So, you are saying we going to score more goals. Exactly what I'm saying. Should aim for 25 more goals, and if one defensively can get 30-40 goals better we are looking like a top team.

Zadina was "shafted" because he couldn't score. Like, he literally COULD NOT score. Why would someone ask a guy to be a scoring forward if he can not score?

Are we asking Lucas Raymond to become a bottom 6 checking forward? No? Weird how that works.

That's my point. Luckily they haven't put Lucas Raymond down on 3rd/4th line and told him to work on defense like they did Zadina. Zadina couldn't score cause his whole line couldn't score enough.
In the shortened season he was 5th in scoring.
In the season before he had 15 points in 28 matches, if he played the whole season he would be somewhere around the same with around 5th.

My point is team wasn't patient enough with him like they have been with Rasmussen. Yes they are playing different roles and have some different responsibilities, but we also didn't draft Rasmussen 9th overall for him to end up as a 3rd line center.

Now, I'm fine with how Rasmussen is turning out as a player, but we had time to give to Zadina as well if we wanted to. Either way we not gonna agree and he's not on the team anymore so it doesn't matter. But, for me when someone say we wasted a pick on Zadina being a bust, I'd say we made sure by making him so by not using him right and not being patient enough with him. Unless there were some personality problems with him, which it doesn't seem to be.

 

[Gniwder]

My point is team wasn't patient enough with him like they have been with Rasmussen. Yes they are playing different roles and have some different responsibilities, but we also didn't draft Rasmussen 9th overall for him to end up as a 3rd line center.

Now, I'm fine with how Rasmussen is turning out as a player, but we had time to give to Zadina as well if we wanted to. Either way we not gonna agree and he's not on the team anymore so it doesn't matter. But, for me when someone say we wasted a pick on Zadina being a bust, I'd say we made sure by making him so by not using him right and not being patient enough with him. Unless there were some personality problems with him, which it doesn't seem to be.

Huh? That's some really strange revisionist history. He asked to be traded, then agreed to a contract termination because nobody wanted his contract. Even then the only GM that was willing to take a chance was the worst team in the league.

He got his chance at SJ playing PP1, still sucked. He whiffs on one timers, that's on him to practice. Never developed any other shot, only has one move, no gap control defensively, mediocre skater, average size build. He's never coming back to the NHL, your assessment of his talent and skill level is completely off base if you think he'll be back in 2 years.

 

[SirKillalot]

Huh? That's some really strange revisionist history. He asked to be traded, then agreed to a contract termination because nobody wanted his contract. Even then the only GM that was willing to take a chance was the worst team in the league.

Because they didn't give him time and tossed him around and told him to work on defense only etc.
When I'm saying there weren't patient enough with him I'm not saying they shipped him off, I'm saying they didn't let him develop in a role. So yes, he got sick of it and bet on himself and moved on.

He got his chance at SJ playing PP1, still sucked. He whiffs on one timers, that's on him to practice. Never developed any other shot, only has one move, no gap control defensively, mediocre skater, average size build. He's never coming back to the NHL, your assessment of his talent and skill level is completely off base if you think he'll be back in 2 years.

Okay yes he was so bad he got drafted 6th overall. Absolutely terrible...listen to yourself...
Is it a bigger chance he doesn't come back to the NHL? Yes. I wouldn't rule him out given his age.
We shall see, maybe a year or two in Swiss NLA or in SHL will do him some good playing in a top six role and getting his confidence back and development, as development doesn't always go linear.
Personally I hope he gets back, I don't think he is as terrible as you make him out to be.

 

[Gniwder]

Because they didn't give him time and tossed him around and told him to work on defense only etc.
When I'm saying there weren't patient enough with him I'm not saying they shipped him off, I'm saying they didn't let him develop in a role. So yes, he got sick of it and bet on himself and moved on.


Okay yes he was so bad he got drafted 6th overall. Absolutely terrible...listen to yourself...
Is it a bigger chance he doesn't come back to the NHL? Yes. I wouldn't rule him out given his age.
We shall see, maybe a year or two in Swiss NLA or in SHL will do him some good playing in a top six role and getting his confidence back and development, as development doesn't always go linear.
Personally I hope he gets back, I don't think he is as terrible as you make him out to be.

