The state of the Habs Rebuild - The Next step

What note you give to Kent Hughes' Rebuild? ?

  • A

    Votes: 209 49.8%
  • B

    Votes: 154 36.7%
  • C

    Votes: 43 10.2%
  • D

    Votes: 5 1.2%
  • E

    Votes: 2 0.5%
  • F

    Votes: 11 2.6%

  • Total voters
    420

Lafleurs Guy

Guuuuuuuy!
Jul 20, 2007
78,640
50,052
empty or heavily biased criticism is useless regardless of rebuild status... There's a big difference between critique and mindless emotional ranting.

That's apparently hard for some to understand no matter how many times their hot takes prove baseless or refuted over time... As the Slaf thread last season "should" have taught some.
The reality is that some players won’t pan out. It’s unfortunate but true.

Dach was pretty blue chip before his injury but now has struggled to come back. And… maybe he never will. I don’t think that’s the case but it’s possible. Likewise Newhook looked good last year but had injury problems.

This year the whole club is off. I’d attribute it to the system but who knows? It doesn’t change the big picture though. The team is still well positioned for the future. We may have some holes we didn’t expect- 2nd line center for example - but our Laval players are killing it, Demidov, Hage and RB are on the way… still a great place to be.

We’re not even a quarter into the season yet. Let’s see where it goes. Still lots of time for guys like Dach and Newhook to find their game.
 

teamfirst

Registered User
Oct 28, 2016
3,884
2,553
empty or heavily biased criticism is useless regardless of rebuild status... There's a big difference between critique and mindless emotional ranting.

That's apparently hard for some to understand no matter how many times their hot takes prove baseless or refuted over time... As the Slaf thread last season "should" have taught some.

That's the thing tho with opinions no matter how much YOU think that they're baseless or that you refuted them doesn't mean that you're right......it still just your opinion.
 
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LaP

Registered User
Jun 27, 2012
26,224
20,508
Quebec City, Canada
That's the thing tho with opinions no matter how much YOU think that they're baseless or that you refuted them doesn't mean that you're right......it still just your opinion.
I'm lost. So basically if you successfully refute an "opinion" with facts that "opinion" might still be right? Are you a flat earth believer?

An opinion is saying i dislike The Tree of Life or i like Avengers: Endgame. Or i prefer the color blue. Those are opinions. They usually can't be refuted because well they are opinions.

It's okay to not like Slaf as a player. But he is a good prospect. There's only 66 players in NHL history who did 50+ points as a 19 years old and easily half of them became very good players and that's not an opinion that's quantifiable.
 

HuGo Sham

MR. CLEAN-up ©Runner77
Apr 7, 2010
28,638
20,975
Montreal
I'm lost. So basically if you successfully refute an "opinion" with facts that "opinion" might still be right? Are you a flat earth believer?

An opinion is saying i dislike The Tree of Life or i like Avengers: Endgame. Or i prefer the color blue. Those are opinions. They usually can't be refuted because well they are opinions.

It's okay to not like Slaf as a player. But he is a good prospect. There's only 66 players in NHL history who did 50+ points as a 19 years old and easily half of them became very good players and that's not an opinion that's quantifiable.
random Terrence Malick shoutout
 

habamillions

Registered User
Jul 9, 2009
4,687
1,495
Ottawa
I give it a B+. He was put in a really tough spot with terrible contracts like gally,andy and armia. Like his drafting for the most part especially last year. Only thing i havent liked is the picks of reinbacher and mesar. Hope they work out in the future but right now looks like a miss, but still early in there careers
 
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themilosh

Registered User
Sponsor
Apr 27, 2015
3,192
2,682
Oakville, ON
I give it a B+. He was put in a really tough spot with terrible contracts like gally,andy and armia. Like his drafting for the most part especially last year. Only thing i havent liked is the picks of reinbacher and mesar. Hope they work out in the future but right now looks like a miss, but still early in there careers
Imo the only big mistake Hugo made was drafting Mesar, what a complete whiff that was.. lol

While i (too) wanted Michkov i completely understood (and accepted) the Reinbacher selection, and am prepared to give him another 2 years (this year and next) to establish himself.. it makes sense to acquire a RHD.. a badly needed position for every NHL team: scarcity = value.

