OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: 5 and 2 Justin who? Hand the Fields to Wilson

[bigdaddyk88]

Do you ever think the reason for the success on the 1 play that Allen came in was BECAUSE they went against tendency?

If I'm a DC and the other starting QB goes out, I'm selling out to stop the run bc every team does that.

Kudos to Smith for catching them with their pants down, but that play was an anomaly in every sense of the word.

Note- I'm no JF fan, but your repeated digs to tear him down kind of make me sound like I'm defending him.

No because those same plays have been available every week. Earlier in the game he had Muth right in front of him and he took a shot to gp on 3rd down instead of getting the 1st down.
Yes I agree smith has tendency issues. I was excited with the first play if the game where fields rolled out of play action. I think they did target heyward out of boot action with him a fb. He wasn’t blocking any one as a fb.
Fields has to run and play off structure to have any success. When he runs he opens up space

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

I couldn’t stay up for this as I had to get up at 5:30 for work. It looks like the same issues as the Indy game judging by what I read in the thread. Pass defense is ass, OL sucks and they can’t run the ball.
I am not as down on Fields as others are here but I am fine with getting Russ in next week. Team needs a fire lit under them offensively.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

So pinch of salt as my memory is not sure on this point but -

If they said it, and I'm not 100% sure they did (I thought they did but not utterly sure), then they didn't say where it came from. It sounded like 80% fact 20% conjecture unlike them saying Wilson should be ready to go next week, which they said as 100% fact based on talking to Wilson. In fact, here's the video of that bit

https://x.com/i/web/status/1843124616702886323

So... my guess is he was at 80% the last few weeks, the sort of 80% where you can play if necessary but it won't be pretty? But it sounds like he's now a lot closer. Even if I was wrong about where his health was - and I can't stress enough I might be - he's now probably there.


And I doubt it matters all that much either. Way too many problems for it to matter unless Wilson is magically 10 years younger. But I don't think it matters all that much the other way. I've no idea what I'd do in Tomlin's shoes tbh.

edit:

Dulac says he was medically cleared two weeks ago

Yea from a QB standpoint, I don't have beef with Tomlin's decisions.

What I do have issues with in terms of offensive personnel:

1. VJ masquerading as a WR1 and Roman Wilson not getting a hat
2. The continued façade that Harris should be getting most of the carries. Why aren't we seeing more of these youngsters to tote the rock?
3. The Oline still continues to be a mess. They seem to be unable to put the right people in the right places

 

[WickedWrister]

 

[Empoleon8771]

I feel like the issue with going back to Wilson at this point is that I think it burns any bridges for keeping Fields as the starter long-term. It just signals that this team views Fields' performance as insufficient, which would be pretty ridiculous compared to what they've gotten out of their QB play in the past couple of years.

Through 5 games, Fields has about a 67.5% completion% with an 8-2 TD to turnover ratio (5 passing TDs and 3 rushing TDs) and is averaging about 225 total yards of offense between his passing and running. He has shown an ability to pick up the offense and make a game competitive with his showing against the Colts as well. I just don't see what Russell Wilson could possibly offer this offense that is notably better than this, and I don't think you can reasonably go back to Fields in the future if you give up on him after the start he has had.

I just feel like going back to Wilson now means they're going to have to entirely redo their QB room for next year, while I have absolutely been intrigued enough with Fields that it's worth trying to see what you can get there.

 

[Empoleon8771]

And just for another point of comparison:

Kyler Murray: 68.1% completion% (94 for 138), 8 total TDs (7 passing, 1 rushing), 2 interceptions, 194.4 passing yards/game, 99.1 passer rating
Justin Fields: 67.6% completion% (92 for 136), 8 totals TDs (5 passing, 3 rushing), 1 interception, 192.2 passing yards/game, 97.1 passer rating

They also have basically identical Y/C (10.4 for Fields, 10.3 for Murray), Y/A (7.1 for Fields, 7.0 for Murray) and AY/A (7.47 for Fields, 7.41 for Murray). The only difference between the two is Murray is getting sacked a bit less, but otherwise Fields is performing entirely in line with Murray. If you're pulling Fields with this kind of performance, it just shows that you never intended on giving Fields a real chance to be the starter in the first place.

 

[xlm34]

I feel like the issue with going back to Wilson at this point is that I think it burns any bridges for keeping Fields as the starter long-term. It just signals that this team views Fields' performance as insufficient, which would be pretty ridiculous compared to what they've gotten out of their QB play in the past couple of years.

