OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: 2022 Handball season has arrived!

[Power Surge]

“I’m taking an obviously wrong and asinine stance on football coaching to avoid admitting Tomlin is a bad coach”

You can't ask a more simple question than: what makes Tomlin uniquely good?

I get a paragraph about Mike McCarthy

I'm speaking Inglas? Right?

 

[Power Surge]

Ok, so His W-L record is the reason some feel he is great and compares to other top coaches.

I think a better question would be what coaching skill did he bring to the team that contributed to his W-L record?

There doesn't seem to be a good answer to that. So the next question is, What makes him so great that he should continue to be the HC going forward?

I think the only thing you can go off of is his body of work the year he was DC in Minnesota. There isn't anything special about his stats in 06 to think he warranted 20-30 years as HC in Pittsburgh. IMHO.

However being from this side of the fence, this is why I'm not convinced since day 1 that he brought anything to the table other than being gifted a great roster and some great coordinators to start. Because there isn't a good answer to those questions.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Your entitled to that opinion but imo nobody with a good winning percentage over that long a period can be in that bucket.

I think Mike McCarthy is a perfect example of my theory. Nobody and i mean NOBODY not named McCarthy thinks that man is special in any way. But he is clearly competent enough to keep the trains running on time. Which is really what a head coach is there to do.

I think people get obsessed with a fictional ideal of what a coachs job is. Whether its because its general scapgoating, or peoples experience with HS level where coaches DO have an outsized importance or what?


Nah,

But even if it was true, id still take it over angry whiner act all day every day.

“I’m dying on this hill because Tomlin is a good coach damn it!”

 

[DanielPlainview]

You can't ask a more simple question than: what makes Tomlin uniquely good?

I get a paragraph about Mike McCarthy

I'm speaking Inglas? Right?

It’s just a cope. Even by their own standards Tomlin doesn’t keep a train rolling, he slowly pushes it off the rails

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

“I’m dying on this hill because Tomlin is a good coach damn it!”

Keep spinnin

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

You can't ask a more simple question than: what makes Tomlin uniquely good?

I get a paragraph about Mike McCarthy

I'm speaking Inglas? Right?

Ive said how many times now.

I dont believe any coach is uniquely good. Its a fallacy.

Anyone has the right to disagree but at this point its either you dont have the capacity to understand my point or actively trying not to.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

When you go to a restaurant whos most responsible for how a customers experience goes.

A. The owner
B. Upper managment
C. Middle management
D. Cooks
E. Servers

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Ok, so His W-L record is the reason some feel he is great and compares to other top coaches.

I think a better question would be what coaching skill did he bring to the team that contributed to his W-L record?

There doesn't seem to be a good answer to that. So the next question is, What makes him so great that he should continue to be the HC going forward?

I think the only thing you can go off of is his body of work the year he was DC in Minnesota. There isn't anything special about his stats in 06 to think he warranted 20-30 years as HC in Pittsburgh. IMHO.

However being from this side of the fence, this is why I'm not convinced since day 1 that he brought anything to the table other than being gifted a great roster and some great coordinators to start. Because there isn't a good answer to those questions.

I’ve been calling out Tomlin for probably 7-8 years, but there is a path for me he can take that I’ll support him going fwd… given how his lifetime employment status has made him arrogant and unwilling to improve himself, what I write below feels more fantasy than anything I expect from Tomlin.

That said, if Tomlin can develop KP and help him fulfill his potential, which I feel is quite high, then like Harbaugh with Jackson, he deserves more time.

He drafted KP, and now he’s sticking with him through rookie growing pains, and I appreciate he has the foresight to realize KP’s development is all that matters this season.

Now this of course comes with some caveats that I’m not sure Tomlin can fulfill, but should be expected from any reasonable owner.

- He needs to let go of the ‘smartest guy in the room’ routine and stop being afraid to surround himself with legit coordinators

- To that end, Tomlin needs to find a top flight OC to help develop KP, and be done with this ‘scratch my back’ shit he has with Canada because of his son.

Enough of the BS.

- He needs to cede control of the draft to Weidl and allow him to build back the trenches of this team.
- He has to start winning in the playoffs again. No more excuses.

All of this seems like common sense, but Rooney seems too cowardly to have actual expectations from Tomlin, and keeps clinging to some old fashioned tradition as his crutch.

