Prospect Info: The Second Overall Pick Thread: Part IV (Kakko/Hughes Talk)

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Actually, all I had to do was a 10 second search of your post history to read about the stuff with Matthews and Laine.

It read similar to the old "Prucha is better than Crosby" line on here from back in the day. If you want to feel important that I spent all of 10 seconds looking through your post history, that's your prerogative. But it showed an implicit bias for Finnish players. Again, I am simply not sure why you're going through the effort of denigrating Hughes for the sake of propping Kakko up. Rangers fans are not doing that, by and large, even though we realize that we are likely getting Kakko. Devils fans are not doing that, by and large, even though most of them want Hughes.

So why are you doing it? What are you gaining from essentially denigrating a player to prop another up? I don't understand this nationalistic standpoint at all.

It’s a valid question. I’m a huge fan of Kakko and have been for 2 years. I remember fans and Reunanen (who was a healthy scratch when I attended a game and sat close to me) saying to keep an eye on Kakko and he was fun to watch. But I still consider Hughes the higher ranked prospect despite not picking him if it was up to me. It’s similar to Kravtsov last year who I liked more than Wahlstrom even though he wasn’t necessarily better. Why is it so hard for some to have a preference without completely ruining debates by letting that preference result in this downplaying of others?

I wonder if there are a bunch of my fellow countrymen who jumped from the Penguins to the Ducks just because of Sprong...

 

[kelsier]

Actually, all I had to do was a 10 second search of your post history to read about the stuff with Matthews and Laine.

It read similar to the old "Prucha is better than Crosby" line on here from back in the day. If you want to feel important that I spent all of 10 seconds looking through your post history, that's your prerogative. But it showed an implicit bias for Finnish players. Again, I am simply not sure why you're going through the effort of denigrating Hughes for the sake of propping Kakko up. Rangers fans are not doing that, by and large, even though we realize that we are likely getting Kakko. Devils fans are not doing that, by and large, even though most of them want Hughes.

So why are you doing it? What are you gaining from essentially denigrating a player to prop another up? I don't understand this nationalistic standpoint at all.

Yeah I stood behind Laine 100% that's no news flash to anyone who's into prospects and lived through those days in the HFBoards. Then again why wouldn't I had been? He lead his team to the Cup in the FEL and continued with a tremendous WHC tournament. I was more right about him than most people (who hated him). After all if I were to believe any of the things said about him, he wouldn't have been able to score against NHL level goal keepers, wouldn't have been able to play in the small rinks, too slow if what not. Yet how many players can you remember that have over 100 goals scored after their first 3 seasons (starting as an 18 year old)? How many players have finished top 5 in the entire league in GPG at age 18? I'll give you a hint. Starts with L and ends with E.

Even I admitted Matthews was the better player this year, but I don't think for a minute that the competition is over as far as the two of them are concerned. Laine was injured the entire year and eventually lost interest thanks to Maurice having learned nothing about last past years, so his circumstances were far from ideal as far as last season was concerned. He's finally going to include on ice training in the summer work schedule and that may just have a bigger impact than expected. Anyhow, at least Matthews and Laine had a real rivalry in their rookie campaign and he only lost at the very end. Of course losing 9 games didn't help either. I still stand behind what I said about Laine and I have absolutely no regrets there. He's going to be a heck of a pleyer (already is though) and I still have full faith in him.

I just don't see anything similar from Kakko and Hughes, the latter would have to improve drastically over the summer where as Kakko would have to basically stall his development to have Hughes compete him for the Calder.

 

[kelsier]

It’s a valid question. I’m a huge fan of Kakko and have been for 2 years. I remember fans and Reunanen (who was a healthy scratch when I attended a game and sat close to me) saying to keep an eye on Kakko and he was fun to watch. But I still consider Hughes the higher ranked prospect despite not picking him if it was up to me. It’s similar to Kravtsov last year who I liked more than Wahlstrom even though he wasn’t necessarily better. Why is it so hard for some to have a preference without completely ruining debates by letting that preference result in this downplaying of others?

I wonder if there are a bunch of my fellow countrymen who jumped from the Penguins to the Ducks just because of Sprong...

I think fans tend to be a little bit too sentimental. I mean just have a look what sparked this up. I wasn't even insulting Hughes and I think the worst thing I said was something like which highly touted first overall didn't have at least average impact in his first year in the league and immediately after couple of people just flipped.

