OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Sneaking up onto training camp

[WickedWrister]

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think Khan absolutely botched the WR situation in the off-season, especially with the Aiyuk negotiation. He was playing hardball with the 49ers to get Aiyuk and it ended biting him in the ass. The Steelers needed WR help far too much for the level Khan was playing at in those negotiations. Khan playing hardball has worked in the past, but you can’t deny it backfired miserably in the Aiyuk situation.

I'd also throw out that if the Steelers didn't do the DJ for Jackson trade, the Aiyuk deal also very likely would have gone through. I think Jackson has been fine but they needed a WR2 far more than they needed a CB2.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

There's poor QB play across the league.

There's only a few top guys: PH, Allen, Stroud looks to be in that level. Hell even Purdy didn't look all that great yesterday.

 

[MrBrightside]

There's poor QB play across the league.

There's only a few top guys: PH, Allen, Stroud looks to be in that level. Hell even Purdy didn't look all that great yesterday.

I think this is all a product of the evolution in the sport from the days when Lamar Jackson and Jayden Daniels and Justin Fields and Anthony Richardson would have been made into WR or TE. Colleges started following the high school model of making your best athlete the QB, which certainly makes a lot of sense at that collegiate level, but then you have QB's coming into the NFL who've relied too heavily on their athleticism below and who haven't developed and/or don't have the skill sets to be pocket passers. Stroud really stands out as probably the only guy to come into the NFL the last few drafts who had the skill set to play at this level, and that's at least in part because he's not the athlete that Young and Daniels and others are so he actually developed as a passer far more than most.

 

[JTG]

I wasn't fully on the Fields train. I think I am now. I see enough there. This could fail miraculously, but even if it does, we are coming into a good run of QBs. Give Fields the reigns and let him roll.

I think this is all a product of the evolution in the sport from the days when Lamar Jackson and Jayden Daniels and Justin Fields and Anthony Richardson would have been made into WR or TE. Colleges started following the high school model of making your best athlete the QB, which certainly makes a lot of sense at that collegiate level, but then you have QB's coming into the NFL who've relied too heavily on their athleticism below and who haven't developed and/or don't have the skill sets to be pocket passers. Stroud really stands out as probably the only guy to come into the NFL the last few drafts who had the skill set to play at this level, and that's at least in part because he's not the athlete that Young and Daniels and others are so he actually developed as a passer far more than most.

I didn't think Stroud would be anywhere near as good as he is in the NFL when he was coming out of college. I watched a ton of him...didn't see it. It's an art not a science.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think Jackson and Allen broke a lot of GMs brains and they keep chasing the dragon to get their own version of that. Issue is those two are the exception to the trend, not the trend itself.

For every one guy like Jackson that goes in round 1, you'll get a dozen guys like Fields, Haskins, Richardson and Young.

 

[Peat]

Put me down on the Steelers botched their WR situation.

I was absolutely down for trading Diontae Johnson.

I was not down for replacing him with Van Jefferson.

I also suspect that the lack of a better replacement wasn't about players not wanting to come here, it was about Khan playing hardball and/or not being that interested. Most guys in the league will listen if you talk big sums of money and most of Khan's free agents have been cheap for who they are. We heard from Kaboly that Boyd wanted to come here but the Steelers wouldn't offer enough. Boyd isn't a solution, but it is an example of how things are approached.

And right now it's hurting. It's not just hurting in the pass game either. Jefferson and Austin are not the guys you want out there for run game blocking either.

They screwed up.


I also don't buy the whole "it's all about Dan Moore" angle. At best, it's unnecessary. The Steelers are, as ever, putting out what they think is the best team for that given game. They don't really do future planning. As long as Moore is a better LT than Jones and a worse RT (in their eyes), this is how it will be. It doesn't take bias or pandering or anything like that to get there.

I despise this team's lack of long range thinking but the idea that the Moore-Jones thing is about anything more than that... nah.


Oh and re something @Empoleon8771 said earlier - you could argue that Trice is potentially making Donte Jackson seem superfluous, but I don't think that was predictable when we got Jackson.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Oh and re something @Empoleon8771 said earlier - you could argue that Trice is potentially making Donte Jackson seem superfluous, but I don't think that was predictable when we got Jackson.

I do think Trice is making Jackson seem superfluous and agree you couldn't make that prediction at the time. That being said, I think you could have traded for a legitimate WR2 and found a Van Jefferson caliber CB2 (meaning a CB3/4 in your CB2 spot) and be better off than trading for Jackson and having Van Jefferson as your WR2.

I think this is especially true due to how the money is spent on the defense vs offense on this team. The defense is still stacked even without a legitimate CB2 because the DL, LB and S groups are all good to elite. They needed a $10 million WR2 far more than they needed a $10 million CB2.