He matured early and had an advantage over his peers, then didn't have the IQ to take it any further. We still have another one on the team named Joe Veleno. He had CHL exceptional status. There's always at least a couple players like that in the first round that don't pan out, and that particular draft was really thin at forward, but Kenny didn't want to pick a D like he should have because he thought he was all set with Cholo and Hronek. (Zadina still has the 7th highest point total for a forward picked in 2018 which is kinda sad.)

A lot of your criticism should be aimed towards the player, not the team. It's on Zadina to improve the timing on his one timer, it's on him as a player to develop more than one offensive move, it's on him to understand he can't step into players like McAvoy because they're gonna turn him inside out. With him, everything is someone else's fault, because he doesn't understand that the issue is his inability to adjust.

If you actually watched Zadina (which I highly doubt), you would know that his only move was to do a big headfake at the blue line then make an inside move to get by the first defender then get stripped by the second D. EVERY TIME, except this one time.... at band camp... he goes outside on the second D, makes a nice pass, gets an assist, then NEVER USES THE SAME MOVE AGAIN in his career because it worked. I guess he loved to fail.

Anyways, one of his best plays as a Wing:

 

[SirKillalot]

We still have another one on the team named Joe Veleno.

I don't think Joe Veleno was ever seen as a top six "sure thing". He was seen as one with 2nd line potential but most likely 3rd line/bottom six guy. I think him as well hasn't really been given a road to where he could have a chance of getting into such positions where he could have a chance to develop into a 2nd line guy. Mostly because we went out and got Compher and Copp instead of pushing the young ones into those roles. Which is fine, I think he will find his way into a "bigger role" eventually, whether its with the Red Wings or elsewhere. But this "a prospect got to take a spot" is very narrow view point if they don't get a chance to get pushed or given opportunities / set in a position to be able to take those spots. And when saying bigger role, doesn't mean he ever will be a 2nd liner, but maybe a really solid 3rd liner with Detroit or in a different franchise where he will get recognized for that role. Now we are speaking majority not the few with insane talent level who end up doing whatever they want.

Now he has been playing some full seasons now and think he is finding a role with Detroit, hopefully he can nail down that spot. But I think to keep him long term, he needs to get up to at least 3rd line and stay there, or he will probably sign elsewhere as UFA later on if he is in Detroit and not traded before that point. Its not really viable long term to pay him what he got as 4th line center.

A lot of your criticism should be aimed towards the player, not the team. It's on Zadina to improve the timing on his one timer, it's on him as a player to develop more than one offensive move, it's on him to understand he can't step into players like McAvoy because they're gonna turn him inside out. With him, everything is someone else's fault, because he doesn't understand that the issue is his inability to adjust.

Well its both right. The thing is kids in that age have a lot of different levels of maturity and its up to the people around them to define how to coach players in different degrees. So I agree some is on the player but also some is on the coaching staff. In that age there is a lot of players who basically don't have a clue themselves on how to develop and needs to get coached. And then there is a good group who has a certain idea and need guidance, then others who it just falls natural for or have a bigger inner drive to find the solutions themselves. Some based on personality / personality traits.

Coaches or coaching staffs have a lot of both influence and power when it comes to this, and one can see that in other sports too. If you don't get "pushed" by coaches or end up in their favourable corner you don't necessarily takes those steps you could have if you had other coaches to guide you.

The reason for why its a lot of nepotism in hockey, its not like the kids of former stars become good just because they are their kids. Its because they get "pushed" forward. Yes of course they do the work, but they got people in their corner whether directly or through "politics".

 

[sepster]

When people rip on Rasmussen, they’d literally be laughed out of an NHL scouting/coach’s meeting.

He does all the little things, and he’s very hard to play against, at his size, with that reach. They’re a much better team when he’s in the lineup. Copp does a lot of those same things. Rasmussen is properly paid, Copp is overpaid. Doesn’t degrade what either does as a player, just because they don’t score enough for the stat watchers.

