OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: They Blamed Canada

[ChaosAgent]

This is a great example of how biased you are about Pickens, and clueless about athletics in general . Pickens gets hit by the defensive back before he can even jump and then the defender is still draped on his back when he does actually try to jump. Then the ball is overthrown so the player farther away naturally has the advantage. You act as if all things were equal and Pickens was just lazy and go out-jumped. That wasn’t the case at all, and it really should have been a PI call. Try out-jumping someone when they are already leaned into your body for leverage - you can’t.

No one is talking about this as a big turning-point missed PI except for you.

Yes, if he was badly interfered with it's too bad. As it is 6'3 got beat by...what, 5'11 on a jump ball. Pickens is allowed to subtly interfere too.

CBS analyst calls out George Pickens for "getting Mossed’ vs. Colts

The former offensive lineman didn’t hold back

www.behindthesteelcurtain.com

 

[ChaosAgent]

For the record, the Claypool play in Pickett's first start was almost exactly the same.
Yeah maybe the QB underthrew the ball, but we hear so much whining that when the big receiver is covered 1:1 they are actually open. "Throw it up and let him get it." And in both cases the receiver not only failed to get it but the DB got it.

I don't have a problem with QBs underthrowing the big dudes in single coverage. Of course I'd rather Mitch threw a walk-in touchdown, but of the misses I'd take short and a 50/50 ball rather than 10 yards long and a guaranteed incompletion every day.



Edit: the announcer also said Pickens got Mossed. Was it interference? Perhaps. But Pickens is allowed to also subtly interfere. Fact of the matter is he got beat on this play.

Double Edit: NFL has blocked it but the INT and commentary is at the 1:40 mark

 

[Peat]

Throwing it up and letting a guy get it seems a lot different when he and the defender are moving than when they're both standing still waiting for it. I'm not sure I've seen the latter work all that often.

Doesn't change that Pickens got absolutely outjumped and outmuscled.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Throwing it up and letting a guy get it seems a lot different when he and the defender are moving than when they're both standing still waiting for it. I'm not sure I've seen the latter work all that often.

Doesn't change that Pickens got absolutely outjumped and outmuscled.

IDK, in most of Pickens' back shoulder stuff it's not like he's stationary when Pickett releases the football. It's not like Pickens and the DB were ever going to be just standing there 35 yards downfield.

The elite WRs are supposed to have superior body control and proprioception to adjust to balls in midair and to the defenders surrounding them.

In summary:
1) Yes, he's had many good/great plays. He's a very talented player.
2) The DB outplayed him and did a better job of tiptoeing the rules on a 1-on-1 situation. I'll tip my cap to the DB there.

But most importantly:
3) When you're a totally Pain in the Ass of a player and do ridiculous/stupid things that hurt the team's morale, you need to make up for it with the spectacular. Pickens failed to do so here.
4) It's tiring to hear "just chuck it up to Pickens" or "force the ball to Pickens" when a result like this happens.

 

[Peat]

IDK, in most of Pickens' back shoulder stuff it's not like he's stationary when Pickett releases the football. It's not like Pickens and the DB were ever going to be just standing there 35 yards downfield.

The elite WRs are supposed to have superior body control and proprioception to adjust to balls in midair and to the defenders surrounding them.

I'm not sure if you misread me or if I misread you. Because it reads like you're agreeing with me but think you're disagreeing with me... I think.

As you say, yes, most time Pickens and his defender are moving. Which I think is a different kettle of fish to that Trubisky interception, where the DB and Pickens are indeed both stood there waiting for it. Ditto the Claypool interception you mention. I don't like that. That seems to be bad football. You don't see a ton of it, but I suspect the reason for that is it's bad football.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I like that they might play Pickett, after playing Watt with a concussion, let's f*** up more careers Mike Tomlin!

 

[Pens1566]

Pickens is a million dollar talent with a ten cent brain. His performance to drama ratio does not justify his existence on this roster. He was/is/will continue to be a child.

 

[JTG]

Not a DK fan, but there is a lot here.

Pittsburgh Steelers, Penguins, Pirates News, Live Coverage | DK Pittsburgh Sports

Pittsburgh Steelers, Penguins, Pirates News, Live Coverage | DK Pittsburgh Sports

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Pickens is a million dollar talent with a ten cent brain. His performance to drama ratio does not justify his existence on this roster. He was/is/will continue to be a child.

And for how much Tomlin reportedly teaches things beyond football to these guys, he sure has had a lot of assholes on his teams.

