The Official Pierre "high five" Dorion Thread | Part III

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

So maybe he was offered lesser picks than what Wilson got?

And why do you think that might be?

 

[Ice-Tray]

How did Ottawa get what they wanted?

If what they wanted was to turn Hoffman and a 5th into Boedker and a 6th, there are much bigger issues at play than being taken advantage of.

Given the tanked value, the need for expediting the trade, and the desire to get a roster player in return, Ottawa got what they wanted out of a crumby situation.

PD didn't want just later picks with little chance of ever producing an NHL player several years from now, he wanted a solid NHL player that could play on our team next year since we have lost a winger. Rather than force a rookie to play when they perhaps wanted to control ice time or shelter them, he opted for an NHL body who can play up and down the line-up and has a history with Duchene.

Now, folks who like picks can howl all the want about asset management, but there was no embarrassment or fleecing, PD wanted a player over the picks and went that direction.

It really does come down to a need to crap on everything the team does, coupled with a massive overvaluing of picks that statistically rarely produce players of the same caliber as the one we acquired instead.

The hard part for fans like myself is the same as the Fisher debates of old. You don't have to be over the moon with PD to find yourself having to argue endlessly with the nonstop negative hyperbole coming from a segment of the posters here. You see a lot more of a moderate position from me and others if we were dealing with moderate, or even rational in some cases, viewpoints. The reality is that it's pointless to argue with people venting, which is what we get a lot of around here this summer.

 

[Ice-Tray]

You're not really getting it. Boedker was literally a buyout/waiver candidate before we acquired him. The Sharks were willing to give him away for nothing.

NHL Rumors: San Jose Sharks and the Pittsburgh Penguins

From that link (feel free to search for more sources, there were tons of rumours around Boedker all year)

No I get it, but I also get that rumours are rumours, blogger are bloggers, and like most of the ones we've been hearing about all summer, they're full of crap.

If PD sees value in MB then I'm happy to have him over a couple of picks that have a slim chance of ever becoming NHL players at all, and certainly players we wouldn't see for years.

Just because SJ overpaid MB doesn't diminish his skills as an NHLer. It's convenient to cast the guy as a waiver wire cap dump who isn't very good, but that's not really the case.

The problem I have with your posts often enough is that you form a premise based on something tenuous, then you treat it as fact, and then expound your theories from there. That link you posted was a joke, and from that you decided that we could have acquired MB for nothing. There really isn't much more to say art this point.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Given the tanked value, the need for expediting the trade, and the desire to get a roster player in return, Ottawa got what they wanted out of a crumby situation.

PD didn't want just later picks with little chance of ever producing an NHL player several years from now, he wanted a solid NHL player that could play on our team next year since we have lost a winger. Rather than force a rookie to play when they perhaps wanted to control ice time or shelter them, he opted for an NHL body who can play up and down the line-up and has a history with Duchene.

Now, folks who like picks can howl all the want about asset management, but there was no embarrassment or fleecing, PD wanted a player over the picks and went that direction.

It really does come down to a need to crap on everything the team does, coupled with a massive overvaluing of picks that statistically rarely produce players of the same caliber as the one we acquired instead.

The hard part for fans like myself is the same as the Fisher debates of old. You don't have to be over the moon with PD to find yourself having to argue endlessly with the nonstop negative hyperbole coming from a segment of the posters here. You see a lot more of a moderate position from me and others if we were dealing with moderate, or even rational in some cases, viewpoints. The reality is that it's pointless to argue with people venting, which is what we get a lot of around here this summer.

What was the need for expedition of the trade again? To sign Karlsson? How's that going?

You can spin all you want but Dorion turn a 1st line player and a 5th into a 3rd line player and a 6th. He got had. There's no other way around it. The second he made the deal Wilson showed Hoffman still had value. The nice thing about having those picks is he can use them in many ways. He could probably easily turn the 2nd or 3rd into a better player than Boedker at the deadline or just continue to build his team at the draft table.

 

[BatherSeason]

PD didn't want just later picks with little chance of ever producing an NHL player several years from now, he wanted a solid NHL player that could play on our team next year since we have lost a winger. Rather than force a rookie to play when they perhaps wanted to control ice time or shelter them, he opted for an NHL body who can play up and down the line-up and has a history with Duchene.

Has PD publicly admitted this? How would anyone know what PD was doing there since it seems to me that PD hasn't said anything publicly since the town halls and a very brief media spot at the draft.

