The state of the Habs Rebuild - The Next step

[StreetHawk]

Agreed. What you have to do is draft well and hope you have redundancies so you can make trades, or pick off a UFA or two. Maybe you move Reinbacher to a just starting to rebuild team to get an older RHD that can step in now and be a big presence for the next 4-5 years in the top pair , as an example.

Key assets to load up on are Dmen and C. Wingers are typically not going to get your a C/D in return in trade unless you are dealing a higher end offensive winger away, like a Hall for Larsson type of move.

 

[teamfirst]

Exactly what it says.

Seriously, do you think that people saying they dont like the way this rebuid is progressing are simply trolling...... sorry maybe my english is not good enough but i'm really not sure what messages your trying to pass there

 

[Spring in Fialta]

So... Chicago wasn't a rebuild? Pittsburgh? Washington? Colorado? LA?

And yeah, drafting high works. Some teams need to draft high longer than other but at the end of the day, it's almost always a high pick who is among those leading the way to a cup. Towes, Kane, Malkin, Crosby, Ovechkin, Backstrom, Mackinnon, Makaar, Doughty, Stamkos, Hedman...

Non rebuilding cup winners are the exception. St Louis is a good example. It happens but it's almost always a team who's rebuilt through the draft with high picks.

That of course doesn't mean if you rebuild you'll automatically (or immediately) win a cup. Look at Tampa. That was a successful rebuild and it took them a long time to put it together. 3 top five picks in six years and another two top tens. But they didn't win a cup until ten years later. And there are of course stories of rebuilds that went sideways.

That can happen here. Injuries have already messed up our progress. We'd be a lot further ahead without them but... that's the luck of the draw. It doesn't mean you abandon the plan.

Moreover, you don't write off players after a bad start to the season. Some people have the patience of a squirrel... you have to see things through. And again - doesn't mean it will pan out. Kirby Dach may never become the player we hoped, but let's give him more the twenty games after a devastating injury to show us. If he doesn't make it... that sucks. But it's not the end of the world. We're packed with young talent and most of it isn't even here yet.

Washington and Pittsburgh, yeah. Chicago, LA, no. Colorado was always half-in/half-out, selling players, acquiring new shiny vets (Iginla, etc) all the time or getting forced into moves by disgruntled guys like Duchene. I've detailed why and how these teams did it a bunch of times and don't particularly care to do it again. But if Hughes made some of the moves those teams made in the midst of getting high picks, most here would be calling for his head and crying that we're not rebuilding.

I'd argue that Montreal pretty much went scorched earth for theirs, which isn't as common as we think, at least post Pittsburgh-Washington.

The path towards a cup is not a straight line. Look at Tampa. Three straight years of top six picks. Then they seem to move forward only to draft top top ten two years in a row again. It took them over ten years to become the powerhouse they did.

Imagine if they'd listen to a whiney fan saying 'Let's just forget this... no point in showing patience here. These bums are never going to be anything...'

The Bolts never rebuilt. They were always trying to compete and make the playoffs. Every single year.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

The path towards a cup is not a straight line. Look at Tampa. Three straight years of top six picks. Then they seem to move forward only to draft top top ten two years in a row again. It took them over ten years to become the powerhouse they did.

Imagine if they'd listen to a whiney fan saying 'Let's just forget this... no point in showing patience here. These bums are never going to be anything...'

With your reasoning you've admitted multiple times that there is no way of knowing if we are on the right course or not, it's really just a case of pessimism vs optimism.

What we do know is that the "best case scenario" situation for our rebuild is no longer in play. The plan was to be somewhat competitive this year and we just aren't. We're going to miss the playoffs for the 4th straight year which will be the 1st time in Habs history.

The plan from the jump, with the trades we made, was to be competitive in 3 years and contenders in 5. Sure, a lot of rebuilds take 5-7 years or never materialize. We're looking more at the 5-7 year range now, and if Dach, Newhook, etc keep struggling it gets scarier than that.

So - while it is maybe what should be expected out of a rebuild, we shouldn't be pretending that everything is going perfectly and Hughes is a savant, when in reality our rebuild is trending average, or if the trades continue to prove lackluster, well below average.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Seriously, do you think that people saying they dont like the way this rebuid is progressing are simply trolling...... sorry maybe my english is not good enough but i'm really not sure what messages your trying to pass there

Not directed at you.

