blundluntman
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Hart Trophy Tournament (1969-00) Round 4: 1971 Bobby Orr vs 1993 Mario Lemieux
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Nathaniel Skywalker
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Crow
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Would have been Mario but 60 games kills it for me. You don’t get credit for pace from me. If you can’t play you get no credit. Not really that close to me. Great 3/4 of a season though.
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jigglysquishy
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Orr had a PPG 1.72x 10th in the league
Lemieux had a PPG 1.79x 10th in the league
There's a clear Lemieux offensive lead, but I think Orr's insane offense gets underrated. It's not just insane for a defensemen. It's legitimately 5ish best offensive peak ever.
Until his knee injury in 1973, I think Orr was legitimately a top 5 defensive defensemen in the league. Maybe even the best in 1970.
Just insane levels of dominance. It's hard to comprehend a McDavid esque offense AND a Bergeron esque defense at the same time.
Lemieux had a PPG 1.79x 10th in the league
There's a clear Lemieux offensive lead, but I think Orr's insane offense gets underrated. It's not just insane for a defensemen. It's legitimately 5ish best offensive peak ever.
Until his knee injury in 1973, I think Orr was legitimately a top 5 defensive defensemen in the league. Maybe even the best in 1970.
Just insane levels of dominance. It's hard to comprehend a McDavid esque offense AND a Bergeron esque defense at the same time.
JackSlater
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It's Orr with some distance between them. It would be a great argument if Lemieux didn't miss over a quarter of the season, but he did. With Orr you get an elite defensive player for a full season, with Lemieux you get little to no defensive value for around three quarters of the season. Orr is likely the best possession player ever, Lemieux in 1993 was no slouch but he isn't on Orr's level in that regard. Lemieux's only edge is on offence, and he scored 21 points more than Orr did. Lemieux outscored Orr by 15%, which is obviously impressive, but he also played in a league where scoring was 16% higher. Orr outscored the number ten scorer that year by ~83%, Lemieux outscored the tenth leading scorer by ~30%. Orr's gap would grow if you removed teammates for both of them. Even accepting that Lemieux played in a strong league I'd say that offence is pretty close.
Orr played with the best offensive player that either of them played with that season in Esposito, but I think that Pittsburgh was a more talented team. Lemieux's linemates were all star level players when near their peaks (Stevens and Tocchet) and he also had a HHOF offensive defenceman in Murphy, plus had Francis and Jagr available for power play duty. Boston also had a deep and talented group of forwards, but I don't see any HHOF players other than Esposito without Orr's influence. Lemieux did play in a stronger league than Orr did, so I suppose he can have something of a boost from that, but there isn't much else Orr could have done. Boston had 7 of the league's top ten scorers that year, basically Orr and two forward lines, and the main thing they had in common other than being Bruins is that they all got to play with Orr. Both absolutely dominated at even strength - Boston dominated to around 3.2 goals for vs one against whenever Orr was on the ice at even strength, Pittsburgh scored around 2.3 goals for to one against when Lemieux was on the ice at even strength. Lemieux is probably the greatest power play player ever while Orr was merely great, so that's an edge for Lemieux. Orr was a much better penalty killer, which is a bigger edge.
To put it more succinctly, I'd say that Lemieux has a small edge offensively but Orr comfortably beats him outside of that. It's a very interesting comparison if Lemieux had been able to play the whole season. No shame in an all time great season and probably the most impressive, all things considered, season I can think of in any sport that I follow.
Orr played with the best offensive player that either of them played with that season in Esposito, but I think that Pittsburgh was a more talented team. Lemieux's linemates were all star level players when near their peaks (Stevens and Tocchet) and he also had a HHOF offensive defenceman in Murphy, plus had Francis and Jagr available for power play duty. Boston also had a deep and talented group of forwards, but I don't see any HHOF players other than Esposito without Orr's influence. Lemieux did play in a stronger league than Orr did, so I suppose he can have something of a boost from that, but there isn't much else Orr could have done. Boston had 7 of the league's top ten scorers that year, basically Orr and two forward lines, and the main thing they had in common other than being Bruins is that they all got to play with Orr. Both absolutely dominated at even strength - Boston dominated to around 3.2 goals for vs one against whenever Orr was on the ice at even strength, Pittsburgh scored around 2.3 goals for to one against when Lemieux was on the ice at even strength. Lemieux is probably the greatest power play player ever while Orr was merely great, so that's an edge for Lemieux. Orr was a much better penalty killer, which is a bigger edge.
To put it more succinctly, I'd say that Lemieux has a small edge offensively but Orr comfortably beats him outside of that. It's a very interesting comparison if Lemieux had been able to play the whole season. No shame in an all time great season and probably the most impressive, all things considered, season I can think of in any sport that I follow.