I haven't partaken in the whole debate much at all to be honest. Whatever I've said I've said here as opposed to the main boards. If someone here disagrees or sees differently than I do that's fine. I mean after all, if people didn't have different perspectives, we wouldn't even be here today.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I think fans tend to be a little bit too sentimental. I mean just have a look what sparked this up. I wasn't even insulting Hughes and I think the worst thing I said was something like which highly touted first overall didn't have at least average impact in his first year in the league and immediately after couple of people just flipped.

I haven't partaken in the whole debate much at all to be honest. Whatever I've said I've said here as opposed to the main boards. If someone here disagrees or sees differently than I do that's fine. I mean after all, if people didn't have different perspectives, we wouldn't even be here today.

The problem with your post is that you hold it against Hughes that he hasn't played against professionals, when he cannot change that in any way. I am a firm believer of the QoO standpoint and I feel performance against professionals holds more value but at the same time you cannot hold it against a player if he is committed to the US NTDP.

McDavid, Ekblad, Stamkos, Tavares, Hall, Svechnikov, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, Jones. Just some examples of players who played against juniors because that's the path they committed to.

Eichel played against college kids. Hughes being with the US NTDP also played against college kids for large portions of the season.

Then there are the Europeans who played against professionals simply because that's how the system works here in Europe. Dahlin, Kotkaniemi, Barkov to name a few. And Auston Matthews is the anomaly. He was only allowed to play in Europe because of his early birthday and the fact that he turned 18 so early in the season. There was an exception made for him. Hughes couldn't use that "loophole" simply because he was too young. That's not his fault. Yet you make it sound like it is. As if Hughes had alternatives to playing for the US NTDP.

Kakko is my no 1 this draft purely because of what I want to see in a player. But Hughes will, and should, still go 1st overall simply because he has not played bad enough to drop to 2. I can say that with a straight face, without sarcasm. And I can validate my support for Kakko without belittling Hughes and his performance. It doesn't have to be black or white.

 

[nyr2k2]

Most of them were good posters, though.

They were, for sure, because they were hockey fans that then became Zucc fans and started following our team. They were generally all knowledgeable and passionate. We had a few, though, who literally only wanted to talk about Zucc before/during/after each game, which was kind of tiring.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Well said in both of these posts, AK. It's a shame that this is lost on some.

It’s a valid question. I’m a huge fan of Kakko and have been for 2 years. I remember fans and Reunanen (who was a healthy scratch when I attended a game and sat close to me) saying to keep an eye on Kakko and he was fun to watch. But I still consider Hughes the higher ranked prospect despite not picking him if it was up to me. It’s similar to Kravtsov last year who I liked more than Wahlstrom even though he wasn’t necessarily better. Why is it so hard for some to have a preference without completely ruining debates by letting that preference result in this downplaying of others?

I wonder if there are a bunch of my fellow countrymen who jumped from the Penguins to the Ducks just because of Sprong...

The problem with your post is that you hold it against Hughes that he hasn't played against professionals, when he cannot change that in any way. I am a firm believer of the QoO standpoint and I feel performance against professionals holds more value but at the same time you cannot hold it against a player if he is committed to the US NTDP.

McDavid, Ekblad, Stamkos, Tavares, Hall, Svechnikov, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, Jones. Just some examples of players who played against juniors because that's the path they committed to.

Eichel played against college kids. Hughes being with the US NTDP also played against college kids for large portions of the season.

Then there are the Europeans who played against professionals simply because that's how the system works here in Europe. Dahlin, Kotkaniemi, Barkov to name a few. And Auston Matthews is the anomaly. He was only allowed to play in Europe because of his early birthday and the fact that he turned 18 so early in the season. There was an exception made for him. Hughes couldn't use that "loophole" simply because he was too young. That's not his fault. Yet you make it sound like it is. As if Hughes had alternatives to playing for the US NTDP.

Kakko is my no 1 this draft purely because of what I want to see in a player. But Hughes will, and should, still go 1st overall simply because he has not played bad enough to drop to 2. I can say that with a straight face, without sarcasm. And I can validate my support for Kakko without belittling Hughes and his performance. It doesn't have to be black or white.

 

[kelsier]

The problem with your post is that you hold it against Hughes that he hasn't played against professionals, when he cannot change that in any way. I am a firm believer of the QoO standpoint and I feel performance against professionals holds more value but at the same time you cannot hold it against a player if he is committed to the US NTDP.

McDavid, Ekblad, Stamkos, Tavares, Hall, Svechnikov, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, Jones. Just some examples of players who played against juniors because that's the path they committed to.