We now live in this generation of “Stat Watcher” sports fans. Who rarely watch games and judge everything on statistics. Even those who watch, many have been programmed the same way. Stats mean everything to this generation of sport fans. They even make up analytics to judge random things. What they can never make up though, is there’s 4 other skaters on the ice. All of varying degrees of skill, etc. not to mention opposing players and goaltenders of varying degrees of talent.

If an NHL player is on the ice for 1000 minutes, ask yourself how many of those minutes is the puck on a player’s stick?? Then obviously how many minutes he’s playing without the puck AND what he’s doing during that time?

Literally, over 99% of your NHL career, you’re playing the game without the puck. Exactly why the “stat watchers” have no business judging hockey players, as hockey players. Maybe as goal scorers, but not hockey players.

As for Rasmussen, his game has finally slowed down (for him) over the last 18 months or so. You can physically see how good of a player he’s becoming, if you understand the game and what he’s being asked to do.

Once the game slows down for a young player, that’s when he’s now gonna settle into what he’ll be for the next 7-10 years. His scoring will go up some, and as his role settles, and so will his point totals. We still don’t have that answer on Rasmussen, because he can play a variety of roles. For example, two years ago, most of his points came as a net front presence. Last year, he got no PP time and little time playing that role. If he’s used as a net front presence on the PP, his point totals will probably rise 10-15 points, as his scoring rose from standard 5 on 5 play. They used him in more of a defensive role last year too.

Over the next year or so, he’ll settle into his complete game.

So why on earth would they get rid of a guy they spent all that time developing, just as they’re finally seeing it all pay off? We’ll see where his point totals end up settling, but as of right now, he does a whole lot of the work that allows his line mates to become more productive players as well.

When you watch opposing telecasts over the last year or so, one of the things you hear the most? “Wow, we never realized how good Rasmussen was.”

So it’s a shame, so many of Detroit’s own fans don’t appreciate what he does. There’s a reason he’s on practically every starting face off, of every period, and after every goal.. No matter what line it is. Those who don’t like him, watch that every night. If the Wings gain possession, he immediately changes. If they don’t, he’s the player they trust the most, to be on the ice to start the period from a defensive position.

Stat watchers do the same thing, even worse, with Dmen too. They judge everything on statistics. For hockey people, it’s beyond frustrating.

I know that in the locker room, the coaching staff loves Rassmussen. He is focused and dedicated. He takes his spot in the NHL seriously and works very hard at his job. I know he does the little things that are important.

I question whether, in the game, him doing the little things is all that effective. Yes, he is a big man, and long. He takes up space, but I don't see him as all that intimidating, physically, to the opposing team. Maybe taking up space and being decent positionally could qualify him as being hard to play against but I don't see opposing players looking over their shoulder when he's on the ice. He hasn't shown the closing speed or balance/leverage to use his size as a physical presence. More importantly, in this regard, he doesn't have the temperament to play that way. I know the coaching staff has tried to cultivate a mean streak in him and he can't, or won't, get there.

That is my main frustration with him. The Wings sorely lack physically intimidating players. They have for years, and it has been a problem. Austin Watson, who I know you like and want on the team, is in camp to try to fill that need. Rassmussen should already being filling that role. If Rassmussen had Watson's temperament, he'd be incredibly valuable.

In regard to the game situations the Wings use Rassmussen for, I don't know how much of an endorsement of his effectiveness I take from that considering the Wings' roster the past few years. Only last season have they had a line with an identity anywhere close to a match-up line. Who else is available to put on the ice for defensive/possession faceoffs? Not Sprong or Fabbri or Debrincat or Kane. Copp, Fischer, Rassmussen, and Veleno are really the only forwards the Wings could save for those situations, given what they would rather be using Larkin, Raymond, Perron, etc for.

I guess my take is that while he works hard, is dedicated, does the little things coaches love, I just don't think he's all that effective, in game.

Honest question for you, I really do love your opinion and insights on these matters, if Rassmussen was Austin Czarnik's size, would he be in the NHL?