I'd love to use CC acquire a legit 2RD.. i know this is unpopular, but im simply not a fan of his game.. it's clear hugo knew if they selected Michkov then CC had to go, you cannot have two small wingers in your top 6.
 

Lafleurs Guy

Guuuuuuuy!
Jul 20, 2007
78,640
50,052
I'm lost. So basically if you successfully refute an "opinion" with facts that "opinion" might still be right? Are you a flat earth believer?

An opinion is saying i dislike The Tree of Life or i like Avengers: Endgame. Or i prefer the color blue. Those are opinions. They usually can't be refuted because well they are opinions.

It's okay to not like Slaf as a player. But he is a good prospect. There's only 66 players in NHL history who did 50+ points as a 19 years old and easily half of them became very good players and that's not an opinion that's quantifiable.
Similarly, it’s fine to argue that you don’t want a rebuild. But when you say that rebuilds don’t work, it’s just factually wrong.

Rebuilding isn’t a guarantee- but nothing is. The vast majority of cup winners are rebuilds. That doesn’t mean that if you rebuild you’ll win a cup though.
 
Last edited:

teamfirst

Registered User
Oct 28, 2016
3,884
2,553
I'm lost. So basically if you successfully refute an "opinion" with facts that "opinion" might still be right? Are you a flat earth believer?

An opinion is saying i dislike The Tree of Life or i like Avengers: Endgame. Or i prefer the color blue. Those are opinions. They usually can't be refuted because well they are opinions.

It's okay to not like Slaf as a player. But he is a good prospect. There's only 66 players in NHL history who did 50+ points as a 19 years old and easily half of them became very good players and that's not an opinion that's quantifiable.

Was not talking about Slaf, where did you take that, i,m one of the few around here who wanted Hugo to draft him 1st overall and still think he will be a great player, reading or comprehension problem maybe
 

Miller Time

Registered User
Sep 16, 2004
24,315
17,194
That's the thing tho with opinions no matter how much YOU think that they're baseless or that you refuted them doesn't mean that you're right......it still just your opinion.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
- Jeff Lebowski
 
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HuGort

Registered User
Jun 15, 2012
21,662
10,648
Nova Scotia
Barron hasn't even played 100 games... nothing is stalled there. Injuries have sucked, no question about it. Newhook I don't see as a core player. He's a guy who provides depth scoring.

Dach's a different story. He looked awesome and set up to be our number 2 (maybe even number one) but injuries have totally disrupted things. This is a make or break in terms of relying on him for that role and we're using him on the wing. It sucks but 2nd line center could well be an open question by the time this year's over. Still early, still lots of time for Dach to find his game but...
I've seen Dach mail it in at times. Could be not fully over injuries I don't know. If he doesn't make it as #2 center going to push rebuild back.

Newhook should be better. He had good college career and has speed and hands. Barron has good raw skills but lacks decision making. Tries to do too much at times and gets into trouble.

Matheson played his best game this season against Colombus. He probably should been traded last deadline or in summer coming off career year. Likely lost value since. Likewise Anderson couple years back. Regardless of return, I just want the 5 million caphit back. Caproom could be tight next summer if Hughes fixes his defense. Habs need size yes, but tough fourth liner shouldn't be hard to replace him with.
 

ReHabs

Registered User
Sponsor
Jan 18, 2022
8,139
12,494
Imo the only big mistake Hugo made was drafting Mesar, what a complete whiff that was.. lol
He's made other mistakes. I think betting on a skill player with a first round pick is generally fine tbh.
While i (too) wanted Michkov i completely understood (and accepted) the Reinbacher selection, and am prepared to give him another 2 years (this year and next) to establish himself.. it makes sense to acquire a RHD.. a badly needed position for every NHL team: scarcity = value.
Fully agree. I was sanguine about the Reinbacher pick because it seemed the organization was completely convinced of it.
I'd love to use CC acquire a legit 2RD.. i know this is unpopular, but im simply not a fan of his game.. it's clear hugo knew if they selected Michkov then CC had to go, you cannot have two small wingers in your top 6.
They bet on the bird in hand (CC + Reinbacher) over the one in bush (MM). It makes sense from a team building POV even if it is extremely frustrating to think about Michkov getting better and better. He's already outproducing Cooley and Slafkovsky ffs.
 