Eichel played against college kids. Hughes being with the US NTDP also played against college kids for large portions of the season.

Then there are the Europeans who played against professionals simply because that's how the system works here in Europe. Dahlin, Kotkaniemi, Barkov to name a few. And Auston Matthews is the anomaly. He was only allowed to play in Europe because of his early birthday and the fact that he turned 18 so early in the season. There was an exception made for him. Hughes couldn't use that "loophole" simply because he was too young. That's not his fault. Yet you make it sound like it is. As if Hughes had alternatives to playing for the US NTDP.

Kakko is my no 1 this draft purely because of what I want to see in a player. But Hughes will, and should, still go 1st overall simply because he has not played bad enough to drop to 2. I can say that with a straight face, without sarcasm. And I can validate my support for Kakko without belittling Hughes and his performance. It doesn't have to be black or white.

No I don't hold it against him and I never said anything of the kind. I only commented on what someone said about Hughes having already played against "grownups". I never even blamed him for not "upping the competition" and I've heard a lot people present this question/fact before. Of course there's a longer list of players coming into the draft having played against teenagers than professionals than the other way around. No thanks to the population in Finland & Sweden. Russia is another entity of it's own and juniors there rarely break it to the KHL before they are drafted. Then there's the Eastern Europe, Germany, Switzerland and so on, but the quality of hockey programmes isn't that great which directly reflects back on the end products. Still it's Canada and US that still produce most of the elite talents and I don't see this changing. What I am glad though is that the quality of top end prospects coming out of Finland has really grown lately. In a few years we'll have quite a formidable group of hockey players.

Again, I don't know how your head works so I cannot help but wonder why you've come to these conclusions. Unless you think being inferior to a peer is somehow someone's fault. Of course I'm not denying it wasn't an advantage for Kakko to play in FEL rather than waste a year in the juniors, as otherwise he wouldn't have been as ready. It's impossible to tell how "great" he would have made it in the Worlds otherwise. Still I was really surprised that the gap between the two was as large as it was. My concern with Hughes is that he probably isn't going to grow much anymore (which neither is his fault). His height growth might have stalled already, really tough to tell. Kakko is unlikely to get much taller either but he's going to pick up a lot of weight because he's bulkier by nature and that's just one more reason more to have him ahead (feel free to disagree). Hughes will always be the better skater though or at least faster, but at the end of the day I don't think it's going to tip the scales the other way around. Remember how Drouin was dominating juniors back in his draft year by the way and how flashy he looked? It really woke me up when he didn't turn out as advertised. Not that it has much to do with Hughes, but rather how great one kid can look up to against his peers without having too much of a meaning.

I watched both of them play in the U18s last year and I honestly after the tournament was over and done with I thought to myself Kakko is going to be the first player walking on the podium come next summer, he was simply that good. Then again Hughes won the MVP and finished with the most points (while looking almost just as good), so obviously despite of not getting the gold he got most of the recognition. Naturally I was wise enough to keep my opinions to myself at the time because people here would've just laughed.

I've always been a huge fan of Forsberg and Kakko is the one prospect that really remind me of him. He could truly have a similar potential if everything goes according to plan, so it's really difficult to have anyone ahead of him especially in this draft (with no McDavids). No offence to Hughes fans out there. I'm sure he's going to be a star too one day, but right now it looks to be Kakko and for me it's not that close. Of course we could both turn out wrong and someone from the later rounds ends up as the BPA in the end, everything is possible.

 

[Edge]

The reality is that both kids performed in a way that is very rare, if not unprecedented, for teenagers in their respective situations.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Small American kid bad. Big Finnish kid good.

 

[Miamipuck]

So when we get Kakko, are we going to experience the "Zucarrelo effect" and have to deal with that forever? I ****ing hope not...

Bro get ready for it we're going to have Webster times 10, it's coming.

It's going to be like that huge ass needle the Dr. breaks out and says, "now this won't hurt a bit".

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Bro get ready for it we're going to have Webster times 10, it's coming.

It's going to be like that huge ass needle the Dr. breaks out and says, "now this won't hurt a bit".

The only advantage if we do pick Kakko is that we won't have to pimp our own draft pick and make up all kinds of reasons why he's way better than the first overall draft pick (and then also mock the team that took someone over him if the guy ends up busting). We will have an army to do that for us.

 

[EdJovanovski]

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

All well and good, but only one of those teams matters

 

[NoQuitInNewMexico]

He said Rangers first!

 

[Edge]

He said Rangers first!