 

[JTG]

I do think Trice is making Jackson seem superfluous and agree you couldn't make that prediction at the time. That being said, I think you could have traded for a legitimate WR2 and found a Van Jefferson caliber CB2 (meaning a CB3/4 in your CB2 spot) and be better off than trading for Jackson and having Van Jefferson as your WR2.

I think this is especially true due to how the money is spent on the defense vs offense on this team. The defense is still stacked even without a legitimate CB2 because the DL, LB and S groups are all good to elite. They needed a $10 million WR2 far more than they needed a $10 million CB2.

To bet on Trice to stay healthy would be a fools game. He has never been healthy a season since high school.

 

[xlm34]

I’m guessing this also counts the PI calls, but it’ll be cool if all their big plays don’t get called back.

 

[Andy99]

I think Khan absolutely botched the WR situation in the off-season, especially with the Aiyuk negotiation. He was playing hardball with the 49ers to get Aiyuk and it ended biting him in the ass. The Steelers needed WR help far too much for the level Khan was playing at in those negotiations. Khan playing hardball has worked in the past, but you can’t deny it backfired miserably in the Aiyuk situation.

I'd also throw out that if the Steelers didn't do the DJ for Jackson trade, the Aiyuk deal also very likely would have gone through. I think Jackson has been fine but they needed a WR2 far more than they needed a CB2.

I don’t think that the reason we didn’t get Aiyuk had anything to do with the negotiation…I think Aiyuk didn’t really want to come here and when push came to shove he signed the 49ers offer and always would sign the offer on the table for him there because he wanted to be there (hence his rejection of other teams)…his agent was using us for leverage…that’s not to excuse Khan, who did botch the WR situation

 

[Empoleon8771]

To bet on Trice to stay healthy would be a fools game. He has never been healthy a season since high school.

This team also has Sutton and guys like Peterson are still available in free agency. None of those guys are actual CB2, but CB2 on this team isn't super important because of how good everyone else is on the defense.

I wouldn't bet on Trice being a legitimate CB2 guy going forward, but having someone like Trice or Peterson as your CB2 hurts you far less than having Van Jefferson as your WR2. It was a complete misjudgment by Khan to allocate the assets as he did for the CB2 and WR2 roles.

I don’t think that the reason we didn’t get Aiyuk had anything to do with the negotiation…I think Aiyuk didn’t really want to come here and when push came to shove he signed the 49ers offer and always would sign the offer on the table for him there because he wanted to be there (hence his rejection of other teams)…his agent was using us for leverage…that’s not to excuse Khan, who did botch the WR situation

I think Aiyuk did want to come to the Steelers if he was leaving the 49ers and I think the Steelers would have gotten the compensation for the trade done if it was Johnson, a 2nd and a 3rd for Aiyuk.

 

[WickedWrister]

I think this is all a product of the evolution in the sport from the days when Lamar Jackson and Jayden Daniels and Justin Fields and Anthony Richardson would have been made into WR or TE. Colleges started following the high school model of making your best athlete the QB, which certainly makes a lot of sense at that collegiate level, but then you have QB's coming into the NFL who've relied too heavily on their athleticism below and who haven't developed and/or don't have the skill sets to be pocket passers. Stroud really stands out as probably the only guy to come into the NFL the last few drafts who had the skill set to play at this level, and that's at least in part because he's not the athlete that Young and Daniels and others are so he actually developed as a passer far more than most.

Yeah this is one part of the explanation. QB rushing yards per game was something like 35 ypg in week 1 which would be an all time high. There has never been better athletes at the position than we have now. But there’s also just a decrease in passing efficiency the last 4-5 years. Increase in 2 high safety has neutered deep passing. I’ll see if I can find the historical rush/pass EPA graphic, it’s one of my favorites.

 

[Andy99]

This team also has Sutton and guys like Peterson are still available in free agency. None of those guys are actual CB2, but CB2 on this team isn't super important because of how good everyone else is on the defense.

I wouldn't bet on Trice being a legitimate CB2 guy going forward, but having someone like Trice or Peterson as your CB2 hurts you far less than having Van Jefferson as your WR2. It was a complete misjudgment by Khan to allocate the assets as he did for the CB2 and WR2 roles.



I think Aiyuk did want to come to the Steelers if he was leaving the 49ers and I think the Steelers would have gotten the compensation for the trade done if it was Johnson, a 2nd and a 3rd for Aiyuk.