The whole league was massively weaker in 1971 than in 1993 though, defensemen worth remembering there were only a handful anyway.
Video Nasty
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It was always going to come down to not being able to vote for a season where the player missed 30% of the schedule. 1992-1993 was magical, but it can’t beat Orr’s peak season.
Lemieux 1993 is my favorite season ever, by far. I also find it the most special. The run at the end in particular is insane:
- Back from Chemo on March 2nd after a 2 month break? Ok...well he's only human, so slow start....2 points on his return game (a loss), and then 1 point total in following 2 games. Maybe he should have stayed away longer to rest up, with only 3 points in 3 games & 2 losses.....
- But wait - starting game 4 of his return, he has a 4 point night. 1 goal, 3 assists. Penguins win. March 11th. From there, this is how Lemieux and Penguins finish the rest of the year out:
- Penguins Record - 17 wins in a row (18th game, last game of season, a tie). 102 goals for, 54 goals against.
- Lemieux in the last 17 games: 29 goals, 53 points (over 84 games, that paces out to 143 goals & 262 points).
I'm not suggesting Lemieux would have hit 143 goals and 262 points in a full season - but just highlighting how insane a stretch it was after his comeback from chemo - when a normal person should have simply been home and resting for a few months to recover fully instead of playing hockey.
So yeah - it's my favorite season ever, and I think it's the most special season ever.
But - objectively, Orr's full season should rank higher than Lemieux's 3/4th season, so I did vote for that one. And I'm not trying to sell Orr short - even if Lemieux had played every game it would be close, since Orr is spectacular and so is 1971. It's really hard to rank the absolute best of Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr vs one another - at their best, they were all 3 so good.
- Back from Chemo on March 2nd after a 2 month break? Ok...well he's only human, so slow start....2 points on his return game (a loss), and then 1 point total in following 2 games. Maybe he should have stayed away longer to rest up, with only 3 points in 3 games & 2 losses.....
- But wait - starting game 4 of his return, he has a 4 point night. 1 goal, 3 assists. Penguins win. March 11th. From there, this is how Lemieux and Penguins finish the rest of the year out:
- Penguins Record - 17 wins in a row (18th game, last game of season, a tie). 102 goals for, 54 goals against.
- Lemieux in the last 17 games: 29 goals, 53 points (over 84 games, that paces out to 143 goals & 262 points).
I'm not suggesting Lemieux would have hit 143 goals and 262 points in a full season - but just highlighting how insane a stretch it was after his comeback from chemo - when a normal person should have simply been home and resting for a few months to recover fully instead of playing hockey.
So yeah - it's my favorite season ever, and I think it's the most special season ever.
But - objectively, Orr's full season should rank higher than Lemieux's 3/4th season, so I did vote for that one. And I'm not trying to sell Orr short - even if Lemieux had played every game it would be close, since Orr is spectacular and so is 1971. It's really hard to rank the absolute best of Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr vs one another - at their best, they were all 3 so good.
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Helluva coincidence how the players all become so much more talented in a high scoring environment.
Nathaniel Skywalker
DIG IN!!! RiGHT NOW!!!
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Since gretzky 84 is winning against orr easily. Only reason mario lost is only 60 gp. Orr was not beating 97 goal 224 point mario
Now I’m curious if Gretzky has a 17 game stretch or longer that’s better than that… in points per game I’m guessing he has a few, but goals per game as well? That could be the best stretch of offensive play ever.
I’m not convinced he would’ve finished with these totals, mostly since playing 84 was probably never going to happen for him.
Gretzky definitely has a couple of stretches better than 53 points in 17 games. Example in 1984, he has one stretch of 56 points in 17 games. He probably has a couple of those. Lemieux himself also has at least one other stretch of 53 points in 17 games in 1989.
But - 29 goals in 17 games, I'm not sure. As far as I can tell, neither Gretzky in 82 or 84, Lemieux in 89, Hull in 91 came close to that (closest I see I think is like ~24 goals).
I think that Lemieux 93 stretch is even more impressive when you consider the story around it, with him returning from radiation treatment and managing that.
As to your second point - would Lemieux have finished with ~97 goals/224 points playing all 84 games? I dunno - like I said, he seemed particularly motivated to go above and beyond after he came back. If he never had missed any game and was fully healthy - the opposite may have been true, maybe he coasts a bit towards end of year to try and get ready to playoffs/go for a 3-peat. Who knows?
I think with 84 games played he definitely challenges both 92 goals and 215 points that year. I'd say there'd be a 50% chance he passes either/or. So - definitely possible, but not for sure.
Yeah this is incredible and just as I suspected he stands alone in goals here, that may have been the best stretch of play ever and now it’s my mission to find as many of those games as I can and watch them ASAP.