Sorinth

Registered User
Jan 18, 2013
11,599
6,242
I'm not even sure what a rebuild even is at this point. No matter what happens, someone will assuredly say it's par for the course of a rebuild.

I think I understand what you mean by 'safety nets and harnesses', but then I think about it, and I don't understand it at all.

They're young players, sure, but criticism of their performance and (lack of) developing of their game is -- in my humble opinion -- par for the course in sports talk no matter the 'phase' a sport organization's lifecycle. What does a rebuild have to do with it? We were upset at Kotkaniemi's poor development and Galchenyuk's poor development and Kostitsyn's before him.

Do expectations change for individual young players within a 'rebuild' phase and any other phase...? We expect them to (1) grow and (2) fulfil their potential no matter the quality of the roster or the intentions of the organization. Dach's growth is off-track, it shouldn't take those "actively looking for a reason to be miserable" to say so. Newhook seems to be what he is, no growth, and he's having a terrible season. I don't understand why we have to accept that a rebuild gives carte blanche to dismiss everything and expect the organization to sit idly while individual players stink it up. A rebuild gives every excuse to shake things and keep only the best... because they're not beholden to keeping a "winning team" together!

If players are floundering, no matter their age, they could be jettisoned and churned over. Thankfully Hughes intimated as much in his recent remarks. My point is we shouldn't shrug and say "they're young, they have potential, be patient" about individual players -- the roster overall, sure, but individual players need to grow up and show something and if they don't, they're not worth defending.
Wasn't this the exact logic you used to bash Slaf for a year and a half, before he broke out and you said you learnt your lesson and would be more patient?
 
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ReHabs

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Jan 18, 2022
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Wasn't this the exact logic you used to bash Slaf for a year and a half, before he broke out and you said you learnt your lesson and would be more patient?
To what logic are you referring? I don't know what you mean exactly.

Almost all of my commentary on Slaf was based on my real fear his development was going the wrong direction - his play and production his first season didn't discourage me. Obviously I argued excessively but I had a lot of willing argument partners. I criticised his performance in the NHL with the lens that he shouldn't be rushed to the NHL and burnt like other Habs draftees before him. I got it wrong and he didn't get burnt. The lessons I learned, and still believe, are as follows: 1) not every player is made the same, 2) 1OAs are especially unique and therefore should have more faith placed in them, and 3) don't pin the sins of the old management onto the current one.

Summary: If Player X struggled, it does not mean Player Y will struggle in the same or similar circumstances.

In addition, there's a fourth lesson: don't be so negative to insist that negative things will happen. That's just being a jerk. I was being a jerk.

None of this has anything to do with discussing and evaluating the performances of players today. I was wrong to be so sure that Slaf is going in the wrong direction, but that's got nought to do with chatting hockey and performances on a day-to-day basis. It was silly of me to use the day to day to insist there is a negative and long trend for Slaf.

Re: the elements of the rebuild. Commentators are neither wrong nor using faulty logic when they observe that Dach and Newhook are playing badly and not producing in the roles they were given. "Be more patient" is a strange response to someone's observation that these players are playing like ass today and part of the reason this season has gone sideways.
 

Lafleurs Guy

Guuuuuuuy!
Jul 20, 2007
78,640
50,052
I've seen Dach mail it in at times. Could be not fully over injuries I don't know. If he doesn't make it as #2 center going to push rebuild back.
Not necessarily. It may be a role where we just trade for an established player. That would preserve the timeline.
Newhook should be better. He had good college career and has speed and hands. Barron has good raw skills but lacks decision making. Tries to do too much at times and gets into trouble.
He was good last year. Shown glimpses of what he can do this year. Agree that he should be better.

