The Roster Thread, Summer 2024

[MOGlLNY]

I used to hear stories about how fans hated Housley because he wasn’t physical and they’d ignore his hall of fame level talents to yell “hit ‘em with your purse, Phyllis!” and I always thought it had to be overblown or a joke on some level.

Reading this thread and seeing how many people don’t even know what Power does out there in terms of zone exits and starting offense at a level far above the rest of the roster at 21…because he isn’t physical..I guess there are more After the Whistle believers than I thought.

I’d have hoped going through this exact thing four short years ago with Dahlin would have been enough to get anyone to understand development as a top D at the NHL level.

I gave too much credit

Here’s the good news for the all D must hit crowd…if they trade Power team hits will go way way up. Because they’ll never get the f***ing puck out

It’s so funny because even if you want to dumb it down to as simple as “what were people saying about Dahlin 3-4 years ago?” you’d think they’d understand.

No they’re not the same players, but you’d think they could grasp the idea that defenseman need more patience.

 

[Zman5778]

I've always comp'd Power to Bouwmeester. I believe @Zman5778 was the first to post it, but it's something I've thought about since I first started watching him.

Until I see him develop other parts of his game, in my mind he'll be a solid but unspectacular top 4 dman whose contract we'll probably always leave people wanting more.

I believe my comp has been a "more offensively-gifted form" of J-Bow.

And I see nothing that'll change my mind. He's offensively gifted, but will never be physical. His defensive game will always be based around positioning and smarts.

 

[Beerz]

I believe my comp has been a "more offensively-gifted form" of J-Bow.

And I see nothing that'll change my mind. He's offensively gifted, but will never be physical. His defensive game will always be based around positioning and smarts.

And his positioning and smarts defensively is bad and I see no light at end of tunnel

 

[Fezzy126]

I used to hear stories about how fans hated Housley because he wasn’t physical and they’d ignore his hall of fame level talents to yell “hit ‘em with your purse, Phyllis!” and I always thought it had to be overblown or a joke on some level.

Reading this thread and seeing how many people don’t even know what Power does out there in terms of zone exits and starting offense at a level far above the rest of the roster at 21…because he isn’t physical..I guess there are more After the Whistle believers than I thought.

I’d have hoped going through this exact thing four short years ago with Dahlin would have been enough to get anyone to understand development as a top D at the NHL level.

I gave too much credit

Here’s the good news for the all D must hit crowd…if they trade Power team hits will go way way up. Because they’ll never get the f***ing puck out

The pure hitz crowd is what they are, but completely swinging the pendulum the other way and disregarding the impact on a game that physicality, and more importantly engagement level and things like stick details, is just as major an offense.

Besides, who here is trading Power? Has anyone even been suggesting that getting rid of him would be good for the team? Pointing out his deficiencies is not synonymous with advocating for a trade

 

[Zman5778]

And his positioning and smarts defensively is bad and I see no light at end of tunnel

He's 21. There is plenty of development yet to happen with him.

 

[Zman5778]

Besides, who here is trading Power? Has anyone even been suggesting that getting rid of him would be good for the team? Pointing out his deficiencies is not synonymous with advocating for a trade

He isn't untouchable.......but he certainly isn't being traded just to be traded. For example: If Ottawa demanded Power in return for Tkachuk, I'd have to think really long and hard about it.

 

[Beerz]

He's 21. There is plenty of development yet to happen with him.

You would see that development in his college game and his time in NHL .. he has no interest in it or nobody has ever demanded it of him.

 

[Gabrielor]

He isn't untouchable.......but he certainly isn't being traded just to be traded. For example: If Ottawa demanded Power in return for Tkachuk, I'd have to think really long and hard about it.

I'd pass. Dahlin, Tage, and Power are the 3 I'm not giving up, unless we're talking about Connor.

 

[Fezzy126]

He isn't untouchable.......but he certainly isn't being traded just to be traded. For example: If Ottawa demanded Power in return for Tkachuk, I'd have to think really long and hard about it.

He's not untouchable in my mind either. But I'm no where near a "this guy needs to go" opinion.

 

[Zman5778]

I'd pass. Dahlin, Tage, and Power are the 3 I'm not giving up, unless we're talking about Connor.

Personally right now I've got 2 guys that I'd rather not give up: Dahlin and Benson.

Otherwise, anyone else is available for the right deal. (Obviously a Tage or Cozens deal would necessitate a center coming back)

 

[Beerz]

Dahlin is my only untouchable.