I think some people go out of their way to express concern over things to a ridiculous extent. Being all over Slafkovsky from game one for example. Now talking about how it's silly to be patient with slumping players when we're not even a quarter of the way into the year... YES that's concern trolling.

Not thinking a rebuild is the right path or thinking the rebuild is going the wrong way, that's fine.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

The Bolts never rebuilt. They were always trying to compete and make the playoffs. Every single year.

Tampa was a team of aging superstars more similar to San Jose, except the Sharks made the mistake of doing right by their players instead of shipping them out when they had value and building around the younger core.

Tampa had crazy injuries and also went to the conference finals in between their bottom 10 finishes. Not a great comparison for us unless you want to say the rebuild started with Kotkaniemi or Sergachev. They also got Stamkos and Hedman with their top-3 picks which is a whole lot better than what we got

 

[Perfect_Drug]

I'm an Oiler fan first, but I've always liked the habs since you guys knocked off Calgary in 86 (and stopped Wayne from winning his cup outside of Edm in 93).

As fun as this team is to watch at times, I hate to say this strangely reminds me of the Oilers rebuild v1.0 (but done properly).

The talent of Suzy, Caufield, and Slaf remind me of when we were running Hall, Eberle, and RNH (plz don't hate me). They might have been good enough up front if we had a Norris caliber Dman and/or Vezina goalie. But Hall and Eberle were both top-10 scorers at some point.


Even though I've lived here in Montreal, for 18 years, I've only watched a handful of games this season (2 and 6-year-old), I feel like this team is 1 elite piece away from being a contender.

Suzy is a damn good player, but I get the feeling if he were the #2C, the Habs would be a contender. I'm a huge fan of Gulhe. Watched him back on the Oil Kings. He still has time to get there.



I know it sucks being year 4 of a rebuild, but you gotta ride this out till you get that elite talent, and it's likely going to come in the draft. Every 3-4 years you'll get a MacKinnon or McDavid. The absolute worst thing you guys can do is speed this up or rush it.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Washington and Pittsburgh, yeah.

Okay.

Chicago, LA, no.

????

Chicago drafted five straight years of top 11. Four top tens, three top fives. Yes, that's a rebuild. LA had three straight years drafting 11th. Followed by three straight top five picks. Doughty by far their best player.

I remember sitting here back then telling people that those clubs would be contenders. All won cups.

Colorado was always half-in/half-out, selling players, acquiring new shiny vets (Iginla, etc) all the time or getting forced into moves by disgruntled guys like Duchene. I've detailed why and how these teams did it a bunch of times and don't particularly care to do it again. But if Hughes made some of the moves those teams made in the midst of getting high picks, most here would be calling for his head and crying that we're not rebuilding.

So what? Again, they drafted high and got key players to help them win. Are we not rebuilding because Hughes sold some draft picks for Dach and Newhook? I don't think so right? Makaar and Mackinnon won them cups. Just like Doughty did for LA. Just like Kane and Toews did for Chicago, just like Crosby Malkin did for Pittsburgh, Ovechkin and Backstrom for Washington, Stamkos and Hedman for Tampa...

I'd argue that Montreal pretty much went scorched earth for theirs, which isn't as common as we think, at least post Pittsburgh-Washington.

I don't care if it's common. It's the right way to do things. Not every trade will work out but some will. One of those trades landed us Lane Hutson.

The Bolts never rebuilt. They were always trying to compete and make the playoffs. Every single year.

Sure. After six years of drafting high.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Tampa was a team of aging superstars more similar to San Jose, except the Sharks made the mistake of doing right by their players instead of shipping them out when they had value and building around the younger core.

Tampa had crazy injuries and also went to the conference finals in between their bottom 10 finishes. Not a great comparison for us unless you want to say the rebuild started with Kotkaniemi or Sergachev. They also got Stamkos and Hedman with their top-3 picks which is a whole lot better than what we got

It's insane to try to argue that Tampa didn't rebuild. Stamkos and Hedman are two HOFers. Kucherov came from a lucky draft pick but he was still drafted during that period as well.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Tampa was a team of aging superstars more similar to San Jose, except the Sharks made the mistake of doing right by their players instead of shipping them out when they had value and building around the younger core.

