OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Super Bowl? Thats like a giant pot of chips or popcorn right?

[pistolpete11]

Good stats.

I'd agree that in an ideal world, things are going well and you don't ask Kenny to do much.

Way I'd put it though is I want them to have a plan for it going wrong, because it usually does, and I want that plan to include Kenny throwing the ball. Not insane amounts, but don't turtle up and hope the run game can do everything.

The way I see it, you lean on the run game, but when you do pass, you look for more chunk plays. No more of this dink and dunk shit. It does a couple of things:

1. It keeps the defense honest so they can't load up the box.
2. You're less reliant on 20 play drives to score a TD.
3. It gives Pickett some experience making those type of throws that are needed when you are coming from behind.

I'm not expecting Pickett to throw 60-yard dimes like Ben, but there's no reason to not take some shots with Pickens on the outside and Muth over the middle....unless the OL is going to get Pickett killed.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

The way I see it, you lean on the run game, but when you do pass, you look for more chunk plays. No more of this dink and dunk shit. It does a couple of things:

1. It keeps the defense honest so they can't load up the box.
2. You're less reliant on 20 play drives to score a TD.
3. It gives Pickett some experience making those type of throws that are needed when you are coming from behind.

I'm not expecting Pickett to throw 60-yard dimes like Ben, but there's no reason to not take some shots with Pickens on the outside and Muth over the middle....unless the OL is going to get Pickett killed.

Yea they can't go into the year with the same philosophy of the past few seasons. That's going to stunt KP from a developmental standpoint, as well as a physical one (meaning he's likely to take a beating again with defenses pinning their ears back)

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

He admitted having relations (oral) with this woman. Obviously illegal due to Cali's age of consent. That is a fact.
He was long gone after the gang rape occurred. That is also a fact.

When interviewing people who state they have a conviction, I ask them the circumstances of what happened and I measure their remorsefulness. Having sex with a 17 yo is different than a 15 yo and I'd feel differently about whichever facts are revealed.

Considering the circumstances, I'm not going to skewer the guy because your standard is that he should have asked for ID. I mean seriously, who all here has asked for ID before hooking up with a girl? I doubt I'll see many hands.

So I guess you can put me down for being a negligent idiot along with probably 99% of NFL players and 90% of this forum who did the same things in college. So should they be out of jobs too?

This dude would not even be part of the discussion if not for a couple factors:

1) He was at a party where some bad shit went down and he was part of the vortex
2) He's semi-famous

If the Steelers hired him, I'd have no moral issues with it.

1. Its not a fact he was gone. Its “alleged by a witness” he was gone.

So im not letting him off the hook in a worst case scenario and that point is very important to my argument. While there is reasonable doubt to his guilt, there is still actual doubt to his innocence.

2. You didnt actually answer my question. If you have a choice between 2 competent applicants and one has this baggage and the other doesnt, who are you hiring? If your answer is still, well if i think hes a sorry idiot, i dont know how you still have that authority. Because there is zero evidence or question if the other guy is either an idiot or callously evil. And their is no upside to take on that risk.

Yeah, i understand when stars get preferential treatment with accusations, because their utility is higher. But a punter?

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

1. Its not a fact he was gone. Its “alleged by a witness” he was gone.

So im not letting him off the hook in a worst case scenario and that point is very important to my argument. While there is reasonable doubt to his guilt, there is still actual doubt to his innocence.

2. You didnt actually answer my question. If you have a choice between 2 competent applicants and one has this baggage and the other doesnt, who are you hiring? If your answer is still, well if i think hes a sorry idiot, i dont know how you still have that authority. Because there is zero evidence or question if the other guy is either an idiot or callously evil. And their is no upside to take on that risk.

Yeah, i understand when stars get preferential treatment with accusations, because their utility is higher. But a punter?

1. Did you read the article? The video itself was played and he's not anywhere to be heard or seen while the gangrape was occurring. There is also a witness to that effect. So unless there's proof otherwise, it's pretty clear with the evidence at hand he was gone before this took place

2. This is a strawman argument and that is why I didn't answer directly. We don't know if this dude is even competent at his job bc he hasn't taken an NFL snap. What is true is that he's being denied the opportunity to even be an "applicant". I'd encourage you to dive deep into the Brian Banks story because there's a ton of similarities here.

That is what I'm pissed about: the jumping to conclusions. People don't want to wait for the facts

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

1. Did you read the article? The video itself was played and he's not anywhere to be heard or seen while the gangrape was occurring. There is also a witness to that effect. So unless there's proof otherwise, it's pretty clear with the evidence at hand he was gone before this took place

2. This is a strawman argument and that is why I didn't answer directly. We don't know if this dude is even competent at his job bc he hasn't taken an NFL snap. What is true is that he's being denied the opportunity to even be an "applicant". I'd encourage you to dive deep into the Brian Banks story because there's a ton of similarities here.