Pure speculation, but I think if you gave Hughes the choice, he’d pick the Rangers and wouldn’t even think twice.

 

[McRanger]

Pure speculation, but I think if you gave Hughes the choice, he’d pick the Rangers and wouldn’t even think twice.

Who wouldn’t?

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Pure speculation, but I think if you gave Hughes the choice, he’d pick the Rangers and wouldn’t even think twice.

I just had a thought: if the Rangers end up getting Hughes, do they still try to trade up into the top 10 or so?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

He said Rangers first!

He knows where he’d rather go.

 

[Edge]

I just had a thought: if the Rangers end up getting Hughes, do they still try to trade up into the top 10 or so?

I think it’s still on the radar, but the target changes. I think that’s a scenario where potentially a winger or a defenseman becomes the target. It’s also a situation where getting into the top 10 maybe isn’t as crucial to the plan.

 

[Polar Bear]

I think it’s still on the radar, but the target changes. I think that’s a scenario where potentially a winger or a defenseman becomes the target. It’s also a situation where getting into the top 10 maybe isn’t as crucial to the plan.

Since we're getting Kakko, do you think the Rangers are going to specifically target a position in our attempts to move up that's not a winger, or will they still go BPA in that trade up?

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Since we're getting Kakko, do you think the Rangers are going to specifically target a position in our attempts to move up that's not a winger, or will they still go BPA in that trade up?

Well if they get in the top 10, there will be a very high chance of a center being the BPA.

 

[Edge]

Since we're getting Kakko, do you think the Rangers are going to specifically target a position in our attempts to move up that's not a winger, or will they still go BPA in that trade up?

The talk was that the Rangers liked some forwards in the range they were originally slotted to draft. I’d heard they liked Cozens, there was rumors they liked Zegras.

At one point, it was said that they wanted a high scoring forward, which was interpreted to mean goals. Seeing as Caufield was in their recent video, he could be very high on their list.

I think the Rangers have a very clear idea of guys they’d want earlier in the first, and guys they’d want later.

For example, if they get a higher pick, I could see guys like Cozens, Zegras, and Caufield being on that short list.

If they’re looking later, I could see guys like Suzuki and Seider being there.

There are some wild cards that I’m not as sure where to place - Broberg, Newhook, Krebs.

 

[Polar Bear]

The talk was that the Rangers liked some forwards in the range they were originally slotted to draft. I’d heard they liked Cozens, there was rumors they liked Zegras.

At one point, it was said that they wanted a high scoring forward, which was interpreted to mean goals. Seeing as Caufield was in their recent video, he could be very high on their list.

I think the Rangers have a very clear idea of guys they’d want earlier in the first, and guys they’d want later.

For example, if they get a higher pick, I could see guys like Cozens, Zegras, and Caufield being on that short list.

If they’re looking later, I could see guys like Suzuki and Seider being there.

There are some wild cards that I’m not as sure where to place - Broberg, Newhook, Krebs.

They are going to have to get into the top 8/10 to get Caufield/Cozens/Zegras and the price to move is up going to be costly. Can't really see them as realistic candidates to move up. I'm fine with Suzuki or Seider though.

 

[Edge]

They are going to have to get into the top 8/10 to get Caufield/Cozens/Zegras and the price to move is up going to be costly. Can't really see them as realistic candidates to move up. I'm fine with Suzuki or Seider though.

We keep saying that, and then there’s a list of players who are supposed risers or that teams have in the top ten.

Caufield has been talked about as anywhere from the third pick to the teens, Zegras anywhere from 3 to 12.

I’d dare say that outside of Hughes and Kakko, there are no less than 13 names that could be called in the top 10. And that means at least 5 of them won’t be.

I don’t think the Rangers inherently have to be in the top 10 to get someone they really like. Obviously it helps, but I think the key is to be within striking distance of a guy who falls just outside the top 10. The end result could be getting to 14 before the draft and then if need be, standing pat or even sliding up a few slots.

 

[Miamipuck]

The only advantage if we do pick Kakko is that we won't have to pimp our own draft pick and make up all kinds of reasons why he's way better than the first overall draft pick (and then also mock the team that took someone over him if the guy ends up busting). We will have an army to do that for us.

Devils fans have no idea what they're in for if that happens.

Hughes is fantastic, I have no idea why people need to do the mental gymnastics required to make it look like it's crazy to consider him a #1 overall prospect.

Like your guy, have at it, we get the national pride thing. However the constant bagging on Hughes nonsense is getting old.