The Vet vs. Prospect theory

[SirKillalot]

Which had far more to do with goaltending and defense than lack of scoring. Your hopes of more than half the lineup having 20+ goals and 40+ points is pretty unrealistic as something sustainable.

No, it had to do with we need to score more goals. Most good things aren't sustainable in hockey.
I do agree that there is a bigger step needed in defense and similar to you I think it will come when those defensive pieces the franchise want in the d-core gets implemented it will improve, but I doubt we get super defensive that's why I'd like to see adding more goals.

We were top 10 in goals last season. I don't necessarily agree more goalscoring is immediately needed. If we scored another 5 goals we'd have been top 6 in the league. That's pretty good for a team still a few years away from it's prime.

So, you are saying we going to score more goals. Exactly what I'm saying. Should aim for 25 more goals, and if one defensively can get 30-40 goals better we are looking like a top team.

Zadina was "shafted" because he couldn't score. Like, he literally COULD NOT score. Why would someone ask a guy to be a scoring forward if he can not score?

Are we asking Lucas Raymond to become a bottom 6 checking forward? No? Weird how that works.

That's my point. Luckily they haven't put Lucas Raymond down on 3rd/4th line and told him to work on defense like they did Zadina. Zadina couldn't score cause his whole line couldn't score enough.
In the shortened season he was 5th in scoring.
In the season before he had 15 points in 28 matches, if he played the whole season he would be somewhere around the same with around 5th.

My point is team wasn't patient enough with him like they have been with Rasmussen. Yes they are playing different roles and have some different responsibilities, but we also didn't draft Rasmussen 9th overall for him to end up as a 3rd line center.

Now, I'm fine with how Rasmussen is turning out as a player, but we had time to give to Zadina as well if we wanted to. Either way we not gonna agree and he's not on the team anymore so it doesn't matter. But, for me when someone say we wasted a pick on Zadina being a bust, I'd say we made sure by making him so by not using him right and not being patient enough with him. Unless there were some personality problems with him, which it doesn't seem to be.

 

[Gniwder]

My point is team wasn't patient enough with him like they have been with Rasmussen. Yes they are playing different roles and have some different responsibilities, but we also didn't draft Rasmussen 9th overall for him to end up as a 3rd line center.

Now, I'm fine with how Rasmussen is turning out as a player, but we had time to give to Zadina as well if we wanted to. Either way we not gonna agree and he's not on the team anymore so it doesn't matter. But, for me when someone say we wasted a pick on Zadina being a bust, I'd say we made sure by making him so by not using him right and not being patient enough with him. Unless there were some personality problems with him, which it doesn't seem to be.

Huh? That's some really strange revisionist history. He asked to be traded, then agreed to a contract termination because nobody wanted his contract. Even then the only GM that was willing to take a chance was the worst team in the league.

He got his chance at SJ playing PP1, still sucked. He whiffs on one timers, that's on him to practice. Never developed any other shot, only has one move, no gap control defensively, mediocre skater, average size build. He's never coming back to the NHL, your assessment of his talent and skill level is completely off base if you think he'll be back in 2 years.

 

[SirKillalot]

Huh? That's some really strange revisionist history. He asked to be traded, then agreed to a contract termination because nobody wanted his contract. Even then the only GM that was willing to take a chance was the worst team in the league.

Because they didn't give him time and tossed him around and told him to work on defense only etc.
When I'm saying there weren't patient enough with him I'm not saying they shipped him off, I'm saying they didn't let him develop in a role. So yes, he got sick of it and bet on himself and moved on.

He got his chance at SJ playing PP1, still sucked. He whiffs on one timers, that's on him to practice. Never developed any other shot, only has one move, no gap control defensively, mediocre skater, average size build. He's never coming back to the NHL, your assessment of his talent and skill level is completely off base if you think he'll be back in 2 years.