If PD sees value in MB then I'm happy to have him over a couple of picks that have a slim chance of ever becoming NHL players at all, and certainly players we wouldn't see for years.

Do you really trust this organization to identify pro talent? Burrows, Thompson, Dumont, McCormick, Oduya...shall I go on?? I don't see Boedkker being this fantastic find.

 

[BondraTime]

Given the tanked value, the need for expediting the trade, and the desire to get a roster player in return, Ottawa got what they wanted out of a crumby situation.

PD didn't want just later picks with little chance of ever producing an NHL player several years from now, he wanted a solid NHL player that could play on our team next year since we have lost a winger. Rather than force a rookie to play when they perhaps wanted to control ice time or shelter them, he opted for an NHL body who can play up and down the line-up and has a history with Duchene.

Now, folks who like picks can howl all the want about asset management, but there was no embarrassment or fleecing, PD wanted a player over the picks and went that direction.

It really does come down to a need to crap on everything the team does, coupled with a massive overvaluing of picks that statistically rarely produce players of the same caliber as the one we acquired instead.

The hard part for fans like myself is the same as the Fisher debates of old. You don't have to be over the moon with PD to find yourself having to argue endlessly with the nonstop negative hyperbole coming from a segment of the posters here. You see a lot more of a moderate position from me and others if we were dealing with moderate, or even rational in some cases, viewpoints. The reality is that it's pointless to argue with people venting, which is what we get a lot of around here this summer.

I see nothing the way you do, and that's fine. To each their own.

It's not a "need" to crap on everything, it's that it's come to it. It's happening and has been happening, and is continuing to happen in front of our faces. You can ignore and keep waiting for the positive side, but I'm not going to.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

And why do you think that might be?

I don't know that he was offered less and I'm not going to construct assumptions in order to justify my bias. I'll leave that up to you.

 

[Zorf]

What was the need for expedition of the trade again? To sign Karlsson? How's that going?

You can spin all you want but Dorion turn a 1st line player and a 5th into a 3rd line player and a 6th. He got had. There's no other way around it. The second he made the deal Wilson showed Hoffman still had value. The nice thing about having those picks is he can use them in many ways. He could probably easily turn the 2nd or 3rd into a better player than Boedker at the deadline or just continue to build his team at the draft table.

The real spin is that Dorion did the trade backwards.

Had he not been so obtuse in refusing to trade within the division, he could have realized that SJS wanted to dump Boedker's salary. With that in mind, he could have traded Hoffman to FLA for the picks and then flipped lesser picks to SJS for Boedker.

He probably could have come out of the trades with Boedker and the FLA 2nd.

But alas, Dorion is a GM who has the horse blinders on. He doesn't seem like a step back and reflect type of guy. He sees a deal and he does it. Ie: Burrows and Duchene trades.

Pretty bad trait, if we're being honest.

 

[Ice-Tray]

What was the need for expedition of the trade again? To sign Karlsson? How's that going?

You can spin all you want but Dorion turn a 1st line player and a 5th into a 3rd line player and a 6th. He got had. There's no other way around it. The second he made the deal Wilson showed Hoffman still had value. The nice thing about having those picks is he can use them in many ways. He could probably easily turn the 2nd or 3rd into a better player than Boedker at the deadline or just continue to build his team at the draft table.

I spin you spin, it's called sharing opinions, it's how it's done. Your position is based on the very same fairy dust mine are, believe it.

As far as how the quick removal of Hoffman from the roster affected EK, the answer is that we don't know. It could very well be the difference between him waiting around for new ownership. What we can say for certain is that from a 'caring for your captain' perspective, it was the right thing to do. The rest is just speculation at this point. Of course if he didn't;t do it you would be using it to argue how terrible PD is towards EK and his family and how there is no chance that he re-signs... You know you would.

Hoffman turned himself into a 2nd/5th or Boedker. PD tank his value, and you even prefaced that point by accusing me of spinning, like seriously? The thing is, we will continue to build the team at the draft table anyways, and we can add picks along the way regardless, it's not one or the other, but while you say that maybe we could have gotten a better player than Boedker for a 2nd (debatable), a full successful season by Boedker could either net us some draft picks, or we can just enjoy having a solid middle six guy on our team that helps us win while allowing us to bring the kids along slowly. Add in that he has shown good chemistry with our #1 centre before and it could be even better than we hope. Rather that gamble than the draft pick gamble personally.

Anyways, like most hockey related issue, we disagree about this one too.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Has PD publicly admitted this? How would anyone know what PD was doing there since it seems to me that PD hasn't said anything publicly since the town halls and a very brief media spot at the draft.