That is what I'm pissed about: the jumping to conclusions. People don't want to wait for the facts

I read the article.

He’s not on video but th doesn't man he wasnt there at all or didnt hand off a drunk 17 year old to his buddies.

And a witness (lets assume they are earnest) says he left around 12:30. It doesnt mean he actually left at all let alone that witness being accurate about the time months later.

There is no strawman. He is a job applicant that was denied a job because there are legitimate questions/accusations about if he is a criminal. The other couple hundred applicants dont have that issue. That in an of itsself isnt jumping to conclusions, its mitigating risk. When there are tons of people that are roughly equivalent in skill, why would any team ever take on additional risk for no reason.

Now on the other side, if anyone automatically assumes he is guilty, thats an issue as well, no doubt.

But i don't see why anyone wouldn't throw that application right in the trash, especially when thaeee are 100 guys lined up right behind him without that question mark.

 

[JTG]

Signed Monte Pottebaum as FB, talking about moving Kendrick Green to FB (please don't), I'm sure they try to bring Derek Watt back, and Tomlin has said he sees Heyward as a FB.

We still will not use a FB this year.

 

[JTG]

...and speaking of Connor Heyward. He had 12 rec of 17 targets for a 12 ypc average. He ran the ball twice for a 13.5 ypc average. I think they need to get the kid the ball a bit more. Don't re-sign Snell, make Heyward the 3rd RB and he can fill in at TE and FB too.

Jaylen Warren needs more work too. Keep Najee fresh.

 

[xlm34]

The niners right out of the gate is going to be a good test for a defense that’s going to have a lot of new faces.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I read the article.

He’s not on video but th doesn't man he wasnt there at all or didnt hand off a drunk 17 year old to his buddies.

And a witness (lets assume they are earnest) says he left around 12:30. It doesnt mean he actually left at all let alone that witness being accurate about the time months later.

There is no strawman. He is a job applicant that was denied a job because there are legitimate questions/accusations about if he is a criminal. The other couple hundred applicants dont have that issue. That in an of itsself isnt jumping to conclusions, its mitigating risk. When there are tons of people that are roughly equivalent in skill, why would any team ever take on additional risk for no reason.

Now on the other side, if anyone automatically assumes he is guilty, thats an issue as well, no doubt.

But i don't see why anyone wouldn't throw that application right in the trash, especially when thaeee are 100 guys lined up right behind him without that question mark.

You're contradicting yourself, or are at the very least on the edge of doing so.

You say we shouldn't assume guilt or innocence. But there's literally no evidence of him being involved in this gang rape. "Well he could have...." Yea and there's no evidence of him doing so. You're making a ton of presumptions. My stance is based on facts, meaning he's not on video and a witness supports what the video says. So we should ignore those items just because?

These assumptions would get thrown out of court so fast it isn't even funny

 

[Captain Hook]

Signed Monte Pottebaum as FB, talking about moving Kendrick Green to FB (please don't), I'm sure they try to bring Derek Watt back, and Tomlin has said he sees Heyward as a FB.

We still will not use a FB this year.

...and speaking of Connor Heyward. He had 12 rec of 17 targets for a 12 ypc average. He ran the ball twice for a 13.5 ypc average. I think they need to get the kid the ball a bit more. Don't re-sign Snell, make Heyward the 3rd RB and he can fill in at TE and FB too.

Jaylen Warren needs more work too. Keep Najee fresh.

I'm not sure what to think about the Steelers lack of fullback use. I miss the days of Kreider clearing the way for Bettis and just running the ball right down the opponents throat. I'd love to see that again but the game has changed and hardly any team uses the FB today. I do agree they need to find a way to get Connor Heyward the ball more. It's just a matter of how and from which position.

The niners right out of the gate is going to be a good test for a defense that’s going to have a lot of new faces.

That Niners game to open the season seems like a game primed for overreaction by the local Yinzers. I know you can say that with almost every game, but if they lose, it will be all doom and gloom; Pickett will be a bust, etc. If they win, the same Yinzers will be planning their Super Bowl trip.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Caping up for someone who admitted to statutory rape?

Because theres no direct evidence he took part in a worse crime?

At best its still a he said she said, toss up. A witness saying X left around 12:30 is hardly rock solid. Its enough for reasonable doubt in a criminal case, but i wouldn't bet anything that mattered to me on it.

Guess we were both incorrect on this issue. Oral sex is not considered rape according to CA (see below)

So the facts have changed where he has committed no crime and there's no evidence he did so.

***************
PC 261.5 statutory rape is “unlawful sexual intercourse is the act of sexual intercourse with a minor who is not the perpetrator's spouse. A minor is someone under the age of 18 years.”

