Speculation: The Quest to sign Lindholm: Part II

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Sojourn

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Nov 1, 2006
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You could OFFER both guys offer sheets, but you couldn't sign both of them to one. Like you said, the pick situation would put the kibosh on that.

You think the NHL would allow that? It's clear one of the offer sheets can't stand, so how can the team make an offer for both? That doesn't seem like something that would be allowed. Not if the offers were made at the same time.

It would be a very unusual situation because it's a new one, but I feel pretty confident the NHL would step in.

Edit: The point is that an offer sheet is a promise. It's a contract. It's bad faith to offer two contracts to two players, when you know one of them can't happen.
 

Vipers31

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Compensation must be your own pick. No team has 2 of its own 1sts.

That's what I meant. It would take two teams to plan this through, one doing the first offer sheet looking for the Ducks to match and opening the way for the 2nd to swoop in on the now vulnerable second one. Whatever motivation the first team would have. It's just not a sensible scenario. :)
 

Vipers31

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You think the NHL would allow that? It's clear one of the offer sheets can't stand, so how can the team make an offer for both? That doesn't seem like something that would be allowed. Not if the offers were made at the same time.

It would be a very unusual situation because it's a new one, but I feel pretty confident the NHL would step in.

I don't think mere offers are subject to NHL supervision. But any outstanding offer would obviously be void the moment one offer sheet is filed as accepted.
 

nbducksfan19

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Jun 4, 2008
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I wouldn't normally feel comfortable speaking for an entire fan base. But in this case, I can tell you there isn't a single canucks fan that would give up Boeser or Juolevi for the Ducks package.

HAHAHA, I can assure you the only one who matters, Jim Benning, would drive Boeser and Juolevi to the airport and upgrade them to first class for Lindholm and Rakkel.
 

Sojourn

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I don't think mere offers are subject to NHL supervision. But any offer would obviously be void the moment one offer sheet is filed as accepted.

I'm not sure that's the case. A contract still needs to be valid. It has to be a legal contract, right? That means it has to go through the NHL. The Kovalchuk contract being an example of that.
 

Vipers31

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I'm not sure that's the case. A contract still needs to be valid. It has to be a legal contract, right? That means it has to go through the NHL. The Kovalchuk contract being an example of that.

Well, the Kovalchuk contract is a contract. They reviewed it upon it being filed with the league. They didn't review any contract offers. I don't think there's a way for the league to control whether offer sheets being offered are compatible, so to speak. The 2nd offer sheet being offered would just never make it to being an actual contract. It would be a void offer as soon as the 1st offer sheet was accepted.
 

Sojourn

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Well, the Kovalchuk contract is a contract. They reviewed it upon it being filed with the league. They didn't review any contract offers. I don't think there's a way for the league to control whether offer sheets being offered are compatible, so to speak. The 2nd offer sheet being offered would just never make it to being an actual contract. It would be a void offer as soon as the 1st offer sheet was accepted.

I don't know. It seems sketchy as hell, and it's clearly bad faith. An offer sheet is still a contract, and I think the NHL would have a real problem with a team offering a contract to a player that they know they may not be able to follow through on. That's seriously dishonest.

It's the kind of thing that I could see happening once, and then new rules would be put in place to make sure it never happened again. And because of the clear intention behind it, I would expect punishment.
 
Oct 18, 2011
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Anaheim cannot seem to sign these players..

Former top 10 pick dman for former top 10 pick dman..

Former 1st round forward only since trended up for former 1st round former only since trended up..

RFA contracts vs 3 years of cheap

Anaheim is stacked with defenseman and can wait 1-2 yrs for Juolevi to catch up..

Anaheim avoids paying Rakell 3-4 mill and signs Boeser for 925k at years end in time for the playoffs when his season is done..

Dorsett fills in as a veteran forward in the meantime..

Canucks likely take on 6 extra million when all said and done and have to protect both players, Anaheim gets two protection slots opened up as both prospects are exempt for this and likely next expansion too..



I see some reasons why... care to share some why nots? Anaheim gives up the better players now, Vancouver gives up cap space, expansion slots and their best two prospects..
Your valuations are pretty bad. Just b.c two guys are drafted in similar spots does not make their value close.

Second if ana did trade lindholm it would be similar to jones/johansen.

And lol @ throwing dorsett in there, get real bruh
 

Guffman

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Apr 7, 2016
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Well in my mind Anaheim would be able to flip Trouba. There is a market for a player like him.

Plenty of teams would come calling, and with the roster set, Anaheim has the leverage.

Right, the Jets are going to trade Anaheim for a poor return and then Anaheim flips him for a great return.

This doesn't seem like a worthwhile conversation to participate in.

Exit...stage left.
 