 

[Pens x]

I like that they might play Pickett, after playing Watt with a concussion, let's f*** up more careers Mike Tomlin!

He has to maintain the never losing season charade.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Not a DK fan, but there is a lot here.

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Pittsburgh Steelers, Penguins, Pirates News, Live Coverage | DK Pittsburgh Sports

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And for how much Tomlin reportedly teaches things beyond football to these guys, he sure has had a lot of assholes on his teams.

The local media are finally being honest about Tomlin, which is the first step to having him removed.

Unfortunately this should have happened years ago, and we would be in the late stages of his removal.

Now we are years away from AR2 seeing reality.

He will blame injuries.

He will think the team just needs a new OC.

He will think they are close and just a few tweaks away.

Rinse and repeat every offseason.

He refuses to see the real issue, the cancer eating away at this once proud franchise.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Actually have some faith in ARII after the Canada firing. It’s just time to move on. It’s quite clear.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Idk, the fact that this team was still chalking up a good bit of wins with Pickett makes me think he's better than some give him credit for.

Correlation doesn't imply causation of course, but the Steelers seem to have a way better record with Pickett than without Pickett in the last 2 years.

Mitch has a low floor (meaning INT's) and a higher ceiling (meaning more TD's).
KP has a high floor (meaning he doesn't throw INTs) and a low ceiling (he won't throw TD's either)

KP is the ideal Tomlin game manager QB: don't turn it over, play it safe, let the defense win it

So in a vacuum, I don't think KP is that much better than Mitch. But KP plays the game that's more conducive to winning a Tomlin coached game

And KP being injured is really the worst outcome. Not only are the Steelers losing games, but the Tomlin defenders will be like : well he lost his starting QB and his ILB's and Safety have been injured. It's no wonder!

But these problems have existed for nearly 2 decades under Tomlin's watch. But ball washers are gonna do their thing.

 

[pistolpete11]

Actually have some faith in ARII after the Canada firing. It’s just time to move on. It’s quite clear.

Pressure is mounting. Local media has turned. National media is starting to turn. Former players are making headlines saying the Steeler Way is dead.

I really hope they lose out. A 6 game losing streak to end the season would be the cherry on top.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

I like that they might play Pickett, after playing Watt with a concussion, let's f*** up more careers Mike Tomlin!

How is it potentially ruining by playing KP. Lawrence had the same injury in played that same week. KP was going to get the last 2 weeks regardless wouldn’t you want him out there against Cincinnati since that the defense he the most success with

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I would very seriously trade him. This is just pure unacceptable football. He's a bad teammate, he has a bad attitude, and he's not conducive to winning. It's so unfortunate because he's probably the 2nd most talent WR ever in Pittsburgh. If he can't be a good teammate, this isn't going to work. Warren's run is a TD if Pickens blocks.

If a team with a QB trades for him, he probably has 1500 yards and a dozen TDs next year. It's just not happening here.

Khan and Weidl need to blow this back to the studs and rebuild in the image they want.

So I'm in no way condoning his effort on the block or the INT. It's flat out inexcusable.

But this story is being used to deflect criticism of Tomlin. It's the national media who creates storylines so people avoid discussing Tomlin.

Also note this is the 2nd time in like 3 weeks (DJ vs Cincy) that we're questioning a WR's effort. I was told that Tomlin's strength is getting players to play hard? Is that no longer true?

 

[UnrealMachine]

For the record, the Claypool play in Pickett's first start was almost exactly the same.
Yeah maybe the QB underthrew the ball, but we hear so much whining that when the big receiver is covered 1:1 they are actually open. "Throw it up and let him get it." And in both cases the receiver not only failed to get it but the DB got it.

I don't have a problem with QBs underthrowing the big dudes in single coverage. Of course I'd rather Mitch threw a walk-in touchdown, but of the misses I'd take short and a 50/50 ball rather than 10 yards long and a guaranteed incompletion every day.



Edit: the announcer also said Pickens got Mossed. Was it interference? Perhaps. But Pickens is allowed to also subtly interfere. Fact of the matter is he got beat on this play.