Quinn and Benson are my ... it better be reaaaal good.

 

[Dingo44]

I have Quinn in my top five untouchable for sure. If he can avoid the freak accidents and stay healthy he will be incredible.

 

[TommyDangles]

He was one of their better transition defenseman during the cup run. He wasn’t exactly a great player at defense at the time, and he shouldn’t have been expected to be. But then he has regressed offensively, and his defensive game still has the same issues he’s always had with it, and he was traded to an organization that is terrible at defense. Not exactly a great fit.

What fans have been asking for is a calming defensively competent partner for Dahlin. It’s what we also need for Power as well. Adams added a luxury player when we had holes of the opposite type of defenseman.

The good news is that he’s soon to be 23 so he has time to still develop something. The question is if he has the ability to learn the defensive aspect of his game to a level that the Sabres can benefit from. If you’re saying he’s not learning to play D, then he needs to be gone if that’s the case.

Byram was good defensively at that time. His defensive metrics were even better than his offensive that season. A season that was only 2 years ago. He's shown what he's capable of. Being a top 4 D on a cup winning team. Something we need.

Dahlin has played his best with good transition d men. Not stay at home defensive guys. Byram is a good fit with Dahlin. The he needs a "calming defensively competent partner" doesn't match what Dahlin actually excels with.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

There's two problems with Byram.

#1 - he's not good defensively. Maybe his metrics were better during that first season, but since that Cup run he's been below average and in Buffalo he was a train wreck in his own end. Sure he's got offensive talent and time to develop, but he just brings more of what the D-corps already has and less of what it needs. He just plain doesn't fit. He won't get much PP time and he won't be anyone's safety net as a partner. Why Kevyn, why?

#2 - he's still developing. Yeah that means he can potentially get better in his own zone. The real problem is that it takes time. The D-corps desperately needs a veteran guy that's steady, been there before, bails out his young offensive partner's mistakes, maybe even is a bit physical and brings leadership. Instead, we're going to have to wait yet another couple years for another young guy to develop (hopefully) while partnering with another guy that still needs to develop. Again Kevyn, why? He's doubling down on young and dumb. My god did we not see enough of that from all parts of the roster for the last two seasons??

re Power - I'm happy to have him penned in as the 2nd pair LHD for a decade. I think he'll round out as a great offensive weapon and be worth his contract. That doesn't mean I have faith he's ever going to be physical or nasty or solid defensively. I can get by with him being an easier guy to play against, but if he doesn't get solid in his own zone, that will necessitate having a Samuelsson-esque partner for him. He already does need that guy and KA went the other direction.

KA, by his own words now, knows it's time to put the foot on the gas. That also means he can't use the "time to develop" excuse for his own inaction. He has to transition from hoarding draft talent to properly building a well-rounded roster. The Byram trade is a really bad sign that he's not knowledgeable enough to do that.

 

[Irie]

KA, by his own words now, knows it's time to put the foot on the gas. That also means he can't use the "time to develop" excuse for his own inaction. He has to transition from hoarding draft talent to properly building a well-rounded roster. The Byram trade is a really bad sign that he's not knowledgeable enough to do that.

I would agree with this wholeheartedly *if* he had gotten Mitts signed and then made the trade, but I have had a feeling for over a year, just based of how he talks about Mitts, that he has been looking to move on from Casey for a while.

Maybe it is hesitancy to pay him after signing Tage and Cozens, but it really felt like something more.

I have started to wonder if it wasn't based on a belief that Mittelstadt may not be the best vet to have around for the young guys. Stories are out there of him having all the young guys over his place playing a lot of video games, and of his focus on golfing during offseasons in lieu of rigorous hockey training.

My gut tells me that Adams had his mind set on moving 37 before Colorado called, and being offered Byram was the value that Adams needed to pull the trigger and not have a PR nightmare.

Note: I am not saying the trade was smart, or that Adams is a good GM. I am just airing my opinion that moving on from MItts was likely about more than bringing in Byram, but Adams will never give us the straight up truth on anything. He won't throw anyone under the bus, it isn't his style(which is commendable), but all his responses to media questions are either canned or measured, so who knows what the hell is really going on.

 

[Irie]

Byram was good defensively at that time. His defensive metrics were even better than his offensive that season. A season that was only 2 years ago. He's shown what he's capable of. Being a top 4 D on a cup winning team. Something we need.