 

[Flying Dego]

When you go to a restaurant whos most responsible for how a customers experience goes.

A. The owner
B. Upper managment
C. Middle management
D. Cooks
E. Servers

Servers. I specifically asked for no onions on my burger and they got the audacity to kick me outta the Applebees?

 

[Power Surge]

I’ve been calling out Tomlin for probably 7-8 years, but there is a path for me he can take that I’ll support him going fwd… given how his lifetime employment status has made him arrogant and unwilling to improve himself, what I write below feels more fantasy than anything I expect from Tomlin.

That said, if Tomlin can develop KP and help him fulfill his potential, which I feel is quite high, then like Harbaugh with Jackson, he deserves more time.

He drafted KP, and now he’s sticking with him through rookie growing pains, and I appreciate he has the foresight to realize KP’s development is all that matters this season.

Now this of course comes with some caveats that I’m not sure Tomlin can fulfill, but should be expected from any reasonable owner.

- He needs to let go of the ‘smartest guy in the room’ routine and stop being afraid to surround himself with legit coordinators

- To that end, Tomlin needs to find a top flight OC to help develop KP, and be done with this ‘scratch my back’ shit he has with Canada because of his son.

Enough of the BS.

- He needs to cede control of the draft to Weidl and allow him to build back the trenches of this team.
- He has to start winning in the playoffs again. No more excuses.

All of this seems like common sense, but Rooney seems too cowardly to have actual expectations from Tomlin, and keeps clinging to some old fashioned tradition as his crutch.

We've always been on the same page, If I was looking into giving him another shot, i can buy into this answer and what you are saying.

I think this is something those who are pro Tomlin could have made an argument like this; It would have at least made me think about it.

Good post.

 

[Flying Dego]

I’ve been calling out Tomlin for probably 7-8 years, but there is a path for me he can take that I’ll support him going fwd… given how his lifetime employment status has made him arrogant and unwilling to improve himself, what I write below feels more fantasy than anything I expect from Tomlin.

That said, if Tomlin can develop KP and help him fulfill his potential, which I feel is quite high, then like Harbaugh with Jackson, he deserves more time.

He drafted KP, and now he’s sticking with him through rookie growing pains, and I appreciate he has the foresight to realize KP’s development is all that matters this season.

Now this of course comes with some caveats that I’m not sure Tomlin can fulfill, but should be expected from any reasonable owner.

- He needs to let go of the ‘smartest guy in the room’ routine and stop being afraid to surround himself with legit coordinators

- To that end, Tomlin needs to find a top flight OC to help develop KP, and be done with this ‘scratch my back’ shit he has with Canada because of his son.

Enough of the BS.

- He needs to cede control of the draft to Weidl and allow him to build back the trenches of this team.
- He has to start winning in the playoffs again. No more excuses.

All of this seems like common sense, but Rooney seems too cowardly to have actual expectations from Tomlin, and keeps clinging to some old fashioned tradition as his crutch.

Everything you've said is correct and you'd hope it's blatantly obvious to the people who run the show.

My expectation?
-We win a few more games with the offense looking slightly better.
-the narrative and table banging grow that there's momentum into next year and year 3 is Canada's time to shine.
-we miss the playoffs once again next year and then they'll let go of Canada.

 

[Power Surge]

When you go to a restaurant whos most responsible for how a customers experience goes.

A. The owner
B. Upper managment
C. Middle management
D. Cooks
E. Servers

The thing is you mentioned last night about the HC being middle management which isn't the case.

The HC is upper management: overseas the middle management(OC, DC and the rest of the coaching staff) along with the players.

The HC is involved in selecting his coaching staff and involved in the draft, the personell brought in, which again, makes him upper management. HC is Lower tier (lowest tier of upper management), the GM being higher tier.

If a customer has a bad experience with the server staff. He/she isn't going back(if at all) till the upper management makes changes. If upper management fail to make the necessary changes the owner has to come in and clean house.

 

[Power Surge]

-we miss the playoffs once again next year and then they'll let go of Canada.

Tomlin has a pretty decent reputation in Pittsburgh but I have to think if he keeps Canada next year, public opinion starts to sway the other way.