Through 5 games, Fields has about a 67.5% completion% with an 8-2 TD to turnover ratio (5 passing TDs and 3 rushing TDs) and is averaging about 225 total yards of offense between his passing and running. He has shown an ability to pick up the offense and make a game competitive with his showing against the Colts as well. I just don't see what Russell Wilson could possibly offer this offense that is notably better than this, and I don't think you can reasonably go back to Fields in the future if you give up on him after the start he has had.

I just feel like going back to Wilson now means they're going to have to entirely redo their QB room for next year, while I have absolutely been intrigued enough with Fields that it's worth trying to see what you can get there.

Yeah I think this pretty much sums up my thoughts on the situation. For maybe the first time in my life, I’d like to see them prioritize the future over the present.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I feel like the issue with going back to Wilson at this point is that I think it burns any bridges for keeping Fields as the starter long-term. It just signals that this team views Fields' performance as insufficient, which would be pretty ridiculous compared to what they've gotten out of their QB play in the past couple of years.

Through 5 games, Fields has about a 67.5% completion% with an 8-2 TD to turnover ratio (5 passing TDs and 3 rushing TDs) and is averaging about 225 total yards of offense between his passing and running. He has shown an ability to pick up the offense and make a game competitive with his showing against the Colts as well. I just don't see what Russell Wilson could possibly offer this offense that is notably better than this, and I don't think you can reasonably go back to Fields in the future if you give up on him after the start he has had.

I just feel like going back to Wilson now means they're going to have to entirely redo their QB room for next year, while I have absolutely been intrigued enough with Fields that it's worth trying to see what you can get there.

Saw your Murray comparison and it's fair. To me there aren't many Lamar Jacksons so you're gonna get the lite version and Murray & Fields are in that tier.

Wish they would give Fields more true RPO stuff (like Murray) but I think they are worried about his fumbling/ball security issues.

And yea it's a tough position for Tomlin to be in for the QB room. The whole "if you have 2 QB's you really have none" rings true.

Buuuut you have to understand that Tomlin can't have his NHALS ship sunk. So if Fields loses next week or is in the process of the wheels falling off, you're gonna see Wilson. I'd put any money on it.

This goes back to "you have to go backwards sometimes to step forward" [meaning suffering bumps with JF along the way].

It is truly a binary choice. Going with Fields probably indicates they want him back.
Going with RW probably means Fields won't come back and you've erased any chance of developing him

 

[Empoleon8771]

Saw your Murray comparison and it's fair. To me there aren't many Lamar Jacksons so you're gonna get the lite version and Murray & Fields are in that tier.

And to further the point about the Murray-Fields comparison, Arizona is ranked 12th in team offense this year with Murray having an identical passing stat line to Fields. Want to know the reason? Might want to look at their rushing offense (156 yards per game and 5.5 yards/carry) versus the Steelers rushing offense (121 yards/game and 3.7 yards/carry). Or maybe Conner (379 yards, 4.6 yards/attempt) versus Harris (270 yards, 3.3 yards/attempt).

The issue with just swapping Fields for Wilson is that the team isn't going to be better by doing that. The performance you're getting out of Fields this year is that of a $30 million starting QB in the NFL (19th and 20th highest paid QB makes $33.3 million and $25 million respectively, think Fields falls in around there). Going from that to Wilson, who just got bought out of that kind of major deal, isn't going to magically fix the actual issues with this offense. They're still going to be winning or losing these kind of 17-13 games because they have no run game, their OL is trash and they have no WRs beyond Pickens.

 

[Peat]

I don't see how putting Wilson over Fields is a definite bridge burner. I don't think Fields would have - certainly should not have - expected any different. He came in as QB2 and there shouldn't be any hurt feelings over that continuing when he's 3-2 on an offence averaging 18.4 points a game. The circumstances in a which a team absolutely ditches its QB1 hasn't arisen. If anything, he can take it as a vote of confidence that they kept him for two weeks beyond Wilson being medically cleared.

So if Fields stays as QB2 for the rest of the season, I doubt he'd tell his agent not to pick up any calls from Omar Khan this coming off-season. Not when he already chose to come to Pittsburgh once and he'd have a big head start on knowing the offence here as compared to learning all over again somewhere else.

Tomlin could very well flip-flop later in the season too. Very far from certain that putting Wilson in automatically loses Fields for the future.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't see how putting Wilson over Fields is a definite bridge burner. I don't think Fields would have - certainly should not have - expected any different. He came in as QB2 and there shouldn't be any hurt feelings over that continuing when he's 3-2 on an offence averaging 18.4 points a game. The circumstances in a which a team absolutely ditches its QB1 hasn't arisen. If anything, he can take it as a vote of confidence that they kept him for two weeks beyond Wilson being medically cleared.

So if Fields stays as QB2 for the rest of the season, I doubt he'd tell his agent not to pick up any calls from Omar Khan this coming off-season. Not when he already chose to come to Pittsburgh once and he'd have a big head start on knowing the offence here as compared to learning all over again somewhere else.

