The Roster Thread, Summer 2024

[Doug Prishpreed]

Again, I need to check my coffee because I agree with you. It anchors Dahlin into carrying the defensive load for his pair. And they could do that if they put him with the Clague/Bryson/Gilberts of the world for a lot less money.

I don't see a good defenseman with Jokiharju. His processing is slower than many and his handling in pressure situations is often bobbled. And his positional play... losing himself in space around the crease and slot is infuriating for a guy who is now his age. Goes for the stick when the body is the right play, winds up on the wrong side of his check and doesn't deny hands, and that topper or regularly drifting out too far and leaving his partner handling everything in front.

Bleh.

He seems to very slowly be getting better defensively, but still hasn't elevated to being a reliable player on the 2nd pair yet; Ruff may be able to give him a simplified role (a la Torts with Risto), which could make him look serviceable in the 3rd pairing role? I know you previously said you don't see that happening, but I feel like the team might be hanging their hat on that happening.

 

[elchud]

It appears that the organizational plan is for Kulich/Rosen/RyJo/Levi to start the season in Rochester. The first three will have to knock the doors down to secure an NHL roster spot before the trade deadline. Greenway/Krebs/Joker/Zucker are all possible trade deadline moves if any of those three make us a better team or more competitive in getting the 8th seed or whatever.

I think they find a way for Levi to get games, for example if a defenseman goes on IR, he could get some taxi time.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

I like listening to them (along with a lot of other pods) so I can hear multiple perspectives........but gawd dammmmm, that would be bad.

You could hear Petey's boner growing as they were talking about it.

I do agree somewhat with their reasoning for wanting him. But the proposal was just laughable. To the point i think it was that bad just to get a reaction.

 

[Weltschmerz]

Mike Augello-The Hockey News/Off the post on wgr this morning:

Philly would be interested in Samuelsson in any deal for Farabee, does not see the Sabres making that deal

Ehlers would still be the best idea for top 6 but price is high

Good chance Levi starts in Roch


copy/paste for paywall please?

It's pretty much the stuff from the vid with Baker posted above.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

But that's only last season as far as I understand. My problem with Joki is he's just not good for me. So I'd like to see Kevyn traded for a guy like TVR, for example. He's an experienced, reliable and consistent defender. He'll improve his defense, improve our PK, and he won't cost a ton.

View attachment 894405View attachment 894406

We're talking about pairings not players in isolation, look at the pairings.

 

[Fjordy]

We're talking about pairings not players in isolation, look at the pairings.

View attachment 894496

Well, because it's Dahlin. I'm not interested in pairs, I'm talking specifically about the player as a separate combat unit. Joki not good, imo.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Again, I need to check my coffee because I agree with you. It anchors Dahlin into carrying the defensive load for his pair. And they could do that if they put him with the Clague/Bryson/Gilberts of the world for a lot less money.

I don't see a good defenseman with Jokiharju. His processing is slower than many and his handling in pressure situations is often bobbled. And his positional play... losing himself in space around the crease and slot is infuriating for a guy who is now his age. Goes for the stick when the body is the right play, winds up on the wrong side of his check and doesn't deny hands, and that topper or regularly drifting out too far and leaving his partner handling everything in front.

Bleh.

Then why does it work so well as a pairing? Unless you think the xG data over 700 minutes the last two years is meaningless.

We have 700+ minutes of Dahlin-Jokiharju being effective and 1200+ minutes of Power-Samuelsson being effective

There's 1200 minutes of Samuelsson-Dahlin being <50% xG, and almost 1000 minutes of Power-Jokiharju being sub-replacement level.

Those sample sizes deserve some respect. It's not possible DJ/PS were being protected for 2000 minutes over the last two years.

Well, because it's Dahlin. I'm not interested in pairs, I'm talking specifically about the player as a separate combat unit. Joki not good, imo.

For better or worse Hockey is very much a team game. If Dahlin-Jokharju are significantly better than Samuelsson-Dahlin there's no reason to play Samuelsson-Dahlin.

The same is also true of Power-Samuelsson vs Power-Jokiharju

 

[TheMistyStranger]

We're talking about pairings not players in isolation, look at the pairings.

View attachment 894496

The only thing I took away from this is other teams better look out for Buffalo's power-johnson

 

[Djp]

It appears that the organizational plan is for Kulich/Rosen/RyJo/Levi to start the season in Rochester. The first three will have to knock the doors down to secure an NHL roster spot before the trade deadline. Greenway/Krebs/Joker/Zucker are all possible trade deadline moves if any of those three make us a better team or more competitive in getting the 8th seed or whatever.