Dahlin has played his best with good transition d men. Not stay at home defensive guys. Byram is a good fit with Dahlin. The he needs a "calming defensively competent partner" doesn't match what Dahlin actually excels with.

Dahlin played his absolute best hockey with a healthy Samuelsson in 22-23.

There is not a Colorado fan anywhere who would say Byram has played well defensively the past two seasons. Spinning it like he is a great defender is just not the reality. For a defenseman, Byram is super young, and his talent level is extremely high, so there is a ton to like there, but the fit on this team is questionable. How Ruff ends up deploying Power, Byram and Dahlin will be interesting. I just hope he keeps them all happy while spreading the icetime, and is able to unlock their full potential (this may be easier said than done though).

 

[TommyDangles]

Dahlin played his absolute best hockey with a healthy Samuelsson in 22-23.

There is not a Colorado fan anywhere who would say Byram has played well defensively the past two seasons. Spinning it like he is a great defender is just not the reality. For a defenseman, Byram is super young, and his talent level is extremely high, so there is a ton to like there, but the fit on this team is questionable. How Ruff ends up deploying Power, Byram and Dahlin will be interesting. I just hope he keeps them all happy while spreading the icetime, and is able to unlock their full potential (this may be easier said than done though).

Dahlin played his best hockey with Power this season.

The Dahlin/Sammy experiment had good results in a small sample but was not that good over an entire season.

In 22-23 Dahlin/Power, Dahlin/Joki was better than Dahlin/Samuelsson.

"There is not a Colorado fan anywhere who would say Byram has played well defensively the past two seasons. Spinning it like he is a great defender is just not the reality."

Great because nobody ever said that. I said he was great in 21-22 & during their cup run. His defensive metrics were better than his offensive metrics. Got injured & struggled. He has shown he's capable of being a top 4 D on a cup team.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

I have started to wonder if it wasn't based on a belief that Mittelstadt may not be the best vet to have around for the young guys. Stories are out there of him having all the young guys over his place playing a lot of video games, and of his focus on golfing during offseasons in lieu of rigorous hockey training.

Who knows? Maybe. But if this was part of the reasoning it still stinks. Mitts proved to be one of the hardest workers during games and I read that he pushed really hard in practice with Dahlin. Maybe he was being pushed by Dahlin but either way he was making a good effort in practice. So that doesn't sound like a bad example for younger players. If the worst was having guys over to play video games (staying away from clubs/bars), compare that to the myriad of previous off-ice issues with substance abuse and physical/sexual assault. If KA possibly looked at that as a justification to gut the C depth, he is absolutely a clown (and you would probably agree to some extent).

Also - and this isn't really directed at you... The same logic about "can't pay another guy after Thompson and Cozens" also applies to the D-corps, and even more so considering the 14+ mil to the two Cs vs the 19+ mil going to Dahlin/Power. Byram will command a 5.5-6 mil deal (even if he doesn't deserve it, too late, his salary has already been accelerated by his 2nd contract). So if KA or any posters here use 21 mil for three Cs as a pro-trade talking point (with Mitts actually providing a different and needed skill set from the other two), what's the logic in 25 mil to three LHDs of generally the same type?

 

[tsujimoto74]

Power is more like Risto (without the physical play) or Hanifin, than Hedman. Fans need to really stop acting like Power had Hedman’s potential. Hedman’s IQ of the play away from the puck and in the defensive zone was levels above what Power has, or has shown.

I don’t think it’s fair to say Power hasn’t shown defensive IQ. He hasn’t been consistent in making great plays at that end of the ice, but he absolutely has had games where he’s flashed that potential and been a force in all 3 zones. And it’s very normal for a defenseman his age to still be figuring things out defensively.

 

[tsujimoto74]

A Sharks fan on the main board pitched a trade down from 11 to 14 for Nico Sturm as a trade idea. I like it. Anyone else?

 

[Zman5778]

Who knows? Maybe. But if this was part of the reasoning it still stinks. Mitts proved to be one of the hardest workers during games and I read that he pushed really hard in practice with Dahlin. Maybe he was being pushed by Dahlin but either way he was making a good effort in practice. So that doesn't sound like a bad example for younger players. If the worst was having guys over to play video games (staying away from clubs/bars), compare that to the myriad of previous off-ice issues with substance abuse and physical/sexual assault.

Mitts has always been known as a rink rat and a gym rat, even going back to his HS days. But I wonder.......if maybe Casey is only like that when hockey season is active and ongoing.