Tomlin could very well flip-flop later in the season too. Very far from certain that putting Wilson in automatically loses Fields for the future.

Because he's one of the only functional parts of this offense and is getting scapegoated for the lack of support around him. That is exactly what kind of message benching him for Wilson sends, it says that his performance was not acceptable when his performance was pretty much the only acceptable one from the offense.

That is exactly what mentioning the 18.4 points a game number does. They're 29th in rushing yards per attempt and 26th in rushing TDs. This team is built and operated like a team that is carried by its running game and just relies on the passing game to be smart and play it safe. Fields is holding up his end of the bargain with that, the running game isn't. This is even worse when you consider that all 3 of the Steelers rushing TDs are Fields rushing TDs.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

RW had pole position he wasn’t healthy they gave Fields 5 weeks but the plan was for him to redshirt behind RW that’s why they put the play time incentives in the trade with the bears

 

[Empoleon8771]

RW had pole position he wasn’t healthy they gave Fields 5 weeks but the plan was for him to redshirt behind RW that’s why they put the play time incentives in the trade with the bears

Who gives a crap about "pole position"? Justin Fields literally has every single one of this team's offensive TDs, all 5 passing TDs and 3 rushing TDs are him. He's the only reason this offense isn't worse.

Pickens had 0 TDs with a horrendous redzone turnover against the Colts and him downright quitting on the team against the Cowboys. Harris has 0 TDs with a pitiful 3.3 yards/attempt, and his complete ineffectiveness is putting the passing game in a bind by having to constantly go for 2nd/3rd and long passing plays. Their WR2 and WR3 are WR5s on good teams, they're only getting like 2-3 targets a game and 1-2 catches a game. Their OL has been absolutely battered with injuries and the young guys (outside of Frazier have really struggled). But somehow going from Fields to Wilson solves anything? What does it solve?

 

[WickedWrister]

Week 5 QB Efficiency - this is what the lowest completion % in a single game in over 30 years does to the scale

 

[xlm34]

Yeah I think the whole idea behind Wilson is that he could work if he had a strong running game and wasn’t asked to do too much. Turns out the running game actually sucks and we’ll need to let Russ cook…which is not all that appetizing to me.

I also wouldn’t expect to see Fields again if Wilson performs like Fields is currently performing. Tomlin needs to make a season long decision at this point - you either let Fields play or commit to Russ for the rest of the season. I think leaving things in limbo would be a mistake.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah I think the whole idea behind Wilson is that he could work if he had a strong running game and wasn’t asked to do too much. Turns out the running game actually sucks and we’ll need to let Russ cook…which is not all that appetizing to me.

I also wouldn’t expect to see Fields again if Wilson performs like Fields is currently performing. Tomlin needs to make a season long decision at this point - you either let Fields play or commit to Russ for the rest of the season. I think leaving things in limbo would be a mistake.

That's a great way to put it: if Wilson had played in the first 5 games of the year and would have had the same stat line as Fields, would there be any chance Tomlin would be pulling Wilson for Fields? If the answer is no (which I think is the correct answer), then why should they pull Fields for Wilson now?

 

[Peat]

Who gives a crap about "pole position"? Justin Fields literally has every single one of this team's offensive TDs, all 5 passing TDs and 3 rushing TDs are him. He's the only reason this offense isn't worse.

Mike Tomlin and Justin Fields.

You're acting like this situation was "Justin, this is your job, you've just got hang on to it" and now that it's not, he'll feel betrayed as Rudolph and Pickett did, and get the hell out of dodge asap.

Where as everything I heard from Tomlin publicly was "This is Russell Wilson's job because he's QB1 and things could change but don't expect it". I doubt the message was any different privately.

At which point, the expectation should be that it would take exceptional performance to change things which obviously did not happen. That's why I pointed out the points. It's impossible for that to be exceptional. Maybe it was acceptable all things considered, but nobody expects a team to go from QB1 to QB2 because QB2 was acceptable.

And as such, I don't see how this changes things for Fields so dramatically there's no going back.

That's a great way to put it: if Wilson had played in the first 5 games of the year and would have had the same stat line as Fields, would there be any chance Tomlin would be pulling Wilson for Fields? If the answer is no (which I think is the correct answer), then why should they pull Fields for Wilson now?

Because Tomlin went into the season with Wilson as QB1 because he believed in him more.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Mike Tomlin and Justin Fields.

You're acting like this situation was "Justin, this is your job, you've just got hang on to it" and now that it's not, he'll feel betrayed as Rudolph and Pickett did, and get the hell out of dodge asap.