Tampa had crazy injuries and also went to the conference finals in between their bottom 10 finishes. Not a great comparison for us unless you want to say the rebuild started with Kotkaniemi or Sergachev. They also got Stamkos and Hedman with their top-3 picks which is a whole lot better than what we got

Tampa Bay did the same thing. Kept Lecavalier, St.Louis. Signed Prospal and Boyle to long-term deals. Only dealt Richards to try and get a starting goalie, which they sorely needed, as they'd been running pure trash in net like John Grahame for years after losing Khabibulin.

 

[teamfirst]

Not directed at you.

I think some people go out of their way to express concern over things to a ridiculous extent. Being all over Slafkovsky from game one for example. Now talking about how it's silly to be patient with slumping players when we're not even a quarter of the way into the year... YES that's concern trolling.

Not thinking a rebuild is the right path or thinking the rebuild is going the wrong way, that's fine.

Fair enough, but their always gonna be fans that dont like certain players doesn't mean they're trolling, in Slaf case tho those fans are only showing their lack of understanding of the game cuz he's gonna be a very good player....than again that's only my opinion i could be wrong.

On the other end i dont think Barron is gonna be very good.... to me it's not trolling it's just an opinion that i have, same thing for MSL.

 

[junyab]

Winning the cup, dead last in the league, same thing really

My statement remains true.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Okay.

????

Chicago drafted five straight years of top 11. Four top tens, three top fives. Yes, that's a rebuild. LA had three straight years drafting 11th. Followed by three straight top five picks. Doughty by far their best player.

I remember sitting here back then telling people that those clubs would be contenders. All won cups.


So what? Again, they drafted high and got key players to help them win. Are we not rebuilding because Hughes sold some draft picks for Dach and Newhook? I don't think so right? Makaar and Mackinnon won them cups. Just like Doughty did for LA. Just like Kane and Toews did for Chicago, just like Crosby Malkin did for Pittsburgh, Ovechkin and Backstrom for Washington, Stamkos and Hedman for Tampa...


I don't care if it's common. It's the right way to do things. Not every trade will work out but some will. One of those trades landed us Lane Hutson.

Sure. After six years of drafting high.

Chicago were also giving disastrous long-term deals to Khabibulin and Aucoin while trading futures for Havlat in the midst of all this. They were stuck with the awful Wirtz and the team was in shambles. They spent big post-lockout trying to make the playoffs right away but got Toews
and Kane instead.

Twist yourself all you want, that is not a rebuild. Not even close. Los Angeles was signing guys like Dan Cloutier and Rob Blake and selling no one. That's not a rebuild.

No comparison there with that and buying young players like Dach and Newhook. None at all.

The Tampa Bay Lightning we're hoping to make the playoffs every single year they drafted high, including 2008. They never went into a year thinking 'we're good with losing and getting a high pick'. It never, ever happened. And I lived in Central Florida at the time.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Fair enough, but their always gonna be fans that dont like certain players doesn't mean they're trolling, in Slaf case tho those fans are only showing their lack of understanding of the game cuz he's gonna be a very good player....than again that's only my opinion i could be wrong.

Agreed.

On the other end i dont think Barron is gonna be very good.... to me it's not trolling it's just an opinion that i have, same thing for MSL.

And you could be right.

But he's really young. He's big, fast, has puck skills. Making the jump as an NHL defenseman is the hardest thing you can do. It will be a while before he reaches his potential - if he ever reaches it.

If we trade him, so be it. That might be the right move because I think we need a vet back there. But we could really regret it down the road. Right shot, skilled, skating blueliners aren't easy to come by. Look at Tage Thompson.... it took him a while but he's a legit star player now. Imagine this place if Barron turns into a really good player somewhere else.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Chicago were also giving disastrous long-term deals to Khabibulin and Aucoin while trading futures for Havlat in the midst of all this. They were stuck with the awful Wirtz and the team was in shambles. They spent big post-lockout trying to make the playoffs right away but got Towed and Kane instead.

And they succeeded despite this.

Again, I don't care if teams were trying to compete or not. At the end of the day the rebuild was forced upon them. And they succeeded despite themselves. Several years drafting high and yielding HOF players out of it.