I think they find a way for Levi to get games, for example if a defenseman goes on IR, he could get some taxi time.

The problem is only Quinn has waiver exemption to Rochester if they want to call Levi up for say a gsmr in a 3 iin 4 or a n 4 in 6 stretch. Quinn has only so many games till he loses the exemption in 160 nhl games unless their roster operates as a 13/7/2 for thr season with a recall spot open they frequently use.

 

[Fjordy]

For better or worse Hockey is very much a team game. If Dahlin-Jokharju are significantly better than Samuelsson-Dahlin there's no reason to play Samuelsson-Dahlin.

The same is also true of Power-Samuelsson vs Power-Jokiharju

In the 22-23 season, our best pairing was Sammy - Dahlin, and Dahlin had his best season of his career. For me, that's more of an indicator. Jokiharju is not physical, he's not good in defense, he's not good in attack, he's not good on PK. That's obvious to me. Even Ruff said right away that he sees other players in a pairing with Dahlin, not Jokiharju.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

In the 22-23 season, our best pairing was Sammy - Dahlin, and Dahlin had his best season of his career. For me, that's more of an indicator. Jokiharju is not physical, he's not good in defense, he's not good in attack, he's not good on PK. That's obvious to me. Even Ruff said right away that he sees other players in a pairing with Dahlin, not Jokiharju.

Was it? It seems remarkably consistent with 22-23 and 23-24. Under 50%; significantly worse than Dahlin-Jokiharju and Power-Samuelsson.

The only thing I took away from this is other teams better look out for Buffalo's power-johnson

Yeah in limited protected deployment they were pretty good. Pretty sure that's R.Johnson not E.Johnson btw.

 

[Chainshot]

Then why does it work so well as a pairing? Unless you think the xG data over 700 minutes the last two years is meaningless.

We have 700+ minutes of Dahlin-Jokiharju being effective and 1200+ minutes of Power-Samuelsson being effective

There's 1200 minutes of Samuelsson-Dahlin being <50% xG, and almost 1000 minutes of Power-Jokiharju being sub-replacement level.

Those sample sizes deserve some respect. It's not possible DJ/PS were being protected for 2000 minutes over the last two years.



For better or worse Hockey is very much a team game. If Dahlin-Jokharju are significantly better than Samuelsson-Dahlin there's no reason to play Samuelsson-Dahlin.

The same is also true of Power-Samuelsson vs Power-Jokiharju

1200 minutes of Power-Samuelsson? Moneypuck has them 228.3 minutes combined over three years. The better pair - which I can go quote my posts from over a year ago - is that pairing because it covers for each players' weaknesses with Power's issues in defending around the net being something Samuelsson handles well but that was based on under 115 minutes two years back.

 

[Fjordy]

Was it? It seems remarkably consistent with 22-23 and 23-24. Under 50%; significantly worse than Dahlin-Jokiharju and Power-Samuelsson.

View attachment 894498



Yeah in limited protected deployment they were pretty good. Pretty sure that's R.Johnson not E.Johnson btw.

For me, yes, when I watched the games. The fact is, Joki's metrics bad.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

1200 minutes of Power-Samuelsson? Moneypuck has them 228.3 minutes combined over three years. The better pair - which I can go quote my posts from over a year ago - is that pairing because it covers for each players' weaknesses with Power's issues in defending around the net being something Samuelsson handles well but that was based on under 115 minutes two years back.

Yeah I messed up the PS total minutes. So their effectiveness could be chalked up to low sample size, but the sizes of DJ PJ DS are substantial.

 

[Chainshot]

Yeah I messed up the PS total minutes. So their effectiveness could be chalked up to low sample size, but the sizes of DJ PJ DS are substantial.

Agreed. I do not want Jokiharju anywhere near Power and vice versa.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

For me, yes, when I watched the games. The fact is, Joki's metrics bad.

Then why is Dahlin-Samuelsson consistently out played. They have 1100 minutes of sub 50% xG.

Agreed. I do not want Jokiharju anywhere near Power and vice versa.

At least everyone should agree on that. What I don't understand is why people think a <50% Dahlin-Samuelsson pairing is a great idea. They've been pedestrian over a long stretch the past two years.

No one's goal should be to turn Dahlin into a 50/50 possession player.

 

[Fjordy]

Then why is Dahlin-Samuelsson consistently out played. They have 1100 minutes of sub 50% xG.