 

[lilidk]

I know that in the locker room, the coaching staff loves Rassmussen. He is focused and dedicated. He takes his spot in the NHL seriously and works very hard at his job. I know he does the little things that are important.

I question whether, in the game, him doing the little things is all that effective. Yes, he is a big man, and long. He takes up space, but I don't see him as all that intimidating, physically, to the opposing team. Maybe taking up space and being decent positionally could qualify him as being hard to play against but I don't see opposing players looking over their shoulder when he's on the ice. He hasn't shown the closing speed or balance/leverage to use his size as a physical presence. More importantly, in this regard, he doesn't have the temperament to play that way. I know the coaching staff has tried to cultivate a mean streak in him and he can't, or won't, get there.

That is my main frustration with him. The Wings sorely lack physically intimidating players. They have for years, and it has been a problem. Austin Watson, who I know you like and want on the team, is in camp to try to fill that need. Rassmussen should already being filling that role. If Rassmussen had Watson's temperament, he'd be incredibly valuable.

In regard to the game situations the Wings use Rassmussen for, I don't know how much of an endorsement of his effectiveness I take from that considering the Wings' roster the past few years. Only last season have they had a line with an identity anywhere close to a match-up line. Who else is available to put on the ice for defensive/possession faceoffs? Not Sprong or Fabbri or Debrincat or Kane. Copp, Fischer, Rassmussen, and Veleno are really the only forwards the Wings could save for those situations, given what they would rather be using Larkin, Raymond, Perron, etc for.

I guess my take is that while he works hard, is dedicated, does the little things coaches love, I just don't think he's all that effective, in game.

Honest question for you, I really do love your opinion and insights on these matters, if Rassmussen was Austin Czarnik's size, would he be in the NHL?

No and if Czarnik was Rasmussen size he would be top 6

 

[wingsfannn919191]

So is there Any chance yzerman can find a way to get rid of holl before game 1?? Or maybe deal a maata? Think we'd be better off going 13-7-3

Debrincat larkin raymond
Tarasenko kasper kane
Rasmussen compher berggren
Motte copp Fischer
Watson

Edvinsson seider
Chiarot Petry
Maata gustafsson
Johansson

+ the 3 goalies

I'd like to see something like that or not sign Watson and make motte the 13th forward and keep a fischer veleno copp 4th line.... wont happen but I think we need to give bigger roles to the kids

Kasper needs to make the lineup. Surround him with kane for a season and let him learn from one of the greats,could pay in the long run.

For the record I dont wang a chiarot petry pairing but sadly I think that's where we're heading. Petry never should have been traded for

Or bottom 6

Mazur compher berggren
Rasmussen copp Fischer
Motte

Either way I think our defense will fail us big time this season. Cant expect to win with the likes of maata petry chiarot gustafsson and 2 rookies. At the very least let us see some kids and stop delaying the inevitable

 

[cvaicunas]

Experience and specialists. Motte is one of the best 4th liners in the NHL, and Gustavsson keeps getting jobs because he has some elite offense to his game.

I think one thing Detroit fans have to come to terms with (by now) with Yzerman is… he’s a firm believer in young players earning their spot on a team. He’s probably freaking out mentally that Johansson and Berggren are no longer waiver exempt.

He’s very, very old school in the regard and that’s understandable coming from the Detroit Red Wings. They believe in developing players into complete players.

In a way, if you really think about it, it’s hard to argue with how he handled Edvinsson now. Not with as good as he was those last 15-20 games.

He always said, when he makes the move for good, it’s not gonna be to play on that bottom pairing, 12 minutes a night, or to be protected.. It was going to be when Edvinsson was ready to play the role they’ve been preparing him to play since they drafted him. The reason they drafted him.

That kid walked right into a playoff race and was their 2nd best Dman, carrying a pairing 20+ minutes a night. Who’s completely earned his spot now.

