OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Sneaking up onto training camp

[Big McLargehuge]

Non-Steelers...with Boise State, Colorado State, Fresno State, & San Diego State joining the Pac-12 it appears there's finally a clear path for the Montana schools to finally make the jump to the MWC.

My alma mater (Montana) has been invited a handful of times already, but it's both Montana schools or neither and with 4 holes suddenly needing to be filled and 2 of the top FCS programs right there in the conference's footprint it just makes too much sense to happen. I can't wait until the MW winds up inviting Incarnate Word instead because Texas.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

While I’m more optimistic than last year, I’m not ready to say Arthur Smith is crushing it or anything considering we relied on Boz to make multiple +50 yard field goals.

Finishing drives leads much to be desired, but compared to last year it's a significant improvement.
Hell we couldn't even "start" drives last year. We had to lead the league in 3 and outs...

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

So Tyrek claims he's all about accountability. Funny how he keeps ended up in the middle of all these confrontations. But he's surely just a victim of circumstance, much like Antonio Brown

Hill says he could have handled traffic stop better

Dolphins wide receiver Tyreek Hill acknowledged Wednesday that he could have handled himself better in the initial moments of a weekend traffic stop that left him handcuffed and pulled out of his car by officers near the team's stadium.

www.espn.com

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

This is so anecdotal and how not to analyze but the Smith offense felt like a real NFL offense. Canada’s did not.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

@Peat

I also enjoy the QB school but have learned that the one thing about him is he gets blinded by his own viewpoint sometime. For instance, he saw Bryce Young and CJ Stroud at the same camp (Elite 11 iirc) and wouldn’t come off Young because he simply looked “different” back in the day.

Or that early 3rd down conversion where Fields ran for 12 yards. I get what he’s saying about making yardage gains more repeatable at the NFL level but Fields cannot “rip it” in that scenario. I don’t agree at all Muth was open, LB is sitting on that throwing lane. JT just wants things done how he thinks they should be and I think it creates some holes in his analysis, but you can say that for anyone.

 

[WickedWrister]

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I mean this is in direct response to the banter about avoiding MOF being a staple of Tomlin for almost a decade. The PR campaign is in full force.

Kaboloy and Smith are backing Tomlin bc they like their jobs. I'll believe 7 yrs of what I've seen with my own eyes over someone ballwashing Bates like he's the 2nd coming of Troy or Ed Reed

 

[DanielPlainview]

QB play across the board seems to be way down. Too much focus on Madden ball. Quarterbacks are there to make passes.

 

[xlm34]

I mean Bates may not be Ed Reed but he’s a top 5 safety in the league and Justin Simmons is no slouch. Trying to keep a turnover prone QB away from those guys seems like solid game planning to me.

 

[ImporterExporter]

This is so anecdotal and how not to analyze but the Smith offense felt like a real NFL offense. Canada’s did not.

Best post in a long time.

Canada should have never been in the NFL given his track record in college but Tomlin's kid needed a scholarship at Maryland so favor for a favor thing.

Canada gets fired for being shit and Tomlin (who hired and then kept Matty) subsequently gets extended forever.

Makes sense.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I mean Bates may not be Ed Reed but he’s a top 5 safety in the league and Justin Simmons is no slouch. Trying to keep a turnover prone QB away from those guys seems like solid game planning to me.

Well here is the purgatory dilemma we find ourselves in for the past 10+ years.

Here are immutable facts:
1. The only way to get better in any activity (from learning to read to playing NFL QB) requires that mistakes be made.
2. Tomlin is like most NFL coaches who dislike turnovers. But he takes it to the Nth degree in terms of risk aversion. He'd rather swallow arsenic.

So how do you marry these "influences" as they are diametrically opposed?

For argument's sake, let's imagine that JF has some headroom to improve and be better than what he was in Chic and in 1 game here. How is JF going to get better if he's not making mistakes?

I'm a big proponent of the Art of War: attack what is weak and avoid what is strong.
But to win in the NFL you have to go against tendency. Tomlin's 7 year tendency to avoid the middle has resulted in middling results on the offensive side of the ball. Defenses stack the box against the run and defend the boundaries vs the pass.

In short what I'm saying is that to go forward (have success), you sometimes have to go backwards (experience failures). MT absolutely REFUSES to go backwards and experience short term adversity for the benefit of long term gain because his precious "NHALS =Never Had A Losing Season" would be in jeopardy.