I have no idea, I don't really understand all these graphs except Jfresh and Evolving. I just see the individual metrics of a player and you can at least understand what a player is good at and what he is not. Jokiharju is almost not good at anything. Even the fool Trouba can give a physical game and meanness and be a little better than Joki in attack. You also ignored Ruff's words that I wrote about.

 

[My Cozen Dylan]

Wondering how PHI would feel about Farabee+Zamula for Krebs+Rosen+Jokiharju:

Peterka - Thompson - Tuch
Farabee - Cozens - Quinn
Benson - McLeod - Zucker
Malenstyn - Lafferty - Greenway
x Aube-Kubel

Byram - Dahlin
Samuelsson - Power
Zamula - Clifton
x Gilbert/Bryson

 

[Washed Up 29YearOld]

The eye test confirms the analytics. Like Chain said HJ doesnt process plays under pressure quick enough. Not physical. He’s a pylon. Risto2.0. I might be wrong as I have been before but if he doesn’t have a strong first half of the season trade him with a 1st to a rebuilding team to upgrade to a better right D man ( under contract control preferably ) we won’t win a playoff series with him in the top 4 if he doesn’t improve

 

[MeenOlViks]

The eye test confirms the analytics. Like Chain said HJ doesnt process plays under pressure quick enough. Not physical. He’s a pylon. Risto2.0. I might be wrong as I have been before but if he doesn’t have a strong first half of the season trade him with a 1st to a rebuilding team to upgrade to a better right D man ( under contract control preferably ) we won’t win a playoff series with him in the top 4 if he doesn’t improve

Why would he be top 4 over Samuelson

 

[MOGlLNY]

Besides the obvious why I want the Sabres to be good. I’m hoping the Sabres are good this year because a lot of good opportunity for travel to away games on weekends.

Would be a ton of fun if the games meant something

 

[TehDoak]

Checking in with the front office

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

I have no idea, I don't really understand all these graphs except Jfresh and Evolving. I just see the individual metrics of a player and you can at least understand what a player is good at and what he is not. Jokiharju is almost not good at anything. Even the fool Trouba can give a physical game and meanness and be a little better than Joki in attack. You also ignored Ruff's words that I wrote about.

The eye test confirms the analytics. Like Chain said HJ doesnt process plays under pressure quick enough. Not physical. He’s a pylon. Risto2.0. I might be wrong as I have been before but if he doesn’t have a strong first half of the season trade him with a 1st to a rebuilding team to upgrade to a better right D man ( under contract control preferably ) we won’t win a playoff series with him in the top 4 if he doesn’t improve

Why would he be top 4 over Samuelson

This is the problem, the eye test and analytics are not at all aligned.

The analytics for Power-Jokiharju are terrible, just atrocious. The analytics for Dahlin-Jokiharju are quite good.

The analytics for Power-Samuelsson are quite good, the analytics for Samuelsson-Dahlin are not good.

Power and Jokiharju play a ton of minutes together, it drags both of their individual analytics down. If you split them up there are very attractive options where they look like good Top 4 players.

It's a goddamn team game, you put the team together to win, players who don't work together shouldn't be paired to the detriment of all. Individual score cards are great and all, but sometimes they don't tell the entire tale of a complicated interconnected team sport.

 

[Fjordy]

This is the problem, the eye test and analytics are not at all aligned.

The analytics for Power-Jokiharju are terrible, just atrocious. The analytics for Dahlin-Jokiharju are quite good.

The analytics for Power-Samuelsson are quite good, the analytics for Samuelsson-Dahlin are not good.

Power and Jokiharju play a ton of minutes together, it drags both of their individual analytics down. If you split them up there are very attractive options where they look like good Top 4 players.

It's a goddamn team game, you put the team together to win, players who don't work together shouldn't be paired to the detriment of all. Individual score cards are great and all, but sometimes they don't tell the entire tale of a complicated interconnected team sport.

We have at least four defensemen who are better than Jokiharju, although I think Clifton will be better on the third pairing because of his style of play, and Johnson will be better than Jokiharju on the third pairing on LD, we haven't even seen Gilbert yet. I don't see place for Jokiharju.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

We have at least four defensemen who are better than Jokiharju, although I think Clifton will be better on the third pairing because of his style of play, and Johnson will be better than Jokiharju on the third pairing on LD, we haven't even seen Gilbert yet. I don't see room for Jokiharju.

If only you could see a score card of Power and Jokiharju away from each other, it might be a language you understand.