We didn’t have DJ at the time of our pursuit, in fact that’s why we pursued Aiyuk…so that’s not a realistic take

 

[MrBrightside]

We didn’t have DJ at the time of our pursuit, in fact that’s why we pursued Aiyuk…so that’s not a realistic take

If they had held onto DJ and had him to include in the Aiyuk deal, I'd be very confident that it would have gotten done.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If they had held onto DJ and had him to include in the Aiyuk deal, I'd be very confident that it would have gotten done.

Not only this, but wasn't Jackson going to be cut by the Panthers anyway? You could have realistically gotten both if you were that concerned about CB2 as well.

Just a huge misjudgment by Khan on that one.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Slightly more passing to the MOF, but still not enough to really threaten defenses.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1835483317828731304

 

[Peat]

I do think Trice is making Jackson seem superfluous and agree you couldn't make that prediction at the time. That being said, I think you could have traded for a legitimate WR2 and found a Van Jefferson caliber CB2 (meaning a CB3/4 in your CB2 spot) and be better off than trading for Jackson and having Van Jefferson as your WR2.

I think this is especially true due to how the money is spent on the defense vs offense on this team. The defense is still stacked even without a legitimate CB2 because the DL, LB and S groups are all good to elite. They needed a $10 million WR2 far more than they needed a $10 million CB2.

I agree with a lot of that but would add that they thought they could add a 14m WR (this year) as well as the restructured Donte Jackson, so this didn't have to be an either or. They could have done both.

I don’t think that the reason we didn’t get Aiyuk had anything to do with the negotiation…I think Aiyuk didn’t really want to come here and when push came to shove he signed the 49ers offer and always would sign the offer on the table for him there because he wanted to be there (hence his rejection of other teams)…his agent was using us for leverage…that’s not to excuse Khan, who did botch the WR situation

This seems quite plausible but at the same time, I do wonder what would have happened if the Steelers had met the 49ers price earlier in the process, or if they're given a better offer to Aiyuk (I think I saw one report that it wasn't even 28m). I think, if you trust the media reports, that the Steelers were offering minimum acceptable prices and waiting for things to move their way... and as such, maybe it is a different story without that.

I also think looking at it that way makes the botch thing all the more glaring. You can't leave a hole in your WR corps for a guy you're not even chasing hard.

 

[MrBrightside]

Pickens finishing yesterday with 2 catches for 29 yards may be the most misleading stat line I've ever seen.

 

[Ryder71]

Slightly more passing to the MOF, but still not enough to really threaten defenses.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1835483317828731304

It would look a lot better if not for the offensive PI in game 1 on Pickens and the Jones hold on the Pickens catch with Surtain all over him for 50+ yards. That was a perfect pass by Fields! Not to mention Pickens TD called back because of the VJ pick. All of those plays should have counted. And that's not me looking at it through Black and Gold glasses. Those were pretty ticky tacky calls at best!

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Pickens finishing yesterday with 2 catches for 29 yards may be the most misleading stat line I've ever seen.

Well there are gonna be two players that have misleading statlines in terms of their value to this team:

Pickens and Watt

Teams are going to double and triple team those guys so they don't wreck your day. It's a smart strategy to let Scottie Pippen beat you while you contain Michael Jordan.

 

[WickedWrister]

Week 2 QB Efficiency

NOT a good week across the league for QB play

 

[Empoleon8771]

This seems quite plausible but at the same time, I do wonder what would have happened if the Steelers had met the 49ers price earlier in the process, or if they're given a better offer to Aiyuk (I think I saw one report that it wasn't even 28m). I think, if you trust the media reports, that the Steelers were offering minimum acceptable prices and waiting for things to move their way... and as such, maybe it is a different story without that.

I also think looking at it that way makes the botch thing all the more glaring. You can't leave a hole in your WR corps for a guy you're not even chasing hard.

Yeah this is the more frustrating thing to me with how that went down. Khan was playing it as if Aiyuk was a luxury and he'd only do a deal on his terms. That doesn't mean you go out and give the 49ers and Aiyuk anything they want, but not every deal is going to fall in your lap like Fields or Wilson did.

A good GM knows when to play hardball and when to get the guy he needs. Khan has shown to be terrific at playing hardball, but he has not shown the ability to just get the guy this team needs. If you want to win a super bowl, not every deal is going to be a massive win in value.

 

[TooManyHumans]

2-0 on the road with an offensive line in flux and Fields as our QB. No turnovers. I will take it all day long. Yeah, they obviously need to get better on offense and need another WR, but this season has gone amazingly well so far imo. Hopefully Roman Wilson can add something to the offense but I think we still need to look outside for another WR.

 

[WickedWrister]

Weeks 1 + 2

Fields 15th in EPA+CPOE composite score
8th in CPOE
23rd in EPA/play