Ducks in a row

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I know the Canucks cannot fit the cap but hows this for the value?

Derek Dorsett, Brock Boeser, Olli Juolevi
for
Rickard Rakell, Hampus Lindholm


Anaheim gets a veteran forward plus huge savings with two players on ELC in exchange for their expensive RFAs. Kind of the mystery box approach but if the budget is that tight might not be a bad move.

Canucks bridge the age gap with a 23 and 22 year old in return for their top 2 prospects, both help expedite the rebuild on the fly.

We are not trading Rakell and Lindholm for a cap dump and prospects especially to a division rival.

Anaheim cannot seem to sign these players..

Former top 10 pick dman for former top 10 pick dman..

Former 1st round forward only since trended up for former 1st round former only since trended up..

RFA contracts vs 3 years of cheap

Anaheim is stacked with defenseman and can wait 1-2 yrs for Juolevi to catch up..

Anaheim avoids paying Rakell 3-4 mill and signs Boeser for 925k at years end in time for the playoffs when his season is done..

Dorsett fills in as a veteran forward in the meantime..

Canucks likely take on 6 extra million when all said and done and have to protect both players, Anaheim gets two protection slots opened up as both prospects are exempt for this and likely next expansion too..



I see some reasons why... care to share some why nots? Anaheim gives up the better players now, Vancouver gives up cap space, expansion slots and their best two prospects..

Ducks are a win now team so in that sense this is terrrible. It becomes more terrible in that we trade the best pieces for maybes yuck.

I understand the Ducks are in win now mode, but you obviously know nothing about Boeser or Juolevi if you wouldn't trade Lindholm for them. Like come on lol...

You don't know anything about Lindholm and Rakell if you think we would trade them for that like come on...

I wouldn't normally feel comfortable speaking for an entire fan base. But in this case, I can tell you there isn't a single canucks fan that would give up Boeser or Juolevi for the Ducks package.

If no one from the Canucks would trade those two prospects for Rakell and Lindholm then they are insane.

If that were the case then the entire fanbase would be idiots.

Yep
 

Vipers31

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I don't know. It seems sketchy as hell, and it's clearly bad faith. An offer sheet is still a contract, and I think the NHL would have a real problem with a team offering a contract to a player that they know they may not be able to follow through on. That's seriously dishonest.

It's the kind of thing that I could see happening once, and then new rules would be put in place to make sure it never happened again. And because of the clear intention behind it, I would expect punishment.

Well, I'm not sure how formalized offer sheets are, but if they aren't entirely, you could be straight up with the players and include a clause that this offer is only active as long as the picks required for compensation remain in the team's possession.

If they are strictly formalized, without any room for individual clauses, yeah, then a team would probably get a few angry words from the league if somehow both offer sheets wound up accepted. Although, they probably would just never go through with filing the 2nd accepted offer sheet.
 

Vatican Roulette

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Right, the Jets are going to trade Anaheim for a poor return and then Anaheim flips him for a great return.

This doesn't seem like a worthwhile conversation to participate in.

Exit...stage left.

I never said "great". The Jets get a top young LHD. They don't trade Trouba for nothing.

On the flip side, Anaheim gets a great trade option...for them, they have different needs. Mainly, they don't need defense in return for trading defense.

That opens Anaheim up to trade Trouba to the highest bidder without having to take any cap back other than ELC's.

My opinion.
 

Rebuilt

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Jun 8, 2014
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Anaheim cannot seem to sign these players..

Former top 10 pick dman for former top 10 pick dman..

Former 1st round forward only since trended up for former 1st round former only since trended up..

RFA contracts vs 3 years of cheap

Anaheim is stacked with defenseman and can wait 1-2 yrs for Juolevi to catch up..

Anaheim avoids paying Rakell 3-4 mill and signs Boeser for 925k at years end in time for the playoffs when his season is done..

Dorsett fills in as a veteran forward in the meantime..

Canucks likely take on 6 extra million when all said and done and have to protect both players, Anaheim gets two protection slots opened up as both prospects are exempt for this and likely next expansion too..



I see some reasons why... care to share some why nots? Anaheim gives up the better players now, Vancouver gives up cap space, expansion slots and their best two prospects..

I do this all day for Anaheim. I know Rakell is turning into a fan favorite down at Disney but this deal is GOLD for the Ducks cap and expansion draft. Only Benning would do this deal.

A pouting Lindholm isnt going to do anything from his couch and even if he did play the Canucks aint contending.
 

OnTheBrink

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Apr 19, 2013
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Just for fun, neither team likely does this... Think decent value though.