Do you really trust this organization to identify pro talent? Burrows, Thompson, Dumont, McCormick, Oduya...shall I go on?? I don't see Boedkker being this fantastic find.

Yes, he said he wanted a player not draft picks. Burrows was fine when picked up, 0.5 pig player for us down the stretch, then fell off a cliff with the rest of the team. The extension was a shame, though for a West coaster like myself it's understandable to have a soft spot for Burrows. Thompson was fine on the fourth line, I mean he was picked up to centre the fourth line. I'm fine with him being let go as he was unspectacular on a team that crashed and burned. I'm glad they didn't throw a kid in that spot though, aren't you?

Oduya was a gamble on him still having it, and he was miscast as a top lone defender. He definitely didn't have it.

We have found some gems like Stalberg, Pyatt and Condon for bargain prices as well, but when you're shopping in that bin it's hit and miss for sure.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Had he not been so obtuse in refusing to trade within the division, he could have realized that SJS wanted to dump Boedker's salary. With that in mind, he could have traded Hoffman to FLA for the picks and then flipped lesser picks to SJS for Boedker.

That is a very risky move if getting a roster player back for Hoffman was priority number 1. What if San Jose unloads Boedker to someone else before you can flip the picks? Who says San Jose is ok with dumping Boedker for a 3rd and a 5th? We don't know that Wilson would have accepted.

I'm not sure it's fair to blame the guy for not knowing everything we now know. Your scenario isn't outlandish but there is a reason why these things don't happen often and I don't think it's because GMs aren't bright. They are risk averse.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I see nothing the way you do, and that's fine. To each their own.

It's not a "need" to crap on everything, it's that it's come to it. It's happening and has been happening, and is continuing to happen in front of our faces. You can ignore and keep waiting for the positive side, but I'm not going to.

We defiantly disagree often, and no, things never get to a place where you 'have' to crap on everything, that's just the way you look at things. I find it a shame that folks who complain about everything have to rely on the assumption that just because I don't, and that I can find enjoyment in the things around me, that I must be blind or ignoring things.

Perhaps it's actually you thats missing something? I don't see any value in choosing to be miserable, especially when it comes to something so relatively meaningless as sports fandom. I could dwell on the negative like you and others, or I can enjoy the small positive/interesting signs here and there, and look forward to the various unknowns that will unfold.

Keep doing you, I'm good being me.

 

[BatherSeason]

Yes, he said he wanted a player not draft picks. Burrows was fine when picked up, 0.5 pig player for us down the stretch, then fell off a cliff with the rest of the team. The extension was a shame, though for a West coaster like myself it's understandable to have a soft spot for Burrows. Thompson was fine on the fourth line, I mean he was picked up to centre the fourth line. I'm fine with him being let go as he was unspectacular on a team that crashed and burned. I'm glad they didn't throw a kid in that spot though, aren't you?

Oduya was a gamble on him still having it, and he was miscast as a top lone defender. He definitely didn't have it.

We have found some gems like Stalberg, Pyatt and Condon for bargain prices as well, but when you're shopping in that bin it's hit and miss for sure.

I really admire your positivity where PD is concerned, I just see it from a completely different view. Pro sports teams don't have a large margin of error, covering up player personnel mistakes are quite difficult.

Burrows had 2 games where he really stood out, that's it, and one was his first game here. In my opinion, he was invisible 90% of the time. Heck, we acquired him to be a pest and he didn't even do that. I can't speak for what he provided off the ice, but with all the issues, he certainly didn't help

Thompson: Yes a kid would have been more effective there

As for Pyatt, Condon, Stalberg, well, lets not go so far to call them "gems", Condon provided a spark when a spark was needed and helped us through a tough strectch when Andy was away, his save % was still only .914, and he was pretty bad llast year.

Pyatt's effectiveness is debatable. Can't call a guy who has only scored 16 goals in a Sens uniform a "gem"

Not ure we even need to speak on Oduya.

 

[BondraTime]

We defiantly disagree often, and no, things never get to a place where you 'have' to crap on everything, that's just the way you look at things. I find it a shame that folks who complain about everything have to rely on the assumption that just because I don't, and that I can find enjoyment in the things around me, that I must be blind or ignoring things.

Perhaps it's actually you thats missing something? I don't see any value in choosing to be miserable, especially when it comes to something so relatively meaningless as sports fandom. I could dwell on the negative like you and others, or I can enjoy the small positive/interesting signs here and there, and look forward to the various unknowns that will unfold.