In comparison, look how much the kids in NJ, and Jiricek or Brandt Clarke struggled at times last year. All 4 of those kids who are in that Edvinsson range of player, still need major protection in the NHL, and Edvinsson is carrying a Top 4 pair already? Even with Hughes and his offensive output, he’s been horrible in his own end. They didn’t make the playoffs last year because of how bad Nemec and Hughes were defensively.

So it is hard to argue. This summer NJ had to also go out and get expensive veterans to help protect those kids. Columbus got smart and sent Jiricek down last year to play major minutes like Edvinsson was. I bet you it pays off this year.

I’m of the belief, if you can develop them properly, you do it. Veleno, Rasmussen and Zadina didn’t have that luxury. They didn’t have enough NHL talent to allow those guys to develop properly. So it’s taken longer and one kid is ruined..

I’d wager in 2 years, Edvinsson, Kasper, etc, are 200’, play in all situations, who are really good NHL players, where guys like Nemec and Hughes have a major flaw in their game still. A flaw that either never gets fixed, or they’ll be 25-26 before it’s fixed because of maturity, experience and/or the player working on his game by himself over the summer. Much like a Rasmussen, who watch him take a major jump over the next year still. He had what? 2.5 seasons of development 100% wasted? Not even counting his NHL games he wasn’t learning anything. He was surviving out there.

He’s still developed into a really solid NHL player, but what could’ve he been? Or still might end up when he’s 26? When it could’ve been 23-24. He played a whole lot of NHL games where he was learning on the fly, where he should’ve been playing #1 C minutes in Grand Rapids. Even when Yzerman sent him down, they had to bring him back too soon, because they needed players. Same with Veleno. He needed at least another season in the AHL. Maybe more.

I can’t remember the statistic they use and it’s been a minute, but with high end prospects (Top 50 picks) for every AHL Game of experience developing, it’s worth like 3 NHL games on average, under the age of 22 or 23…. that’s the age I can’t remember. Pretty sure it’s 23.

Also, by the time a player is 26, which is fully developed, he is generally a less complete player if he doesn’t have those 150-200 AHL games under 22-23 years old.

26-33 are considered your prime earning years. Also, a player who plays 150+ AHL games before becoming an NHL regular, plays more NHL games between 30-35, and the reason given? They’re usually much more responsible veteran players. Your natural goal scorer who can’t score anymore, really can’t do anything else types, are forced out of the league already.

So it’s always nice when a kid is so good like Lucas Raymond, that he’s already in the NHL and still gets better every year. Those type of kids are special players. But for every Raymond there’s 10 players like Dawson Mercer in NJ.. Who a team is blinded by his initial success, and he’s a very up and down player already. Who unless he commits to getting better outside of the season, he’s never going to grow the other areas of his game.

To me, that’s why you make a kid earn it. Don’t just hand a young kid an NHL job. If you want your NHL team to have any success, you really do keep adding to your roster, until he has. Last year, I think Edvinsson was ready to play earlier in the year, but we’re really only talking half of a season to argue about. It’ll be meaningless in 3 years. I think a Danielson and Kasper are in very similar positions now. If you end up having to get rid of players when the kids do earn those spots? It’ll usually work out for you with picks, etc.

I actually believe one or both, is gonna end up getting their big chance with an injury, and force Detroit to keep them after that. If one makes the team out of camp, my guess is they’ll trade Copp and move Compher to 3C. I doubt they will keep either to start the year, playing a role they don’t envision the kid playing in the NHL.

Detroit fans never had to be patient before these last 3-4 years. Kids like Datsyuk just appeared out of nowhere because they team was always good. Those players were still developing behind the scenes though. It’s just nobody was impatient, because the team was always winning.

I’m not sure very many fans truly understood how long it takes to develop NHL players, because they were always enjoying the NHL team so much.

Pittsburgh fans are about to find this out too. They’re gonna be in for a long road coming up soon. Although they always seem to win lotteries. lol.

Yea there was also the added benefit to not having social media and the internet to the degree we have now. I remember as a kid going to Barnes and Noble, hiding out in the magazine isle, and reading about Datsyuk and Zetterberg being the next great Wings prospects. Datsyuk made the show the next season, and I watched the Olympics just to watch Z play.