Speculation: The Quest to sign Lindholm: Part II

[dracom]

Do people not realize that LTIR is not put in place as a method to circumvent the salary cap? There are regular medical examinations. reports, and constant communication on the status of these injuries provided to the league, PA, and insurance companies who could be paying premiums based on those reports. I wonder how many doctors are prepared to cook the books and report a player is disabled to allow a team to get under the cap restraints... not to mention how many players would be happy being told that they have to pretend to be hurt until at least the playoffs. Players want to play, not be told...Bob we think you are crappie and want to get your salary off the books...can you hold your head and act like your injury is worse than it really is? Oh and we are going to use your money to replace you?

You do realize we're not suggesting for the organization to lie about injuries right? Thompson is already supposed to be out until the TDL, and with Despres concussion history, and his current status, he may very well be done with hockey all together; or at the very least out for awhile.

All I'm seeing when I see these posts is people not wanting the ucks to use the cap relief because it would help the Ducks and that means they can't continue to try and screw over the Ducks with bad trade proposals. LTIR is there for a reason, if we have to use for our players who are injured, we'll use it. And if it helps us in re-signing Lindholm, then that's great.

 

[dracom]

LTIR is not a loophole. Imagine if a team was against the cap and has injuries without the LTIR they wouldn't be able to field a 23 man roster which would be terrible for teams.

but we want to use that to help our team, so it's illegal and we can't do it. Instead we have to take Fowler for a 3rd type of offers instead.

 

[Maukkis]

Reports are that's the ballpark for what Lindholm wants, around 5.5-6.5 for 8 years. Might have to come down on years, but the AAV is still in the right ball park.

Putting Despres on LTIR for the season might be risky, but playing him at this point is just as risky. Third concussion in a year, stupidly playing with concussion symptoms in the playoffs, and getting more symptoms without getting hit (I believe) don't lead to a long and healthy NHL career.

I don't think we're on the same page here. I agree that concussions are more dangerous than most would think, and you shouldn't ever consider playing if you're still dealing with the symptoms. That's not what I'm calling risky here. What I mean is that there is always a possibility of Despres being able to return, which would decimate the team's cap. If that was to happen, every single Ducks fan would want Murray's head, and heck, he would probably get the boot, should the Ducks need to forfeit their games or make a horrible trade to clear space.

Is the team better with Lindholm? Absolutely. Do you want to take that risk as a GM? No. I don't think he wants to put his position at risk. He might make a move to solve the Lindholm problem (for the record, I will be shocked if Lindholm isn't signed by December), but it certainly won't involve LTIR. Put it this way: as a GM, would you rather do a bad trade now to get Lindholm signed, or try to circumvent the cap and possibly face an even worse situation later, which may put your position as a GM at risk?

 

[Exit Dose]

Do people not realize that LTIR is not put in place as a method to circumvent the salary cap? There are regular medical examinations. reports, and constant communication on the status of these injuries provided to the league, PA, and insurance companies who could be paying premiums based on those reports. I wonder how many doctors are prepared to cook the books and report a player is disabled to allow a team to get under the cap restraints... not to mention how many players would be happy being told that they have to pretend to be hurt until at least the playoffs. Players want to play, not be told...Bob we think you are crappie and want to get your salary off the books...can you hold your head and act like your injury is worse than it really is? Oh and we are going to use your money to replace you?

Anaheim did not make up any of the injuries for the players that would be heading to IR.

 

[caymanmew]

After the TLD, the cap doesn't really matter. Just look at what the Hawks did when Kane went down. They got Vermette and Kane was magically ready for Game 1 of the playoffs even though he was still weeks away from supposedly being ready. They were over the cap, but it didn't matter at that point anymore.

And Despres can't stay healthy, his career might be done at this point. Thompson has already been said to be out until the TDL anyways.

Cap matters for the whole season. Chicago had Kane on LTIR till the playoffs started. Now he was hurt and although he was probably healthy enough to play a game or two at the end of the season they where not able to take him off LTIR due to the cap so he didn't.