Keep doing you, I'm good being me.

I mean, yeah. When things are being run very terribly (they are), I shit on them. If things were being run great, I'd compliment them.

I don't think so, I'm not miserable whatsoever. It's a sport I like watching. It sucks that it's been run to the ground, but that's life. I'm not going to call a goblin a princess though, that's the opposite of being positive, that's just ignoring reality to stay positive.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Knowing what is available publicly and how the owner currently operates with cash being the #1 focus above winning and with no insider knowledge, I would have dealt Hoff for picks and gone dumpster diving in the shallow end of the UFA pool for the slightly warm hopefully still alive body, the optics of that trade look glaringly bad especially with another GM seemingly dunking on Pierre not 30 minutes later imo.

edit: forgot to mention I don't personally blame Pierre for the trade or most moves because I assume there are severe financial obstacles placed on him from ownership....outside of the burrows trade, has been and always will be a huge whiff imo.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Knowing what is available publicly and how the owner currently operates with cash being the #1 focus above winning and with no insider knowledge, I would have dealt Hoff for picks and gone dumpster diving in the shallow end of the UFA pool for the slightly warm hopefully still alive body, the optics of that trade look glaringly bad especially with another GM seemingly dunking on Pierre not 30 minutes later imo.

Exactly. There would have been little difference in scrapping the bottom of the barrel of the FA market and acquiring Boedker. Could have saved cash and picked up one year deal trade deadline fodder like Ennis, Maroon, Rieder or Duclair.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I don't entirely agree with it, but I do think he is viewed as a guy easy to take advantage of from other GM's.

Tallon couldn't get Hoffman for what he wanted from Dorion (even though he said he never offered them to him....), so he got him for what he wanted from Wilson, who also got what he wanted from Dorion in taking his Boedker contract, and Dorion ended up getting the worst return of the 3 teams. I do definitely view that as being taken advantage of by 2 GM's in some respects for certain.

And he is earning that reputation with this deal , the Turris deal and the Burrows deal..

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Knowing what is available publicly and how the owner currently operates with cash being the #1 focus above winning and with no insider knowledge, I would have dealt Hoff for picks and gone dumpster diving in the shallow end of the UFA pool for the slightly warm hopefully still alive body, the optics of that trade look glaringly bad especially with another GM seemingly dunking on Pierre not 30 minutes later imo.

edit: forgot to mention I don't personally blame Pierre for the trade or most moves because I assume there are severe financial obstacles placed on him from ownership....outside of the burrows trade, has been and always will be a huge whiff imo.

There is that .. but there is also having some pride in yourself the job you are supposed to be performing. If that is to be Melnyk's yes man GM that's primary motivation is shedding dollars .. do you really want that job as a GM. He has to have more backbone imo or take a different job.

 

[NorthCoast]

It's bad asset management that your preferred scenario, which is entirely a fabrication of your imagination (none of those UFAs were going to end up here unless we massively overpaid and we all know this), didn't happen?

You take option 1 if the goal is to make the playoffs, you take option 2 if you are rebuilding.

Dorion was offered 2 and said no, Tallon said so. Therefore we know Dorion is not interested in rebuilding.

You can challenge his position on that front all you want, that's not what started this. What started this was FQL claiming that Dorion was "humiliated" and "no other GM respects him" because Wilson took the offer Dorion turned down.

Before I forget, you still didn't answer my question of what your measure of success for a GM is. Do you agree with my criteria or do you have your own?


Okay, so I guess we will have to totally disagree on whether the UFA's would sign. All the UFA's I mentioned in option # 2 remain unsigned as of this post. Maybe 1-2 of them is holding out for 2-3 mil and actually gets in, but for the most part these late 20s, early 30s, 3rd liners (on a decent team), get picket up for 1-2 mil. Pouliot signed a 1.15 mil deal for 1 year last summer. Do you really think that any of the players I mentioned in option #2 are going to get Boedker money? Do you really think that any of these players would choose to sit out the year instead of play for the senators for 1-2 years?

If you want to dispute this fine, but at least provide some evidence beyond "we all know this",


This is what the senators roster looks like in 2019 - 2020 as of right now:

Ryan - Pageau - Boedker
Gaborik - Smith - ???
??? - ??? - ???
??? - ??? - ???

Chabot - Ceci
Boro - Harpur
??? - ???

Anderson
Condon


If I am another GM and I am looking at this while I am on the phone with PD and he is insisting that he is not going into a rebuild and needs a player back to try and make a playoff run this year then yes, he should feel humiliated, because the other GM is laughing at his horribly short-sighted strategy.