Sexual intercourse is any sexual penetration of the vagina by the penis, no matter how slight, and ejaculation is not required.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

...and speaking of Connor Heyward. He had 12 rec of 17 targets for a 12 ypc average. He ran the ball twice for a 13.5 ypc average. I think they need to get the kid the ball a bit more. Don't re-sign Snell, make Heyward the 3rd RB and he can fill in at TE and FB too.

Jaylen Warren needs more work too. Keep Najee fresh.

Just devil's advocate but maybe his success came from the infrequency of his use? I don't disagree though he could be more helpful. Seems like Canada would like the opportunity to involve him more, to show his coaching creativity. Of course, I don't know as I trust Canada to actually BE creative is a productive way.

 

[JTG]

I'm not sure what to think about the Steelers lack of fullback use. I miss the days of Kreider clearing the way for Bettis and just running the ball right down the opponents throat. I'd love to see that again but the game has changed and hardly any team uses the FB today. I do agree they need to find a way to get Connor Heyward the ball more. It's just a matter of how and from which position.


That Niners game to open the season seems like a game primed for overreaction by the local Yinzers. I know you can say that with almost every game, but if they lose, it will be all doom and gloom; Pickett will be a bust, etc. If they win, the same Yinzers will be planning their Super Bowl trip.

I don't necessarily think you can have a blocking only FB anymore. You're essentially playing with 10 men on the field and you're tipping your hat to what you're doing. It was a different league where you line up man on man and may the strongest line win. That's why I think Heyward is the best option for that role. He can really catch the ball, he was a RB in college, and he can block. I would really like to see us do some unique things with the FB though. I think with how this line is set up, if you add a FB, Najee isn't getting hit for 5 yards and by then he'll have a head of steam and will be almost impossible to take down with one guy. That's my biggest knock on Najee, he really is not an explosive athlete. They need to do things to get him some steam up before taking on contact.

I think Kenny is the QB here regardless of how this season goes. They are going to give him 4 years to figure this out and continue to surround him with talent. It kind of goes back to my back and forth with Peat earlier - if we have a shit season, I don't see any possibility of us taking a QB even if one falls to us. They are riding or dying with Kenny.

Just devil's advocate but maybe his success came from the infrequency of his use? I don't disagree though he could be more helpful. Seems like Canada would like the opportunity to involve him more, to show his coaching creativity. Of course, I don't know as I trust Canada to actually BE creative is a productive way.

I'm not sure about that from the eye test. Warren for much of the season looked way more explosive than Najee. I don't think spreading the ball around is something Tomlin has ever done. He likes having his guys that get all the carriers or catches, specifically with his RBs - he likes having a "bell-cow" as he puts it. He'd rather run Najee into a wall 40 times than give the ball to another back for a change of pace.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

You're contradicting yourself, or are at the very least on the edge of doing so.

You say we shouldn't assume guilt or innocence. But there's literally no evidence of him being involved in this gang rape. "Well he could have...." Yea and there's no evidence of him doing so. You're making a ton of presumptions. My stance is based on facts, meaning he's not on video and a witness supports what the video says. So we should ignore those items just because?

These assumptions would get thrown out of court so fast it isn't even funny

Im not contradicting myself at all and im not talking about court (ive said on more than one occasion there is reasonable doubt)

My argument is simple:

If i’m hiring or interviewing etc and there is a line of potentially viable candidates, anyone with a black mark (confirmed or alleged) goes right into the trash bin.

And its not an assumption of guilt but the possibility of it is enough to not take on additional risk for little to no reward.

If the guy is innocent, oh well, the next man up gets to reap the reward because he didnt put himself in that situation.

Guess we were both incorrect on this issue. Oral sex is not considered rape according to CA (see below)

So the facts have changed where he has committed no crime and there's no evidence he did so.

***************
PC 261.5 statutory rape is “unlawful sexual intercourse is the act of sexual intercourse with a minor who is not the perpetrator's spouse. A minor is someone under the age of 18 years.”

Sexual intercourse is any sexual penetration of the vagina by the penis, no matter how slight, and ejaculation is not required.

Yeah definitely didn't know that, so he is fortunate there, even if most would see it as a technicality.

 

[Peat]

...and speaking of Connor Heyward. He had 12 rec of 17 targets for a 12 ypc average. He ran the ball twice for a 13.5 ypc average. I think they need to get the kid the ball a bit more. Don't re-sign Snell, make Heyward the 3rd RB and he can fill in at TE and FB too.

Jaylen Warren needs more work too. Keep Najee fresh.

I really liked what I saw of Heyward last year but I don't think I want him in a position where he's one early injury from having to take 10-15 injuries. I'm real dubious as to whether he's got enough juice to succeed there and you throw away the game plan if he doesn't.