 

[Peat]

I'm gonna wait through the next couple of weeks and see what the offence looks like when not dealing with defences where safeties aren't their strong point and what happens as that'll answer the question. Although it has to be noted that if we're avoiding opposition strengths, running 41 times on Atlanta isn't exactly the answer.

@Peat

I also enjoy the QB school but have learned that the one thing about him is he gets blinded by his own viewpoint sometime. For instance, he saw Bryce Young and CJ Stroud at the same camp (Elite 11 iirc) and wouldn’t come off Young because he simply looked “different” back in the day.

Indeed, and to a certain extent I respect that. I'm okay with guys being slow to change their mind on guys they believe in. Got to account for the biases though. I'm glad there's other guys like him out there to give a cross-section.

And speaking of biases, I think something possibly to bear in mind with O'Sullivan on Fields is that as a long time believer who's been burnt, maybe he can be over critical, so here...

Or that early 3rd down conversion where Fields ran for 12 yards. I get what he’s saying about making yardage gains more repeatable at the NFL level but Fields cannot “rip it” in that scenario. I don’t agree at all Muth was open, LB is sitting on that throwing lane. JT just wants things done how he thinks they should be and I think it creates some holes in his analysis, but you can say that for anyone.

This is one where I'm 50-50 and would love some super nerdy data on time elapsed between recognition and action - and how far people run in that period.

If you look at this, I'd agree

That to me screams wide running lane, tight-ish coverage... why not tuck the ball under your arm and go. I mean, can you throw it to Muth? Probably, but Fields can easily run it to more or less where Muth is with less risk than comes from throwing it, so why not?

But then you get this at... a second later? Half a second later? Hard to be sure as O'Sullivan pauses the tape and this is what he pauses it on

And to me it is indeed on. The two guys behind Muth aren't going to catch him and that number 20 in front of him is running away from him while squaring up to Fields and therefore can't interfere. It would be even more blatant about a half second more -

where 20 is well away from him. I think there's even a YAC opportunity there. I do kind of wish that throw was made.

But I suspect that in that time elapse, Fields has made the perfectly good decision to run and is not physically in a place to switch to the pass quickly. I don't know whether he's meant to read that number 20 is going to drift wide (I'm not entirely certain why he does that and would love a defence guru to explain it to me - he's not covering anyone and it could make sense from a run stop perspective but he shoots up when Fields commits so why not shoot up immediately?). I don't know whether he's meant to be anticipating that, I don't know that it's reasonable for him to read that it's changed and throw in that period of time.

So... 50-50 for me. And it's a bit ticky-tacky to point it out as Fields makes a good play - as O'Sullivan says, what Fields does there is never a bad thing - but at the same time, it's emblematic of the sort of plays Fields doesn't make that maybe top guys do. And while I get the criticism about O'Sullivan wanting things to be done as thinks they should be done, I'm also kind of with him because if you're drilling an instinctive don't even think about it way to play this sort of scenarios, passing is going to beat running most times so yeah I think QBs should be encouraged to pass instead of run in these scenarios because that way they're automatically doing the higher percentage thing.

Which might have contradicted what I said earlier.

I would love to know how Atlanta thought that defensive play was going to go down btw. It seems wild to me not leave a QB spy on Justin Fields on a 3rd down.

 

[Night Shift]

Canada should have never been in the NFL given his track record in college but Tomlin's kid needed a scholarship at Maryland so favor for a favor thing.

Canada gets fired for being shit and Tomlin (who hired and then kept Matty) subsequently gets extended forever.

Another reason why I think Rooney has dementia. What owner would put up with the kind of nepotism that hires unqualified people and KEEP them for 3 years?

@bigdaddyk88 has a front row seat to all this and Tomin is laughing all the way to the bank, while Rooney is trying to figure out what year it is.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I'm gonna wait through the next couple of weeks and see what the offence looks like when not dealing with defences where safeties aren't their strong point and what happens as that'll answer the question. Although it has to be noted that if we're avoiding opposition strengths, running 41 times on Atlanta isn't exactly the answer.



Indeed, and to a certain extent I respect that. I'm okay with guys being slow to change their mind on guys they believe in. Got to account for the biases though. I'm glad there's other guys like him out there to give a cross-section.

And speaking of biases, I think something possibly to bear in mind with O'Sullivan on Fields is that as a long time believer who's been burnt, maybe he can be over critical, so here...



This is one where I'm 50-50 and would love some super nerdy data on time elapsed between recognition and action - and how far people run in that period.

If you look at this, I'd agree

View attachment 906637

That to me screams wide running lane, tight-ish coverage... why not tuck the ball under your arm and go. I mean, can you throw it to Muth? Probably, but Fields can easily run it to more or less where Muth is with less risk than comes from throwing it, so why not?