But he’s secondary scoring anyway.
Matheson played his best game this season against Colombus. He probably should been traded last deadline or in summer coming off career year. Likely lost value since. Likewise Anderson couple years back. Regardless of return, I just want the 5 million caphit back. Caproom could be tight next summer if Hughes fixes his defense. Habs need size yes, but tough fourth liner shouldn't be hard to replace him with.
I’d have moved him. I agree he needs to go.
 

Mrb1p

PRICERSTOPDAPUCK
Dec 10, 2011
91,827
58,923
Citizen of the world
I'm lost. So basically if you successfully refute an "opinion" with facts that "opinion" might still be right? Are you a flat earth believer?

An opinion is saying i dislike The Tree of Life or i like Avengers: Endgame. Or i prefer the color blue. Those are opinions. They usually can't be refuted because well they are opinions.

It's okay to not like Slaf as a player. But he is a good prospect. There's only 66 players in NHL history who did 50+ points as a 19 years old and easily half of them became very good players and that's not an opinion that's quantifiable.
Are the facts in the thread with us?
 

Sorinth

Registered User
Jan 18, 2013
11,599
6,242
To what logic are you referring? I don't know what you mean exactly.

Almost all of my commentary on Slaf was based on my real fear his development was going the wrong direction - his play and production his first season didn't discourage me. Obviously I argued excessively but I had a lot of willing argument partners. I criticised his performance in the NHL with the lens that he shouldn't be rushed to the NHL and burnt like other Habs draftees before him. I got it wrong and he didn't get burnt. The lessons I learned, and still believe, are as follows: 1) not every player is made the same, 2) 1OAs are especially unique and therefore should have more faith placed in them, and 3) don't pin the sins of the old management onto the current one.

Summary: If Player X struggled, it does not mean Player Y will struggle in the same or similar circumstances.

In addition, there's a fourth lesson: don't be so negative to insist that negative things will happen. That's just being a jerk. I was being a jerk.

None of this has anything to do with discussing and evaluating the performances of players today. I was wrong to be so sure that Slaf is going in the wrong direction, but that's got nought to do with chatting hockey and performances on a day-to-day basis. It was silly of me to use the day to day to insist there is a negative and long trend for Slaf.

Re: the elements of the rebuild. Commentators are neither wrong nor using faulty logic when they observe that Dach and Newhook are playing badly and not producing in the roles they were given. "Be more patient" is a strange response to someone's observation that these players are playing like ass today and part of the reason this season has gone sideways.
You were quick to jump to the conclusion that Slaf was off track, wasn't developing, and that it was a serious problem with the pick and management and that you were justified to criticize him rather then be patient with him. You are doing the same with Dach & Newhook, yes they are having unproductive seasons, but like with Slaf's rookie year, an unproductive year doesn't automatically equate to being off track, or not developing, nor should you dismiss calls for being patient with young guys because it's perfectly normal for young guys to struggle. The ones who succeed go through those struggles and in time figure things out and emerge, the ones who bust go through those struggles and don't eventually figure it out. But either way we should be patient and give them the time they need to figure things out.
 
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WeThreeKings

Demidov is a HAB
Sep 19, 2006
95,557
106,963
Halifax
Imo the only big mistake Hugo made was drafting Mesar, what a complete whiff that was.. lol

While i (too) wanted Michkov i completely understood (and accepted) the Reinbacher selection, and am prepared to give him another 2 years (this year and next) to establish himself.. it makes sense to acquire a RHD.. a badly needed position for every NHL team: scarcity = value.

I'd love to use CC acquire a legit 2RD.. i know this is unpopular, but im simply not a fan of his game.. it's clear hugo knew if they selected Michkov then CC had to go, you cannot have two small wingers in your top 6.

1731935116862.png
 
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Naslundforever

43-67-110
Aug 21, 2015
4,222
5,026
What’s this “they will be good in 26-27” BS in this thread? That’s completely fabricated; all we know is habs suck and we can hope the guys they drafted are even able to play in the nhl somewhere down the line, never mind being good. Everything is yet to manifest, including with 90% of the hab current roster players. It’s all hope and no results; there is no magic 2026 switch.

Will be watching Laval with interest..
 

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