If you don't know yet whether EK, Stone, Duchene are signing long-term, and you don't know what you might get for them, then wouldn't you want the most flexible assets back as possible. ie: picks. Then once you know what you are doing you can use those picks to support the strategy. Unless you feel that a 2nd, 4th, and 5th round pick are not enough to land a player of Boadker's skill level in a trade.


Sorry, but in a vacuum this trade was horrible. Now maybe PD is getting a pass from the other GMs because of Melnyk, but when the hockey world generally agrees that Wilson made out with the better assets, then you better be right. Nothing is more humiliating to a GM than miss-evaluating your team, taking players over picks, missing the playoffs, and then missing out at the draft as well. (Duchene deal, cough cough)

 

[Do Make Say Think]

but when the hockey world generally agrees that Wilson made out with the better assets

That's because the hockey world is full of bumbling idiots.

The same idiots who all tell us that Karlsson is about to be traded and...... nothing.

The picks did nothing for us for this upcoming season, Boedker will.

And again, my only qualm was someone saying Dorion was "humiliated" and "is not respected by other GMs", I'm not saying it was a great trade.

As far as evaluating GMs I don't ascribe to one size fits all evaluations. Dorion has been treading water at best, I don't think he's a disaster but he's certainly not great either. I like how aggressive he is in terms of making trades happen but his track record is spotty (and I like the Duchene trade a lot as long as we don't finish bottom 3 and keep Dooch)

 

[Langdon Alger]

Go look at what Muckler did with that team. Give it an honest go, if you cant rememeber you must be a new fan or have a bad memory. That statement is so out of wack 'Murray inherited a SCF team'. Lol

Well, he did inherit a team that had just been to the finals, that’s true, but the problem was Mickler left him nothing in terms of prospects. It wasn’t an awful situation to walk into, since the roster had Alfie, Spezza, Heatley, Redden, Fisher etc, but there wasn’t anything in the system worth getting excited about.

 

[NorthCoast]

Dorion has been treading water at best, I don't think he's a disaster but he's certainly not great either. I like how aggressive he is in terms of making trades happen but his track record is spotty (and I like the Duchene trade a lot as long as we don't finish bottom 3 and keep Dooch)

Yeah, sorry I didn't re-read the whole thread.

I still find it hard to justify anything based on this season without knowing what the long-term plan is but alas, I am mostly on board with the quote above.

Cheers.

 

[topshelf15]

We got bent over in the Hoffman deal no way around around it,PD did his best at damage control to keep our most important asset happy..And to get something else than just picks back ,should also be viewed part of that whole mechanism .....EK likely doesnt give two shits about a couple of late picks,that wont help the team and him next season...

 

[JD1]

And he is earning that reputation with this deal , the Turris deal and the Burrows deal..

you sure you're not just imposing your perspective on those deals ?

the year in which he made the Burrows deal he was a candidate for GM of the year

The way the Hoffman situation evolved getting anything of better value was alpretty limited

The Turris deal is one many are pretty good with. We indisputably got the better player, upgraded the 1C position in the process and avoided a contract with Turris that I suspect Poile us worried about and it hasn't even started yet

look around the league at the cost of 1Cs. Montreal gave up Sergachev for a player they hoped could be a 1C and it hasn't worked out. Nashville gave up Seth Jones. Players in those 1C positions are hard to acquire and we paid a price to do so. I view Duchene at a comparable level to Johansen and a clear step above the kid in Montreal. And we didn't give up what was given up by those other teams to get the player we got.

everyone is entitled to opinions, good bad or indifferent. but stating the Turris trade as bad as a fact....I guess the best I can say to that is everyone's facts are different

 

[danielpalfredsson]

There's no way to spin the Hoffman trade positively because of the flip to FLA. We know Dorion talked to FLA, he essentially admitted it. So unless he was lying to the fan base, it's not like it's a situation where he traded Hoffman to the West to appease Karlsson rather than in the division where Karlsson would see Hoffman multiple times a year.

If it was just Hoffman to SJS and they kept him, I'd give Dorion a pass.

But look at it this way. If Dorion goes out and trades Hoffman to FLA for the 2019 2nd+4th+5th, does SJS turn down Pittsburgh's 2019 3rd for Boedker? Probably not. It might have even cost less than that. They just gave big money to Evander Kane and were preparing to potentially pay Tavares 12 million, in this scenario when it came to acquiring Boedker, Dorion should have been in a position of strength.