But then you get this at... a second later? Half a second later? Hard to be sure as O'Sullivan pauses the tape and this is what he pauses it on

View attachment 906640

And to me it is indeed on. The two guys behind Muth aren't going to catch him and that number 20 in front of him is running away from him while squaring up to Fields and therefore can't interfere. It would be even more blatant about a half second more -

View attachment 906638

where 20 is well away from him. I think there's even a YAC opportunity there. I do kind of wish that throw was made.

But I suspect that in that time elapse, Fields has made the perfectly good decision to run. I don't know whether he's meant to read that number 20 is going to drift wide (I'm not entirely certain why he does that and would love a defence guru to explain it to me - he's not covering anyone and it could make sense from a run stop perspective but he shoots up when Fields commits so why not shoot up immediately?). I don't know whether he's meant to be anticipating that, I don't know that it's reasonable for him to read that it's changed and throw in that period of time.

So... 50-50 for me. And it's a bit ticky-tacky to point it out as Fields makes a good play - as O'Sullivan says, what Fields does there is never a bad thing - but at the same time, it's emblematic of the sort of plays Fields doesn't make that maybe top guys do. And while I get the criticism about O'Sullivan wanting things to be done as thinks they should be done, I'm also kind of with him because if you're drilling an instinctive don't even think about it way to play this sort of scenarios, passing is going to beat running most times so yeah I think QBs should be encouraged to pass instead of run in these scenarios because that way they're automatically doing the higher percentage thing.

Which might have contradicted what I said earlier.

I would love to know how Atlanta thought that defensive play was going to go down btw. It seems wild to me not leave a QB spy on Justin Fields on a 3rd down.

Im all about AAAAnticipation as he says… I just don’t see it there. I’d actually have the “moment” to throw it (even though I’m arguing he shouldn’t have) when he’s still in the pocket, so slightly earlier than your screenshots.

That’s a really dangerous throw to make; it’s MOF, you have to put it low. By the time he drops his weight and makes the motion I think the LB can get there unless he’s laser quick.

But I agree with the overarching concept of: get the ball out, get it out with anticipation, and let’s rely on that vs trying to make harder-to-replicate plays.. whether that’s improvising with our legs or even through the air. I just think there’s plays where JT is wrong and it’s because of his ideology. But that’s okay, like you said there’s a balance between having conviction and being able to adapt.

 

[Peat]

Im all about AAAAnticipation as he says… I just don’t see it there. I’d actually have the “moment” to throw it (even though I’m arguing he shouldn’t have) when he’s still in the pocket, so slightly earlier than your screenshots.

That’s a really dangerous throw to make; it’s MOF, you have to put it low. By the time he drops his weight and makes the motion I think the LB can get there unless he’s laser quick.

But I agree with the overarching concept of: get the ball out, get it out with anticipation, and let’s rely on that vs trying to make harder-to-replicate plays.. whether that’s improvising with our legs or even through the air. I just think there’s plays where JT is wrong and it’s because of his ideology. But that’s okay, like you said there’s a balance between having conviction and being able to adapt.

I guess JT disagrees with you on how quick the QB should be able to throw it and how quick the LB (which number are you thinking of here) should be able to get there if he thinks it's on.

And I dunno which of you I agree with. Seems very borderline to me. I feel pretty sure he'd have been discouraged from throwing that though.

edit: While we're talking this, Chase Daniel reckons that should have gone to Pickens on the bottom of the screen/left of the field the moment Fields saw that safety doing what he was doing.

edit edit: Daniel thinks that first Fields sack might have been driven partly by expecting Pickens to curl out whether than sitting where he is.

I need to find someone who does all this crap for defences. Anything else apart, it's going to be a lot more fun listening to someone explain why TJ Watt is amazing than why Fields is okay.

 

[WickedWrister]

Yeah I have no problem with him deciding to tuck it and run on this particular play. Muth was maybe open but not wide ass open. Stepped up into the pocket and once he broke contain he had about 20 yards of daylight and gained nearly the same amount as that pass attempt would've resulted in (if completed).

 

[Peat]

Arthur Smith, Not Justin Fields, Reason Why Steelers Didn't Throw Over Middle Against Falcons

The Pittsburgh Steelers’ game plan on Sunday against the Atlanta Falcons involved possessing the ball, taking a few shots when called upon and leaning on the run game. While Smith usually likes utilizing the middle of the field in the passing game, it wasn’t something the Steelers did on Sunday...

steelersdepot.com

Posting this mainly for a criticism Smith makes of Fields' throw to Van Jefferson's stuffed 3rd and short. Odd one to put on the QB publicly but interesting to hear with Smith wanted. It's a long way down the article.