Double Edit: NFL has blocked it but the INT and commentary is at the 1:40 mark

So you acknowledge that it was a bad throw and Pickens was interfered with, but your take was still that “he got beat”? The irony is that it’s not as if the ball was even caught at the apex of anyone’s jump on this particular play. But you seem to have an especially targeted gripe against Pickens for every play that doesn’t involve a completed catch followed by a salute to the flag. The fact is the NFL is a business and this is his job where his (current and future) value is being tanked by terrible QBs and offensive scheme. Since you can see how irritated fans are watching the Steelers, imagine how frustrating it is for the players: especially competitive ones and those on rookie contracts hoping to break out for their next contract. And for every instance where he quit on the play, there are 5-10 where he absolutely laid out his body to make a circus catch, and he really shouldn’t have to. Personally, I think this is a great time to quit on the team - and Tomlin in particular. He can take his business elsewhere if that’s what works best for all parties involved.

 

[Power Surge]

You still need a Fire Tomlin chant at the game. That is the next step.

 

[pistolpete11]

So I'm in no way condoning his effort on the block or the INT. It's flat out inexcusable.

But this story is being used to deflect criticism of Tomlin. It's the national media who creates storylines so people avoid discussing Tomlin.

Also note this is the 2nd time in like 3 weeks (DJ vs Cincy) that we're questioning a WR's effort. I was told that Tomlin's strength is getting players to play hard? Is that no longer true?

Quoting for emphasis.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I'm not sure quite how to articulate this, but here it goes....I think the "Steeler Way" has always been a bit overstated or misunderstood. It's not that the Steelers are so professional or righteous or should be put on a pedestal or something. They've had problem players going all the way back to the 70's with Mean Joe getting kicked out of games or Ernie Holmes shooting at a police helicopter. They've had countless guys with troubles, just as every other team has.

However, when it comes to on the field, I believe there is a Steeler Way....or I guess was....you play hard, you play physical, and you play for the team. It's not even really unique to the Steelers. It's just a championship mindset, but we call it the Steeler way because it's the team we follow and they have had a higher standard than most for the better part of 5 decades. I don't think Tomlin has upheld that standard, though, and has let stuff slide for so long that we're now seeing the team's effort questioned. Not one guy here or there, but the entire team.

Frankly, I don't know that he ever did anything to help foster that atmosphere. I think he just walked into a team that already had it in place. Harrison, Troy, Farrior, Clark, Aaron Smith, Hampton...essentially the entire defense....Ward, Miller, Faneca, Ben. As the years went on and they started losing these guys, that team mindset has eroded more and more each year.

Sure, they've had individual players that have come and gone that might fit in with those championship teams. But you look around now and who would? Fitzpatrick, Heyward.....that might be it. I think they have some talented players and I think some of these guys could be molded into being a 'true' Steeler, but they don't have the coach to do it.

This season has been so embarrassing for the Steelers, but I think the straw that will break the camel's back and force Rooney to make changes is the former players saying the Steeler Way is dead. Everything they do is because that's the Steeler Way. If former players are saying it's dead, Rooney can't sit back and do nothing.

The Steeler Way was more about Art than anything else. There was a standard in the organization and no one wanted to let him down. So many told and untold stories in this franchise, but it basically came down to this: if you were a generally talented player that put in the work but had a situation, the Steelers would support you

But if you were talented, but didn't have a decent "bedside manner" you would be moved out quickly.

Under Tomlin this franchise has valued physical traits vs football players and competitiveness. I mean Devin Bush was a great example. Claypool too. Cam Heyward getting drafted was a long time ago. He's probably the last "character" guy they brought on board.

It's pretty obvious that Tomlin can't control all these guys even though is calling card is supposedly a "Leader of Men"

I wouldn't trust Tomlin to plan a 2 car parade

 

[JTG]

This really is an Andy Reid-Philly situation here, I think. It'd be good for everyone. I think the Steelers get an absolute king's ransom for Tomlin, and it will jumpstart a rebuild with a new regime. It will give Khan and Weidl a chance to get a guy they really like and that they mesh with, much like Colbert and Cowher/Tomlin. You need to have that continuity from the GM to the coaches, IMO. Tomlin will make an astronomical amount of money, be given more control of player personnel (if not all of the control), and he can start over. Trading him to Washington makes so much sense for both sides.

I'd give it another year, but if they have a shit year next year, I'm trading TJ and Minkah. Cam will retire. Start drafting guys to start them immediately.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Mitch has a low floor (meaning INT's) and a higher ceiling (meaning more TD's).
KP has a high floor (meaning he doesn't throw INTs) and a low ceiling (he won't throw TD's either)

KP is the ideal Tomlin game manager QB: don't turn it over, play it safe, let the defense win it

So in a vacuum, I don't think KP is that much better than Mitch. But KP plays the game that's more conducive to winning a Tomlin coached game

And KP being injured is really the worst outcome. Not only are the Steelers losing games, but the Tomlin defenders will be like : well he lost his starting QB and his ILB's and Safety have been injured. It's no wonder!