Both of Heyward's carries came in motion coming around from TE. One he got ridiculous amounts of empty room and fell over when trying to shake the pursuit, one was a third and short where he got tackled just about right away but was able to fall for a good gain. Neither are examples of him being a good guy to hand the ball to for a traditional carry out of RB where defenders are planning on how to get to him before the ball is even snapped.

I really like Heyward lining up at TE or at Slot with the idea he can either run the route or shift to become an in-motion blocker. I like him at FB as an in-motion blocker who can take the carry if needed or pick up a route. That works well with his skillset and where the Steelers seem to want to go in terms of using physicality. As a RB? I dunno. I dunno that he's fast enough for that attention.

 

[JTG]

NFLDraftbuzz.com came out with a re-draft thing. It's pretty interesting. Goes all the way back to 2011.

The Steelers GM VS. Autodraft 2011

The Steelers GM VS. Autodraft 2011

www.nfldraftbuzz.com

 

[JTG]

I really liked what I saw of Heyward last year but I don't think I want him in a position where he's one early injury from having to take 10-15 injuries. I'm real dubious as to whether he's got enough juice to succeed there and you throw away the game plan if he doesn't.

Both of Heyward's carries came in motion coming around from TE. One he got ridiculous amounts of empty room and fell over when trying to shake the pursuit, one was a third and short where he got tackled just about right away but was able to fall for a good gain. Neither are examples of him being a good guy to hand the ball to for a traditional carry out of RB where defenders are planning on how to get to him before the ball is even snapped.

I really like Heyward lining up at TE or at Slot with the idea he can either run the route or shift to become an in-motion blocker. I like him at FB as an in-motion blocker who can take the carry if needed or pick up a route. That works well with his skillset and where the Steelers seem to want to go in terms of using physicality. As a RB? I dunno. I dunno that he's fast enough for that attention.

I agree. My hope is he has made progress this offseason and through camp and preseason because I think if he is used a hybrid FB/TE/Slot, he could be a really useful player for the offense. He really hasn't played a ton of football. His last year at Michigan State he was barely utilized. From what I hav seen of him, I'd like to see more, specifically him in receiving situations. Kenny likes throwing to him and he's made some unbelievable catches.

 

[wheelz87]

Catching San Fran early could be good, depending on what’s going on with their qb issues.

 

[Peat]

For those who have The Athletic, this Hines Ward article on his year of coaching is a great read

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I agree. My hope is he has made progress this offseason and through camp and preseason because I think if he is used a hybrid FB/TE/Slot, he could be a really useful player for the offense. He really hasn't played a ton of football. His last year at Michigan State he was barely utilized. From what I hav seen of him, I'd like to see more, specifically him in receiving situations. Kenny likes throwing to him and he's made some unbelievable catches.

My heart is all excited with all these new toys and believe that we'll utilize different sets and schemes
My head says that Canada is still the OC and we'll run the same personnel as we saw the previous 2 years.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

My heart is all excited with all these new toys and believe that we'll utilize different sets and schemes
My head says that Canada is still the OC and we'll run the same personnel as we saw the previous 2 years.

It's sorta the last thing, right? Is it the QB play? Is it the poor line play? Is it coaching?

 

[JTG]

My heart is all excited with all these new toys and believe that we'll utilize different sets and schemes
My head says that Canada is still the OC and we'll run the same personnel as we saw the previous 2 years.

The silver lining of this entire situation is that Canada now has enough rope to hang himself here. There really is no excuse. Sophomore QB. Healthy Najee. Drastically upgraded line. Two good pass catching TEs. A diverse WR room.

If this shit fails, it's on him.

 

[JTG]

I was at a bar and there were a bunch of us talking about the Steelers and we were shit talking Canada. A guy who was sort of on the periphery of the conversation said, "The way people talk about Canada is the same way they talked about Bruce Arians. Pittsburgh Steelers fans always hate the offensive coordinator."

That was a long time ago, but he is sort of right.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I was at a bar and there were a bunch of us talking about the Steelers and we were shit talking Canada. A guy who was sort of on the periphery of the conversation said, "The way people talk about Canada is the same way they talked about Bruce Arians. Pittsburgh Steelers fans always hate the offensive coordinator."

That was a long time ago, but he is sort of right.

I feel like we (generally) liked Chan and Wiz?

 

[xlm34]

I was at a bar and there were a bunch of us talking about the Steelers and we were shit talking Canada. A guy who was sort of on the periphery of the conversation said, "The way people talk about Canada is the same way they talked about Bruce Arians. Pittsburgh Steelers fans always hate the offensive coordinator."

That was a long time ago, but he is sort of right.

Oh he’s absolutely right — people were so happy when Arians got let go. I don’t really blame them for feeling that way either. Ben may have died if he played in an Arians system for much longer.

He was a guy who was probably a better HC than he was coordinator.