What your suggesting is sitting a possible healthy players for months on LTIR to circumvent the cap.

That is way way to risky as you risk forfeiting games and being forced to make a trade right away. I don't think i should have to mention it but i will. If your GM is in a position where they need to make a trade right away and the longer it take the more games they forfeit then your will be looking at trades so bad that they would be locked instantly if posted on HF.

You want to risk having to trade Fowler for a 3rd or 4th round pick or worst? I bet your GM doesn't.

 

[dracom]

I don't think we're on the same page here. I agree that concussions are more dangerous than most would think, and you shouldn't ever consider playing if you're still dealing with the symptoms. That's not what I'm calling risky here. What I mean is that there is always a possibility of Despres being able to return, which would decimate the team's cap. If that was to happen, every single Ducks fan would want Murray's head, and heck, he would probably get the boot, should the Ducks need to forfeit their games or make a horrible trade to clear space.

Is the team better with Lindholm? Absolutely. Do you want to take that risk as a GM? No. I don't think he wants to put his position at risk. He might make a move to solve the Lindholm problem (for the record, I will be shocked if Lindholm isn't signed by December), but it certainly won't involve LTIR. Put it this way: as a GM, would you rather do a bad trade now to get Lindholm signed, or try to circumvent the cap and possibly face an even worse situation later, which may put your position as a GM at risk?

Fair enough. Though from the sounds of it, Murray wants to sign Lindholm without making a trade. And the only way to do that is with LTIR. Maybe he's waiting to hear back from the specialist about Despres to see what's wrong with him. if he see him being out for long term, he makes the LTIR moves, if he's not then he makes a trade (Fowler/Stoner+Theo/Larsson/Montour).

 

[Maukkis]

Fair enough. Though from the sounds of it, Murray wants to sign Lindholm without making a trade. And the only way to do that is with LTIR. Maybe he's waiting to hear back from the specialist about Despres to see what's wrong with him. if he see him being out for long term, he makes the LTIR moves, if he's not then he makes a trade (Fowler/Stoner+Theo/Larsson/Montour).

You're right. I don't think he's doing anything before he knows more about Despres' situation, which makes perfect sense.

One thing which is rarely discussed in these threads is the possibility of Fowler being traded WITH one of those prospects for a great ELC forward. Is that a possibility, or does it hurt the defense too much going forward?

 

[Stream*]

You do realize we're not suggesting for the organization to lie about injuries right? Thompson is already supposed to be out until the TDL, and with Despres concussion history, and his current status, he may very well be done with hockey all together; or at the very least out for awhile.

All I'm seeing when I see these posts is people not wanting the ucks to use the cap relief because it would help the Ducks and that means they can't continue to try and screw over the Ducks with bad trade proposals. LTIR is there for a reason, if we have to use for our players who are injured, we'll use it. And if it helps us in re-signing Lindholm, then that's great.

I am sure the phrases "supposedly could be out until the TDL" and "could very well be done with hockey" will be the first words out of BMs mouth when he is meeting with the NHL boards trying to explain why he has 79 million in salaries in January.

Ya everyone is out to gets the Ducks...boo hoo. You sound like my 13 year old daughter, when I point out any facts to her. I think I have destroyed her life at least 30 times this week.

 

[dracom]

You're right. I don't think he's doing anything before he knows more about Despres' situation, which makes perfect sense.

One thing which is rarely discussed in these threads is the possibility of Fowler being traded WITH one of those prospects for a great ELC forward. Is that a possibility, or does it hurt the defense too much going forward?

That's interesting, would have to be a really good ELC forward though if we're trading Fowler and one of those D prospects. But I think I would rather just take a bad return on a Stoner+D prospect than trade Fowler+D prospect, since that would hurt the defense more than necessary.