All the more reason to go the route Hughes did. Embrace it. Trade for picks/players. That's how we got Hutson.

Twist yourself all you want, that is not a rebuild. Not even close. Los Angeles was signing guys like Dan Cloutier and Rob Blake and selling no one. That's not a rebuild.

I don't have to twist anything. They had a sustained period of drafting high and it resulted in them getting their best player who led them to a cup. They're a rebuild, full stop.

No comparison there with that and buying young players like Dach and Newhook. None at all.

Who cares? It doesn't change anything here.

The Tampa Bay Lightning we're hoping to make the playoffs every single year they drafted high, including 2008. They never went into a year thinking 'we're good with losing and getting a high pick'. It never, ever happened. And I lived in Central Florida at the time.

I don't care if they were hoping to make the playoffs. I care that they drafted high for the better part of six years. I care that they wound up getting that team through the draft and got two HOFers in the top five.

Guess what, we thought we might make the playoffs this year. That's why we got Laine. Does that mean we're not rebuilding? No.

 

[junyab]

We're going to miss the playoffs for the 4th straight year which will be the 1st time in Habs history.

True, but the salary cap era didn't start until 2005 so it's less of a shocking stat than implied.

I agree with everyone else you said.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

And they succeeded despite this.

Again, I don't care if teams were trying to compete or not. At the end of the day the rebuild was forced upon them. And they succeeded despite themselves.

All the more reason to go the route Hughes did. Embrace it. Trade for picks/players. That's how we got Hutson.

I don't have to twist anything. They had a sustained period of drafting high and it resulted in them getting their best player who led them to a cup. They're a rebuild, full stop.

Who cares? It doesn't change anything here.

I don't care if they were hoping to make the playoffs. I care that they drafted high for the better part of six years. I care that they wound up getting that team through the draft and got two HOFers in the top five.

So we're back to my original point. The world rebuilding is absolutely meaningless because every team rebuilds, whether they actually know it or not. Being intentional doesn't matter. It makes the discussion worthless I guess.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

It's insane to try to argue that Tampa didn't rebuild. Stamkos and Hedman are two HOFers. Kucherov came from a lucky draft pick but he was still drafted during that period as well.

They had prime Marty and Vinny and made moves to try and win, they weren't trying to rebuild they were just bad

 

[Spring in Fialta]

They had prime Marty and Vinny and made moves to try and win, they weren't trying to rebuild they were just bad

Yeah, trying to argue that the Lightning rebuild is just bonkers. They actively tried not to!

 

[junyab]

You can be in a rebuild and make some non-rebuild moves. A rebuild doesn't have to be defined by every move reflecting it.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

So we're back to my original point. The world rebuilding is absolutely meaningless because every team rebuilds, whether they actually know it or not. Being intentional doesn't matter. It makes the discussion worthless I guess.

Every team does not draft high. Many teams trade picks and it results in them treading water for years. That's how the Leafs did it (they traded away the pick that resulted in Neidermayer) the Islanders consistently traded away high picks and prospects... and the Canadiens didn't draft high for thirty years. We only wound up with a top five pick via a one time lottery and he just happened to turn into a HOFer.

So no... they're not all the same.

Some teams go kicking and screaming into a rebuild but do it nonetheless. I'd argue it's way better to do it intentionally because you are actively trading for picks/prospects and can help accelerate things.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

They had prime Marty and Vinny and made moves to try and win, they weren't trying to rebuild they were just bad

It doesn't matter.

They drafted high for six years. That's a rebuild no matter how you slice it.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

It doesn't matter.

They drafted high for six years. That's a rebuild no matter how you slice it.

Sure, define it however you want, it's just not comparable to our rebuild

 

[Spring in Fialta]

You can be in a rebuild and make some non-rebuild moves. A rebuild doesn't have to be defined by every move reflecting it.

I'd argue that every significant Habs move has been reflected a rebuild move since HuGo was hired. Laine two months ago is the only single move that could be argued that it wasn't.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

I'd argue that every significant Habs move has been reflected a rebuild move since HuGo was hired. Laine two months ago is the only single move that could be argued that it wasn't.

I think the Laine trade still fits rebuild MO, Harris for an early 2nd is great value for him, and even if Laine stinks up the joint for 2 years his contract is up when our 5 year suck period is up too