Draisaitl + Nurse + Fayne (need to move some cap out) + 2nd for Lindholm + Rakell

2 ELC's save Ducks money, both ELC's are qaulity NHL ready players, Draisaitl will be Ducks succession plan for 1C but is capable of playing the wing until the spot is available, Nurse brings a physical component missing from ducks Blueline. Fayne is a cap dump that can sit in the press box and the 2nd is the price to take him.

Oilers get another young #3 or better Swedish D man to have another shot at one turning into a true #1, worse case they have two #2 D man and two #3 Dman which is a hell of a lot better then they have had in the past. Rakell gives them a good 3rd line center and being RH will be a help for face offs and likely get him some PP time.
 

go4hockey

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Oct 14, 2007
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I understand the Ducks are in win now mode, but you obviously know nothing about Boeser or Juolevi if you wouldn't trade Lindholm for them. Like come on lol...

You must know nothing of Lindholm if you think trading those two prospects for him would be bad for your team. Dream on.
 

Bust

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Jul 28, 2016
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Just for fun, neither team likely does this... Think decent value though.

Draisaitl + Nurse + Fayne (need to move some cap out) + 2nd for Lindholm + Rakell

2 ELC's save Ducks money, both ELC's are qaulity NHL ready players, Draisaitl will be Ducks succession plan for 1C but is capable of playing the wing until the spot is available, Nurse brings a physical component missing from ducks Blueline. Fayne is a cap dump that can sit in the press box and the 2nd is the price to take him.

Oilers get another young #3 or better Swedish D man to have another shot at one turning into a true #1, worse case they have two #2 D man and two #3 Dman which is a hell of a lot better then they have had in the past. Rakell gives them a good 3rd line center and being RH will be a help for face offs and likely get him some PP time.

Fayne and a 2nd do next to nothing for ANA. Ducks cant afford to pay someone to sit in the pressbox.
Lindholm would instantly become EDM's best defense man.
Not enough for the two ANA players.
 

Dr Quincy

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Jun 19, 2005
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I'm not sure that's the case. A contract still needs to be valid. It has to be a legal contract, right? That means it has to go through the NHL. The Kovalchuk contract being an example of that.

An offer sheet isn't a contract. Teams can make an offer sheet to a player and we'd never know it. It's only when the player signs the offer sheet that the league is notified. At least that's always been my understanding.
 

Group Chat Legend*

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I understand the Ducks are in win now mode, but you obviously know nothing about Boeser or Juolevi if you wouldn't trade Lindholm for them. Like come on lol...

Lindholm is worth more than then both combined.
 

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An offer sheet isn't a contract. Teams can make an offer sheet to a player and we'd never know it. It's only when the player signs the offer sheet that the league is notified. At least that's always been my understanding.

The league is notified about offer sheets being sent out but for obvious reasons most dont go public as they usually yield no results (player doesn't sign).

Any single piece of official documentation that is filled out the NHL knows about.
 

Sojourn

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An offer sheet isn't a contract. Teams can make an offer sheet to a player and we'd never know it. It's only when the player signs the offer sheet that the league is notified. At least that's always been my understanding.

See, I don't see how that could possibly be the case.

An offer sheet is a promise. A written agreement. You're giving the player a piece of paper that says, if he plays for you, he will make a certain amount of money. The player is then obligated to play for you if he signs it. How is that not a contract? The only difference here is that the player's current team can match the contract offer, and that promise then applies to them. A team can't send an offer sheet to a player, and then retract it after the player has signed it. It's enforceable. Legal. Binding. That's the definition of a contract.

I think people are getting hung up on the name, and are missing the intent behind an offer sheet. It's a certain type of contract, but it's a contract.
 

mattydamon

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May 2, 2011
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You must know nothing of Lindholm if you think trading those two prospects for him would be bad for your team. Dream on.

But it would be - nucks aren't contenders nor will they be in the next few years really - they need guys for the future and players like lindholm would be kinda wasted here right now; no way I would want to give up both those guys when we've had such a **** prospect pool for so long.
 

Curufinwe

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Feb 28, 2013
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See, I don't see how that could possibly be the case.

An offer sheet is a promise. A written agreement. You're giving the player a piece of paper that says, if he plays for you, he will make a certain amount of money. The player is then obligated to play for you if he signs it.

If he signs it.
 

wintersej

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Nov 26, 2011
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I never said "great". The Jets get a top young LHD. They don't trade Trouba for nothing.

On the flip side, Anaheim gets a great trade option...for them, they have different needs. Mainly, they don't need defense in return for trading defense.

That opens Anaheim up to trade Trouba to the highest bidder without having to take any cap back other than ELC's.

My opinion.

If ANA is going to trade Lindholm, why does WPG have to be involved at all? Lindholm > Trouba... just trade Lindholm to the highest bidder.
 
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