 

[WickedWrister]

Arthur Smith, Not Justin Fields, Reason Why Steelers Didn't Throw Over Middle Against Falcons

The Pittsburgh Steelers’ game plan on Sunday against the Atlanta Falcons involved possessing the ball, taking a few shots when called upon and leaning on the run game. While Smith usually likes utilizing the middle of the field in the passing game, it wasn’t something the Steelers did on Sunday...

steelersdepot.com

Posting this mainly for a criticism Smith makes of Fields' throw to Van Jefferson's stuffed 3rd and short. Odd one to put on the QB publicly but interesting to hear with Smith wanted. It's a long way down the article.

I watched this play like 10 times and I'm still not sure what Smith means. I guess Pickens and Austin are trying to block with inside leverage but after Jefferson catches it, he still runs to the outside.

 

[Peat]

I watched this play like 10 times and I'm still not sure what Smith means. I guess Pickens and Austin are trying to block with inside leverage but after Jefferson catches it, he still runs to the outside.

The bit where how the play is meant to work does puzzle me a bit too given Jefferson's run and also the fact that Falcons 11 is flying into that gap.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I think Smith means hit it earlier/quicker or tuck and run. Looks like it was fake (maybe a legit option idk?) handoff and the RPO was Fields or throw to Van.

These reporters only ask a few good questions and never follow up on the good ones!

 

[Peat]

I think Smith means hit it earlier/quicker or tuck and run. Looks like it was fake (maybe a legit option idk?) handoff and the RPO was Fields or throw to Van.

These reporters only ask a few good questions and never follow up on the good ones!

That makes sense with how quick Jefferson is looking for that pass. Guess if it goes quick enough, no one's there and it's just a straight forwards run and flop. And he decides to arc outside because he can see Falcons 11 has closed off what should have been easy. Maybe.

And I'm surprised Smith answered them so I don't blame them for not asking too many good questions (well, not that many can...)

 

[MrBrightside]

If Frazier is that good why wasn't he pegged to start from the outset? Tomlin's reluctance to play young players is so frustrating

He started the first game of the season his rookie year. Good lord people like to bitch.

 

[DanielPlainview]

He started the first game of the season his rookie year. Good lord people like to bitch.

Because of injury you f-ing moron

 

[T1K]

Because of injury you f-ing moron

Who cares? He’s not losing the job

 

[JTG]

I hope you're right about Fautanu, because he struggled against the Texans and Danielle Hunter in his only preseason work.

This is a little bit outside the box, but it would be nice to see him get a couple snaps a game as an extra tackle instead of these 3 and 4 TE formations. I know Detroit likes to do this sometimes. It's probably more of a tell though than going multiple TE.


Justifiably harsh early on, and then gives Fields some praise towards the end. Interesting that he blamed #88 on that Jaylen Warren 4th and 1 that the chain gang mixed up. His take on the Pickens OPI is valid - gotta be more subtle than that, push off at the guys hips instead of the shoulders . "This throw will be in every offense across the league this week" is something we never heard about Canada lol.

I think there is a lot going on with this team. This offense is still outrageously young outside of Russ. There's going to be some growing pains.

I am beginning to think Washington's feet cannot handle the rigors of blocking in the NFL. I swear he has broken his feet 3 times since being drafted.

He has gotten better since they drafted him. He was having issues with Adams and bigger Nt in camp

He was coming off of a broken leg also.

This is so anecdotal and how not to analyze but the Smith offense felt like a real NFL offense. Canada’s did not.

It was marginally more effective, but it definitely felt better.

Fair enough, I suppose. I'm very curious as to what Smith thinks about Fields long term. Is he going to treat him as a developmental guy? Or is Fields purely there as the QB2 and he can f*** off at the end of the year? Smith has to have a pretty strong opinion one way or another after seeing him for years.

QB play across the board seems to be way down. Too much focus on Madden ball. Quarterbacks are there to make passes.

Totally agreed. The most impressive QB in the league this week was Stafford, IMO, and he is truly one of the last QBs from a generation of great QBs. The 2000's and 2010's were really good to football fans with QBing.

I don't even think Allen is as great as many say. He reminds me of Lundqvist. I think the great QBs in the NFL today are great...for today, but I wouldn't put them up with greats.