 

[DanielPlainview]

When you go to a restaurant whos most responsible for how a customers experience goes.

A. The owner
B. Upper managment
C. Middle management
D. Cooks
E. Servers

Each one has their own responsibilities. This attempt just highlights how actually clueless you really are lmao

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

The thing is you mentioned last night about the HC being middle management which isn't the case.

The HC is upper management: overseas the middle management(OC, DC and the rest of the coaching staff) along with the players.

The HC is involved in selecting his coaching staff and involved in the draft, the personell brought in, which again, makes him upper management. HC is Lower tier (lowest tier of upper management), the GM being higher tier.

If a customer has a bad experience with the server staff. He/she isn't going back(if at all) till the upper management makes changes. If upper management fail to make the necessary changes the owner has to come in and clean house.

Thats where your wrong. A HC is absolutely middle management. GMs and their support staff along with team presidents etc are upper mgmt. They’re the ones ultimately responsible for the roster, the cap mgmt, etc.

A HC much like middle mgmt. job is the manage the staff, keep everyone doing what theyre supposed to do.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Everything you've said is correct and you'd hope it's blatantly obvious to the people who run the show.

My expectation?
-We win a few more games with the offense looking slightly better.
-the narrative and table banging grow that there's momentum into next year and year 3 is Canada's time to shine.
-we miss the playoffs once again next year and then they'll let go of Canada.

If it takes an entire additional season for Tomlin to fire Matt Canada, he's an even bigger moron that I currently given him credit

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Each one has their own responsibilities. This attempt just highlights how actually clueless you really are lmao

Yes they all have responsibilities. But some are Waaaaaaaaaaaaay more important that others and some are literal “just dont piss on your leg” jobs.

A HC is much like middle mgmt. Set the staff schedule, manage staff personalities, make the bank deposit, handle vendors and get out of the way. Some people are really bad at it sure, but there is no uniquely good middle managers. Their whole purpose is to just not be a f*** up.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Yes they all have responsibilities. But some are Waaaaaaaaaaaaay more important that others and some are literal “just dont piss on your leg” jobs.

A HC is much like middle mgmt. Set the staff schedule, manage staff personalities, make the bank deposit, handle vendors and get out of the way. Some people are really bad at it sure, but there is no uniquely good middle managers. Their whole purpose is to just not be a f*** up.

Listen, clueless.

Owners oversee everything about a restaurant. They make hires to ease their responsibility, but the vision of the place comes from them. Are they a seafood restaurant or a quick-go burger place? That's because of the owner. If customers come into a place that advertises fish and chips Irish pub grub but the menu is actually Tex-Mex, the owner has likely lost their mind.

The people they hire to oversee the in-house operations, hiring and training staff, they're greatly responsible for the day-to-day experience. Generally, do the servers know what they're doing? Are they prepared? Are they competent? Do they screw up little enough to not eat into the margins? This falls on the manager the owner hires to oversee such things. Tomlin is this defacto tier in this poor analogy, and he'd rate a D+ at best.

You're delusional and are talking about things you obviously have no a lick of a clue about. Hence: clueless.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Listen, clueless.

Owners oversee everything about a restaurant. They make hires to ease their responsibility, but the vision of the place comes from them. Are they a seafood restaurant or a quick-go burger place? That's because of the owner. If customers come into a place that advertises fish and chips Irish pub grub but the menu is actually Tex-Mex, the owner has likely lost their mind.

The people they hire to oversee the in-house operations, hiring and training staff, they're greatly responsible for the day-to-day experience. Generally, do the servers know what they're doing? Are they prepared? Are they competent? Do they screw up little enough to not eat into the margins? This falls on the manager the owner hires to oversee such things. Tomlin is this defacto tier in this poor analogy, and he'd rate a D+ at best.

You're delusional and are talking about things you obviously have no a lick of a clue about. Hence: clueless.

Thats exactly what im talking about. On site management is there to manage others. Make sure theyre staffed appropriately, manage personality conflict, make sure theyre prepped. Its a job almost everyone except a real f*** up can do. Its literally a job designed for unexceptional people.

There is still a number of people that cannot clear that low bar of competence (like Nathaniel Hackett etc) but its a pass fail job. Service matters more, how food is cooked matters more, ownership support matters more, corporate decisions on ingredients and menus items matter more than the guy who keeps the train running. That guy can undercut everything else if he’s incompetent, but a middle manager isn't elevating the other things hes a conduit.