We all questioned everybody's off-ice prep last offseason....as many seemed to be everywhere but the rink/gym.

I wonder if that's Casey's habit -- work hard in preseason and during the season.....but in the offseason slack a bit. Would explain his slowish starts and how he tends to get better as the season goes on.

Just a thought/speculation. Nothing more.

 

[Zman5778]

A Sharks fan on the main board pitched a trade down from 11 to 14 for Nico Sturm as a trade idea. I like it. Anyone else?

Depends on who's there at 11.......but my instinct would be to take that deal and know that 4C is effectively taken care of.

 

[Irie]

A Sharks fan on the main board pitched a trade down from 11 to 14 for Nico Sturm as a trade idea. I like it. Anyone else?

From strictly a value aspect, I feel it is a bad deal. Moving up from 14 to 11 historically would cost more than Sturm is worth.

Sturm is probably worth a 3rd and a small add. I would not trade 11 for 14 for an extra 3rd in this draft.

For me, there are only going to be a couple of players that are in the quality tier at 11. 14 may be the last player in that tier, so while.you are technically getting a prospect of similar value, you won't have the luxury of selecting the prospect that best fits the organizations needs. Another undersized winger, for example, is going to have very little value and no spot in the current farm, which means Adams may have to draft a lesser prospect.

For the record, I also do not think Sturm is what this team needs. Decent defensively and good at faceoffs are great characteristics, but he plays with zero edge and is an offensive black hole. If a third line center isn't contributing offensive, then I at least want to see some punishing physicality out of him.

 

[StrompTroller]

From strictly a value aspect, I feel it is a bad deal. Moving up from 14 to 11 historically would cost more than Sturm is worth.

Sturm is probably worth a 3rd and a small add. I would not trade 11 for 14 for an extra 3rd in this draft.

For me, there are only going to be a couple of players that are in the quality tier at 11. 14 may be the last player in that tier, so while.you are technically getting a prospect of similar value, you won't have the luxury of selecting the prospect that best fits the organizations needs. Another undersized winger, for example, is going to have very little value and no spot in the current farm, which means Adams may have to draft a lesser prospect.

For the record, I also do not think Sturm is what this team needs. Decent defensively and good at faceoffs are great characteristics, but he plays with zero edge and is an offensive black hole. If a third line center isn't contributing offensive, then I at least want to see some punishing physicality out of him.

The OP offered Sturm OR Kunin. Kunin might be more up the right alley although adding another wing is mehh

Who knows? Maybe. But if this was part of the reasoning it still stinks. Mitts proved to be one of the hardest workers during games and I read that he pushed really hard in practice with Dahlin. Maybe he was being pushed by Dahlin but either way he was making a good effort in practice. So that doesn't sound like a bad example for younger players. If the worst was having guys over to play video games (staying away from clubs/bars), compare that to the myriad of previous off-ice issues with substance abuse and physical/sexual assault. If KA possibly looked at that as a justification to gut the C depth, he is absolutely a clown (and you would probably agree to some extent).

Also - and this isn't really directed at you... The same logic about "can't pay another guy after Thompson and Cozens" also applies to the D-corps, and even more so considering the 14+ mil to the two Cs vs the 19+ mil going to Dahlin/Power. Byram will command a 5.5-6 mil deal (even if he doesn't deserve it, too late, his salary has already been accelerated by his 2nd contract). So if KA or any posters here use 21 mil for three Cs as a pro-trade talking point (with Mitts actually providing a different and needed skill set from the other two), what's the logic in 25 mil to three LHDs of generally the same type?

just joking of course but how many Mitts jerseys do you own to care this fvcking much lol?

 

[Dubi Doo]

Power is more like Risto (without the physical play) or Hanifin, than Hedman. Fans need to really stop acting like Power had Hedman’s potential. Hedman’s IQ of the play away from the puck and in the defensive zone was levels above what Power has, or has shown.

Fans need to stop making concrete statements about Power's defensive game 10 years from now based on how he's performed as a 21 year old in a system that is far from D friendly. This is coming from someone who wasn't a fan of the gigantic contract they gave to him.

It’s so funny because even if you want to dumb it down to as simple as “what were people saying about Dahlin 3-4 years ago?” you’d think they’d understand.

No they’re not the same players, but you’d think they could grasp the idea that defenseman need more patience.

It's pure ignorance, and one of the more frustrating things I've read on this board.