But these problems have existed for nearly 2 decades under Tomlin's watch. But ball washers are gonna do their thing.

KP wasn’t meant to be this kind of safe, scared ass QB, which is what disturbs me the most and what he’ll do to the next guy.

This is what Tomlin turned him into.

I’d rather have seen him flame out playing with balls like he did in college, than turn into this Tomlin Frankenstein QB.

But I disagree about him getting hurt being the worst thing…

It’s actually been a very good thing.

KP played safe ball and helped Tomlin win with his idiotic philosophy, and I have no doubt if he stayed healthy this team would have squeaked out enough wins to get in the playoffs.

His injury is helping expose Tomlin for who he is, which is what AR2 needs to see.

 

[JTG]

I'd start subtracting this offseason - Tomlin, DJ, Chuks. If it is another losing season next year, Pickens, Minkah, Watt.

 

[ChaosAgent]

So you acknowledge that it was a bad throw and Pickens was interfered with, but your take was still that “he got beat”? The irony is that it’s not as if the ball was even caught at the apex of anyone’s jump on this particular play. But you seem to have an especially targeted gripe against Pickens for every play that doesn’t involve a completed catch followed by a salute to the flag. The fact is the NFL is a business and this is his job where his (current and future) value is being tanked by terrible QBs and offensive scheme. Since you can see how irritated fans are watching the Steelers, imagine how frustrating it is for the players: especially competitive ones and those on rookie contracts hoping to break out for their next contract. And for every instance where he quit on the play, there are 5-10 where he absolutely laid out his body to make a circus catch, and he really shouldn’t have to. Personally, I think this is a great time to quit on the team - and Tomlin in particular. He can take his business elsewhere if that’s what works best for all parties involved.

"Salute the flag?"
You are bringing politics into this, and you think you know mine?

George Pickens is a moody 14 year old trapped in an Olympic athlete's body. Despite his considerable gifts, he also runs crappy routes and gets no separation. If we can get a 1st or early 2nd for him, we need to move on.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

KP wasn’t meant to be this kind of safe, scared ass QB, which is what disturbs me the most and what he’ll do to the next guy.

This is what Tomlin turned him into.

I’d rather have seen him flame out playing with balls like he did in college, than turn into this Tomlin Frankenstein QB.

But I disagree about him getting hurt being the worst thing…

It’s actually been a very good thing.

KP played safe ball and helped Tomlin win with his idiotic philosophy, and I have no doubt if he stayed healthy this team would have squeaked out enough wins to get in the playoffs.

His injury is helping expose Tomlin for who he is, which is what AR2 needs to see.

Here's the other component about KP getting hurt: it puts less tape out there to evaluate him. So while KP has 2 years under his belt, he'll only eventually end up playing 1 and another quarter season in total.

The Steelers have a habit of letting players hang around a year too long vs cutting bait a year too soon.

Also, Mitch struggling so bad vs KP is bad bc it's the excuse Tomlin defenders (and the media) will point to: "Tomlin lost his starting QB!"
But they ignore plenty of other backups having success. Hell Jake Browning looks better than anything we've trotted out this year.

 

[Power Surge]

The Steeler Way was more about Art than anything else. There was a standard in the organization and no one wanted to let him down. So many told and untold stories in this franchise, but it basically came down to this: if you were a generally talented player that put in the work but had a situation, the Steelers would support you

But if you were talented, but didn't have a decent "bedside manner" you would be moved out quickly.

Under Tomlin this franchise has valued physical traits vs football players and covalued physical traits vs football players and competitiveness. I mean Devin Bush was a great example. Claypool too. Cam Heyward getting drafted mpetitiveness. I mean Devin Bush was a great example. Claypool too. Cam Heyward getting drafted was a long time ago. He's probably the last "character" guy they brought on board.

It's pretty obvious that Tomlin can't control all these guys even though is calling card is supposedly a "Leader of Men"

I wouldn't trust Tomlin to plan a 2 car parade

While not drafting quality personalities is an issue, player development is more of a problem.

Clown and his staff no name goons and mimes do not know how to properly develop prospects to NFL standard.

He never grew as a coach himself because he was gifted a stacked team and a good organization. No one ever challenged him. I'm pretty sure he's the only coach in the league that still uses the term splash plays. he also still lives in the late 2000's.