I am not absolving Henke for poor play. However, when one plays in a system that consistently hangs the goalie out to dry, eventually it catches up. Henke covered up for AV for years. AV refuses to tweak the system even though it is obvious that support is now needed.
The problem for Lundqvist
- Thread starter Chimpradamus
- Start date
Crease
Chief Justice of the HFNYR Court
- Jul 12, 2004
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Plenty of frustration to go around.
Frustrated with Lundqvist for not changing his style to compensate for his declining physical abilities.
Frustrated with the coaching staff for not doing what it can to ease Lundqvist's workload.
Frustrated with the front office for wasting Lundqvist's prime.
Frustrated with Lundqvist for not changing his style to compensate for his declining physical abilities.
Frustrated with the coaching staff for not doing what it can to ease Lundqvist's workload.
Frustrated with the front office for wasting Lundqvist's prime.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
He's better than he's shown, but I'd be lying if I didn't acknowledge that his decline is sharper than I expected.
I mean it's beyond the defense hanging him out to dry. At this point he just seems to give up a shitty goal each game. Or if it's not a terrible goal like the second last night, it's just some guy beating him cleanly on a low-medium danger chance that Henrik used to stop every time. The defense in front of him is shit and he's still capable of making saves to bail them out, but then his declining reflexes show up and he gives up a goal that's on no one but him.
I see the fire in him, that's still there. The intensity and passion. It just looks like the physical skills are starting to fail him.
I see the fire in him, that's still there. The intensity and passion. It just looks like the physical skills are starting to fail him.
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Edge
Kris King's Ghost
Frankly, I see a lot of that.
Obviously, a better defense and the right team in front of him would help, as would a different system. But physically, this is a player who looks noticeably slower to react and cover.
The reality is that what we're seeing is a continuation of what started last year and, at best, we have to acknowledge the likelihood that Lundqvist is no longer a top-10 goalie. At worst, he's player a in very rapid decline. Even if we split the difference, this team is in trouble if Lundqvist is even only above average at this point.
Lundqvist could very well come back. But we have to acknowledge that this game keeps getting younger and faster and that this wouldn't be the first time that's come up on our core group of players VERY, VERY quickly.
The problem for Lundqvist is father time. Had he not been such a workhorse for so many years, he likely wouldn't be declining so rapidly. Yes, the defense is porous, but that doesn't explain the clunkers he keeps letting in night after night.
Each season we see more and more issues creeping in, and for the last few years everyone has found other things to blame. Might be time to just acknowledge that his best years are behind him and that he's not going to be the guy that steals 10-20 games a season anymore.
Each season we see more and more issues creeping in, and for the last few years everyone has found other things to blame. Might be time to just acknowledge that his best years are behind him and that he's not going to be the guy that steals 10-20 games a season anymore.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
Some guys also just age differently.
Brian Leetch was another player who got very old, very fast.
More than ever, or at least since the early 90s, this is a young man's game.
It's one of the reasons I'd advocate for moving guys like Nash and Zucc. The latter is particularly hard to swallow, but it's the reality of the new NHL and the current state of the Rangers.
This team, even if it gets better, does not look like a serious contender.
Lundqvist does look like he has officially declined. It kind of reminds me of how Luongo looked his last few years in Vancouver. Then Luongo went to Florida and put up some respectable performances again under a different team concept. It’s up to the coaching staff to realize the weaknesses of the team and adjust the structure and style of play accordingly. Unless they are really OK with an actual “rebuilding” year and don’t mind missing the playoffs or a long shot at the cup.
Long story short, I believe Lundqvist could be an acceptable goalie in the right conditions and adjusting his game accordingly. You have to accept his salary as back payment for standing on his head for close to a decade.
Long story short, I believe Lundqvist could be an acceptable goalie in the right conditions and adjusting his game accordingly. You have to accept his salary as back payment for standing on his head for close to a decade.
CommaSynapse
Registered User
- Nov 2, 2013
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He hasn't been great. You'll get flashes, but the system and his slower reflexes are really hurting him.
This is going to go a bit wider than just Hank, but the system needs to change.
I don't understand how you can play a collapsing man-to-man defensive system and have all your guys at or below the circles and still expect to use an offensive system built around the rush. Not only does it leave the d-men free to fire at the net through screens and deflections, but the guys move way too much trying to chase, and teams know to keep moving and get us out of position.
We get the stretch breakaway to a gassed Grabner or Nash while everyone else changes, and they get negated by the 2 D and the back-checking center.
Just switch to a zone and give the wings more freedom to challenge the point to keep things clearer for Hank.
This is going to go a bit wider than just Hank, but the system needs to change.