Where as everything I heard from Tomlin publicly was "This is Russell Wilson's job because he's QB1 and things could change but don't expect it". I doubt the message was any different privately.

At which point, the expectation should be that it would take exceptional performance to change things which obviously did not happen. That's why I pointed out the points. It's impossible for that to be exceptional. Maybe it was acceptable all things considered, but nobody expects a team to go from QB1 to QB2 because QB2 was acceptable.

And as such, I don't see how this changes things for Fields so dramatically there's no going back.



Because Tomlin went into the season with Wilson as QB1 because he believed in him more.

I don't see how you don't think this is a massive double standard that is massively problematic.

 

[MrBrightside]

"Tomlin makes poor personnel decisions and is too conservative and his game plans are killing the offense."

Also: "Tomlin likes Wilson more than Fields so they should go to Wilson."

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Who gives a crap about "pole position"? Justin Fields literally has every single one of this team's offensive TDs, all 5 passing TDs and 3 rushing TDs are him. He's the only reason this offense isn't worse.

Pickens had 0 TDs with a horrendous redzone turnover against the Colts and him downright quitting on the team against the Cowboys. Harris has 0 TDs with a pitiful 3.3 yards/attempt, and his complete ineffectiveness is putting the passing game in a bind by having to constantly go for 2nd/3rd and long passing plays. Their WR2 and WR3 are WR5s on good teams, they're only getting like 2-3 targets a game and 1-2 catches a game. Their OL has been absolutely battered with injuries and the young guys (outside of Frazier have really struggled). But somehow going from Fields to Wilson solves anything? What does it solve?

Fields has fumbled in every game this season. He still can’t read defenses he was lucky to interceptions were dropped last night.
The offense is supposed to be play action deep shots Fields doesn’t take the deep shots
If teams respect the Qb ability th o throw they might not stick in 8 man boxes

 

[Empoleon8771]

Fields has fumbled in every game this season. He still can’t read defenses he was lucky to interceptions were dropped last night.
The offense is supposed to be play action deep shots Fields doesn’t take the deep shots
If teams respect the Qb ability th o throw they might not stick in 8 man boxes

Honestly it seems like every post you make is just making shit up.

1. 2 of Fields' fumbles were botched snaps by Frazier that hit off of Fields, and only 2 of the fumbles were actually turnovers.
2. The offense doesn't call these play-action deep shots, where are they calling these plays that Fields is somehow not taking.
3. The stacking of the box has to do with Smith's ultra predictable playcalling, and once again blaming Fields for the running game being dogshit is just stupid.

It say a lot that it's the same people shitting on Fields and advocating to get rid of him, grasping at any reason to do it.

 

[xlm34]

I’d be very curious for someone to do a cut up of some of the play action passes. I’m sure there are some Fields has turned down but the WR situation combined with this:



Makes me think it’s a much more nuanced situation than just “Fields bad”

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I feel like the issue with going back to Wilson at this point is that I think it burns any bridges for keeping Fields as the starter long-term. It just signals that this team views Fields' performance as insufficient, which would be pretty ridiculous compared to what they've gotten out of their QB play in the past couple of years.

Through 5 games, Fields has about a 67.5% completion% with an 8-2 TD to turnover ratio (5 passing TDs and 3 rushing TDs) and is averaging about 225 total yards of offense between his passing and running. He has shown an ability to pick up the offense and make a game competitive with his showing against the Colts as well. I just don't see what Russell Wilson could possibly offer this offense that is notably better than this, and I don't think you can reasonably go back to Fields in the future if you give up on him after the start he has had.

I just feel like going back to Wilson now means they're going to have to entirely redo their QB room for next year, while I have absolutely been intrigued enough with Fields that it's worth trying to see what you can get there.

If it comes down to a choice between giving Fields a real chance to be the long term solution and chancing the first Tomlin losing record, which choice do you think would be made?

 

[WickedWrister]

What % effort would you say Pickens is running these routes at?

 

[Peat]

I don't see how you don't think this is a massive double standard that is massively problematic.

It doesn't matter what me and thee think. It only matters what Fields and the rest of the team thinks.

And the sort of situation I've described is so common in NFL and pro sports that I feel fairly sure they'll accept it. Chris Hoke said last year that "Coach Tomlin has always been big about guys not losing their jobs because of injuries” so it's not exactly new and yet he's still a player's coach. Hoke added "unless you were really, really struggling and the guy who came in was absolutely lights out".

Not to mention Fields has to know it's coming as things stand given what Tomlin last said in public about it

https://x.com/i/web/status/1841207223965434326

Given he played maybe his worst game of the season and lost, he's got to know he's not changed Tomlin's mind.



Although for what it's worth no, I don't think it's massively problematic double standard.