Okay yes he was so bad he got drafted 6th overall. Absolutely terrible...listen to yourself...
Is it a bigger chance he doesn't come back to the NHL? Yes. I wouldn't rule him out given his age.
We shall see, maybe a year or two in Swiss NLA or in SHL will do him some good playing in a top six role and getting his confidence back and development, as development doesn't always go linear.
Personally I hope he gets back, I don't think he is as terrible as you make him out to be.

 

[Gniwder]

Because they didn't give him time and tossed him around and told him to work on defense only etc.
When I'm saying there weren't patient enough with him I'm not saying they shipped him off, I'm saying they didn't let him develop in a role. So yes, he got sick of it and bet on himself and moved on.


Okay yes he was so bad he got drafted 6th overall. Absolutely terrible...listen to yourself...
Is it a bigger chance he doesn't come back to the NHL? Yes. I wouldn't rule him out given his age.
We shall see, maybe a year or two in Swiss NLA or in SHL will do him some good playing in a top six role and getting his confidence back and development, as development doesn't always go linear.
Personally I hope he gets back, I don't think he is as terrible as you make him out to be.

He matured early and had an advantage over his peers, then didn't have the IQ to take it any further. We still have another one on the team named Joe Veleno. He had CHL exceptional status. There's always at least a couple players like that in the first round that don't pan out, and that particular draft was really thin at forward, but Kenny didn't want to pick a D like he should have because he thought he was all set with Cholo and Hronek. (Zadina still has the 7th highest point total for a forward picked in 2018 which is kinda sad.)

A lot of your criticism should be aimed towards the player, not the team. It's on Zadina to improve the timing on his one timer, it's on him as a player to develop more than one offensive move, it's on him to understand he can't step into players like McAvoy because they're gonna turn him inside out. With him, everything is someone else's fault, because he doesn't understand that the issue is his inability to adjust.

If you actually watched Zadina (which I highly doubt), you would know that his only move was to do a big headfake at the blue line then make an inside move to get by the first defender then get stripped by the second D. EVERY TIME, except this one time.... at band camp... he goes outside on the second D, makes a nice pass, gets an assist, then NEVER USES THE SAME MOVE AGAIN in his career because it worked. I guess he loved to fail.

Anyways, one of his best plays as a Wing:

 

[SirKillalot]

We still have another one on the team named Joe Veleno.

I don't think Joe Veleno was ever seen as a top six "sure thing". He was seen as one with 2nd line potential but most likely 3rd line/bottom six guy. I think him as well hasn't really been given a road to where he could have a chance of getting into such positions where he could have a chance to develop into a 2nd line guy. Mostly because we went out and got Compher and Copp instead of pushing the young ones into those roles. Which is fine, I think he will find his way into a bigger role eventually, whether its with the Red Wings or elsewhere. But this "a prospect got to take a spot" is very narrow view point if they don't get a chance to get pushed or given opportunities / set in a position to be able to take those spots. Now we are speaking majority not the few with insane talent level who end up doing whatever they want.

A lot of your criticism should be aimed towards the player, not the team. It's on Zadina to improve the timing on his one timer, it's on him as a player to develop more than one offensive move, it's on him to understand he can't step into players like McAvoy because they're gonna turn him inside out. With him, everything is someone else's fault, because he doesn't understand that the issue is his inability to adjust.

Well its both right. The thing is kids in that age have a lot of different levels of maturity and its up to the people around them to define how to coach players in different degrees. So I agree some is on the player but also some is on the coaching staff. In that age there is a lot of players who basically don't have a clue themselves on how to develop and needs to get coached. And then there is a good group who has a certain idea and need guidance, then others who it just falls natural for or have a bigger inner drive to find the solutions themselves. Some based on personality / personality traits.

Coaches or coaching staffs have a lot of both influence and power when it comes to this, and one can see that in other sports too. If you don't get "pushed" by coaches or end up in their favourable corner you don't necessarily takes those steps you could have if you had other coaches to guide you.

The reason for why its a lot of nepotism in hockey, its not like the kids of former stars become good just because they are their kids. Its because they get "pushed" forward. Yes of course they do the work, but they got people in their corner whether directly or through "politics".