I don't understand how you can play a collapsing man-to-man defensive system and have all your guys at or below the circles and still expect to use an offensive system built around the rush. Not only does it leave the d-men free to fire at the net through screens and deflections, but the guys move way too much trying to chase, and teams know to keep moving and get us out of position.
We get the stretch breakaway to a gassed Grabner or Nash while everyone else changes, and they get negated by the 2 D and the back-checking center.
Just switch to a zone and give the wings more freedom to challenge the point to keep things clearer for Hank.
romba
Registered User
When Hank broke into the league 3rd liners were still defensive grinders. They were getting quicker due to the new rules, and were also smarter defensively due to better youth coaching, but offense was not really expected. Top lines were meant to score with the 2nd line offering some depth scoring. Nowadays, 3rd liners are still for the most part defensive grinders but given the chance due to a defensive breakdown many of them can also also rip it top shelf, off-balance, with near-instantaneous releases. Forget the average 2ndnor 1st liner these days versus in the past.
Between this and his declining reflexes every medium danger wrist shot is now a roller coaster for Hank and making things worse is his confidence is rocked as well.
Between this and his declining reflexes every medium danger wrist shot is now a roller coaster for Hank and making things worse is his confidence is rocked as well.
I would agree that this should be the season that Gorton moves from "retool on the fly," or whatever that line was, to a legitimate restructuring of the team. Grabner, Holden, and Nash ought to be good rental options for teams. Scoring, special teams, and defense are all things that teams covet at the deadline.
I'm hesitant to move Zucc until after the season, and it would hurt to move him at all. He seems like an important piece beyond what he brings to the ice, but unfortunately the next 5 years are more important than the next 5 months and tough decisions will have to made.
But as I've said in other threads, I've seen this team in dire straits before, only to right the ship just enough to avoid completely bottoming out. With 4 more years of Hank, and 4 year deals given out to Shattenkirk and Smith, I think they're probably closer to "anything can happen" than they are "look towards next season."
GregSirico
KakkoSZN
RangerLifer
Formerly known as Captain Lindy
Amazing Kreiderman
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- Apr 11, 2011
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Well, the defense should cover the empty net when he's flopping on the ice behind the net
Igor Shestyorkin
#26, the sickest of 'em all.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
We keep talking about the workload.
Does anyone have statistics about his workload compared to his contemporaries?
Does anyone have statistics about his workload compared to his contemporaries?
Inferno
Registered User
so much this. we've been AWFUL in front of him.
with that said, he's been somewhere between mediocre to bad this season, particularly on the "bad" goals...he's giving up way too many of them.
Hank isn't in as big of a decline as some experts here claim he is. (I use the term experts extremely lightly)
His save percentage is above average relative to shot quality he has faced so far. Top 10 going into last nights game. (Credit: Adam Herman)
There are parts of his game that can be worked on as goaltenders have to evolve as the game evolves. The game is very different today than what it was like when he first came in.
He has some technical things he needs to tweak, but he is still capable of being a top 5 goaltender in the league.
His save percentage is above average relative to shot quality he has faced so far. Top 10 going into last nights game. (Credit: Adam Herman)
There are parts of his game that can be worked on as goaltenders have to evolve as the game evolves. The game is very different today than what it was like when he first came in.
He has some technical things he needs to tweak, but he is still capable of being a top 5 goaltender in the league.
Amazing Kreiderman
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So the Rangers are supposed to lurch in the opposite direction of where the league is going to cater to their aging goaltender? No thanks.
You seem to be talking a little bit more than "tweak(ing) the system" here. Shall we go back to 2012 Torts shell hockey? The Rangers are a roster in flux. They need to keep acquiring young assets with speed and put the old out to pasture as quickly as possible, and that might also include AV even though I still intend the roster is a huge problem -- but, for now the first time - in my opinion - the record is even worse than the personnel flaws.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
I really don't think they're as far off as some people think, but it's going to require moving on from certain guys and giving serious consideration to how we approach others.
Three weeks ago, I said this was a team with a lot of intriguing potential. I still feel that way. This is a team that still has two guys with top 6 upside at the center position, possibly even first line, as well as 2 promising young defenseman who could fill two positions on the defense, along with McD and Skjei.
They arguably have one of the top goalie prospects in the sport, along with other interesting, if somewhat uncertain options throughout the system.
This year reminds me a lot more of 2010 than it does 2004.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
Gotta be honest with you, I don't think that's as far off as some might think it is.
We're in the middle of dust storm right now, but we can't lose sight of the fact that we have three high end prospects, a decent sampling of mid-level guys, and some assets that could fetch a nice return.
We also have more than a little talent that is right in a good age range at the NHL level.
We have some glaring holes, but the future looks a whole lot more optimistic if this team adds 1-3 more young pieces.
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