I am sure the phrases "supposedly could be out until the TDL" and "could very well be done with hockey" will be the first words out of BMs mouth when he is meeting with the NHL boards trying to explain why he has 79 million in salaries in January.

Ya everyone is out to gets the Ducks...boo hoo. You sound like my 13 year old daughter, when I point out any facts to her. I think I have destroyed her life at least 30 times this week.

What are you even talking about dude? Concussions are *****, especially ones that come back for no reason. Concussions can end a career. Depending on what the specialist says for Despres, it's a real possibility the concussions will keep him from playing for awhile, maybe for good.

You obviously haven't paid attention to any trade proposals when it comes to the Ducks in the past few weeks. It's been constant good players for bad value because of the cap and we have no other way around it. When there's a suggested way to get Lindholm re-signed without having to trade, we get posts like yours saying you can't because we said so, so now take our bad offers.

Plus, you're the one making things up to suite your posts, I've never said once for Murray to lie about an injury. if that was the case, I would have suggest Murray to lie about an injury to Bieksa. All I've said is that guys like Thompson and Despres could be out long term, and in Despres case could be done for good.

 

[LuckyDucky]

I am sure the phrases "supposedly could be out until the TDL" and "could very well be done with hockey" will be the first words out of BMs mouth when he is meeting with the NHL boards trying to explain why he has 79 million in salaries in January.

Ya everyone is out to gets the Ducks...boo hoo. You sound like my 13 year old daughter, when I point out any facts to her. I think I have destroyed her life at least 30 times this week.

Thompson tore his Achilles. The fact remains that he is probably out until the TDL. Despres just had recurring concussion symptoms from a non-contact play. His timetable is far from certain.

Those are facts. I'm not 100% sure what your facts, and how what was said is that far from factual.

 

[tempest2i]

The Ducks organization are such crooks!

LOL, the Ducks aren't that special. Everyone uses it.

LTIR is not a loophole. Imagine if a team was against the cap and has injuries without the LTIR they wouldn't be able to field a 23 man roster which would be terrible for teams.

When a player conveniently gets hurt and their salary conveniently is exactly the amount of money that needs to be cleared so a transaction can happen it looks like a loophole. I'm sure it will just be a coincidence when whatever player gets LTIR'd is magically healthy again as soon as the playoffs start and the salary cap is no longer in effect

but we want to use that to help our team, so it's illegal and we can't do it. Instead we have to take Fowler for a 3rd type of offers instead.

The league appears to have no interest in stopping it, so teams will continue to use it. This "woe is us" act is pointless. No need to get so defensive.

 

[Stream*]

From what i have read, your solution to the ducks cap issues are easily solved by using LTIR. I dont believe that is true. So if you 2 were the GM of the Ducks, you would make the decision to have 79 million on the books based on "could be out" and "may never play"? Any GM that is basing their decision on those facts will quickly be unemployed. All I am saying is things are never that easy. If you think different...we just don't agree.

 

[dracom]

LOL, the Ducks aren't that special. Everyone uses it.



When a player conveniently gets hurt and their salary conveniently is exactly the amount of money that needs to be cleared so a transaction can happen it looks like a loophole. I'm sure it will just be a coincidence when whatever player gets LTIR'd is magically healthy again as soon as the playoffs start and the salary cap is no longer in effect



The league appears to have no interest in stopping it, so teams will continue to use it. This "woe is us" act is pointless. No need to get so defensive.

If everyone uses it, why are we getting **** for wanting to use it too?

There's no player getting conveniently hurt for us, Thompson had a off season injury from training and Despres is getting concussion symptoms back from his concussion last season. These are real injuries, there's no faking it from our side.

While I agree the league should stop the loophole, if the Ducks can use it, then do it. I'm just tired of hearing how we can't do it, so we have to trade away a good player for nothing. Not getting defensive about.

 

[12ozPapa]

Still think he gets traded. Which sucks, but also isn't too bad because we get to at least keep Fowler and Vatanen.