Nobody thats exceptional takes a middle management job at a restaurant, and nobody thats an NFL coach is exceptional when compared to their counterparts. There are certainly incompetent coaches but no uniquely good ones, the ones who appear so are merely competent people surrounded by people who are exceptional.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I don’t exactly agree with the restaurant analogy, but Tomlin is far from a middle mgmt guy.

He has way too much power for who he hires up through the draft process.

He also runs the defense and doesn’t stay out of his coordinators way.

So Tomlin would be like the defacto owner of a once proud eatery that goes back generations, but now the real owner, a third generation guy, is too busy living off his parents and grandparents hard work… traveling the world and not paying much mind to the business.

The real owner checks in once in awhile and Tomlin tells the owner the restaurant is doing great, and the owner believes him.

Meanwhile Tomlin has turned this once highly respected restaurant into a strip joint and the owner thinks it’s great because the money is still rolling in.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Thats exactly what im talking about. On site management is there to manage others. Make sure theyre staffed appropriately, manage personality conflict, make sure theyre prepped. Its a job almost everyone except a real f*** up can do. Its literally a job designed for unexceptional people.

There is still a number of people that cannot clear that low bar of competence (like Nathaniel Hackett etc) but its a pass fail job. Service matters more, how food is cooked matters more, ownership support matters more, corporate decisions on ingredients and menus items matter more than the guy who keeps the train running. That guy can undercut everything else if he’s incompetent, but a middle manager isn't elevating the other things hes a conduit.

Nobody thats exceptional takes a middle management job at a restaurant, and nobody thats an NFL coach is exceptional when compared to their counterparts. There are certainly incompetent coaches but no uniquely good ones, the ones who appear so are merely competent people surrounded by people who are exceptional.

As someone who does indeed have a restaurant, a good manager is invaluable and not something any semi-competent person off the street can do. You are once again completely off-base.

You also gloss over the fact the managers are there to hire and train talent and use their employees to the best of the abilities and put them in positions that best fit their personalities and skills. You’re washing Tomlin of this aspect of management to avoid confronting reality. You need a shrink

 

[Power Surge]

Thats where your wrong. A HC is absolutely middle management. GMs and their support staff along with team presidents etc are upper mgmt. They’re the ones ultimately responsible for the roster, the cap mgmt, etc.

A HC much like middle mgmt. job is the manage the staff, keep everyone doing what theyre supposed to do.

Welp, You've just been served. I've got one more question for you, can you help me with this?

[Yt]

 

[Flying Dego]

If it takes an entire additional season for Tomlin to fire Matt Canada, he's an even bigger moron that I currently given him credit

Let's review. Canada and Co. Have discussed his system takes 3 years (LOL) to implement. Next year is year 3.

-Canada is a guy Tomlin brought in and Tomlin until further notice has all the power on his staff.

-If KP and the offense improve even to a subpar offense that's plenty of ammo for the brass to support seeing what they can do next year.

-Canada is also an amazing scapegoat for Tomlin. When push comes to shove Canada is zero threat to him.

I'd brace for the status quo and be happily suprised with any urgency to improve shown.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

As someone who does indeed have a restaurant, a good manager is invaluable and not something any semi-competent person off the street can do. You are once again completely off-base.

You also gloss over the fact the managers are there to hire and train talent and use their employees to the best of the abilities and put them in positions that best fit their personalities and skills. You’re washing Tomlin of this aspect of management to avoid confronting reality. You need a shrink

Have a restaurant? In what way do you have a restaurant?

Owner
Corp exec at a large chain
Middle manager

Welp, You've just been served. I've got one more question for you, can you help me with this?

[Yt]

Huh?

Hows that

 

[DanielPlainview]

Have a restaurant? In what way do you have a restaurant?

Owner
Corp exec at a large chain
Middle manager


Huh?

Hows that

We’ve officially entered the “it depends on what the definition of ‘is’ is” point of the discussion lmao

Have implies possession. Possession means?

It’s an old divy style bar restaurant. One of a few things I do, if you must know. Quality help is absolutely not easy to find, in this industry or any other, really.