 

[dracom]

From what i have read, your solution to the ducks cap issues are easily solved by using LTIR. I dont believe that is true. So if you 2 were the GM of the Ducks, you would make the decision to have 79 million on the books based on "could be out" and "may never play"? Any GM that is basing their decision on those facts will quickly be unemployed. All I am saying is things are never that easy. If you think different...we just don't agree.

You need to re-read it again then. I'm only suggesting using it IF Despres and Thompson are going to be out long term. In Despres case, he could be out for good, all depending on what the specialist says at this point.

No where have I said we should just do it and if Despres and Thompson come back then we have to deal with it then.

 

[Sojourn]

Yay, the LTIR loophole strikes again!

Despres potentially being out long-term with a concussion is hardly a loophole. Ditto for Thompson and his Achilles injury.

Let's not make it sound like these would be marginal injuries to put a player on LTIR for.

 

[caymanmew]

You need to re-read it again then. I'm only suggesting using it IF Despres and Thompson are going to be out long term. In Despres case, he could be out for good, all depending on what the specialist says at this point.

No where have I said we should just do it and if Despres and Thompson come back then we have to deal with it then.

Problem is you cant guarantee they are out for the whole season. If one or both come back you are going to be so massively screwed. Even if you have some warning they are getting close to coming back you will be forced to make a trade far far worst then you would make right now.

Your best to deal with the problem now rather then deal with it when it is 10 times worst in 3-4 months.

 

[Sojourn]

Problem is you cant guarantee they are out for the whole season. If one or both come back you are going to be so massively screwed. Even if you have some warning they are getting close to coming back you will be forced to make a trade far far worst then you would make right now.

Your best to deal with the problem now rather then deal with it when it is 10 times worst in 3-4 months.

I think you're misinterpreting what dracom is saying. He isn't suggesting it's a permanent solution. It just buys Anaheim a bit of time.

 

[dracom]

Problem is you cant guarantee they are out for the whole season. If one or both come back you are going to be so massively screwed. Even if you have some warning they are getting close to coming back you will be forced to make a trade far far worst then you would make right now.

Your best to deal with the problem now rather then deal with it when it is 10 times worst in 3-4 months.

I know, but that doesn't apply to the scenario I'm proposing. I'm only saying we do this if those guys are going to be out long term. If the specialist says Despres could be back before the TDL or end of the season, then it's best not to make that move. If he can't, then let's put him on LTIR and hope he can come back next season.

 

[caymanmew]

I know, but that doesn't apply to the scenario I'm proposing. I'm only saying we do this if those guys are going to be out long term. If the specialist says Despres could be back before the TDL or end of the season, then it's best not to make that move. If he can't, then let's put him on LTIR and hope he can come back next season.

And Thompson? You have repeatedly said he he will be back around the TDL.

Deal with this now not latter when you get corned into a horrible trade just to prevent forfeiting games.

 

[Sojourn]

And Thompson? You have repeatedly said he he will be back around the TDL.

Deal with this now not latter when you get corned into a horrible trade just to prevent forfeiting games.

You should consider that opportunities will come up as we go further into the season. Players will get injured, and GM's will need to fill those holes. It happens every season. A little bit of bought time goes a long way for Anaheim here. Assuming Murray is smart about it.

And in the meantime, Lindholm would be playing.

 

[Curufinwe]

It's a pretty obvious that a lot of these posts are based on nothing but spite towards the Ducks organization. There's nothing wrong with putting players with long term injuries on LTIR.

 

[Ducks in a row]

It's a pretty obvious that a lot of these posts are based on nothing but spite towards the Ducks organization. There's nothing wrong with putting players with long term injuries on LTIR.

Yep and I don't understand that spite some people have for us.

 

[Starat327]

Yep and I don't understand that spite some people have for us.

Cause you has nice things. And I wants them.

 

[Sojourn]

Cause you has nice things. And I wants them.

I like the honesty.