HF Habs: The official 2023-2024 tank thread

[BLONG7]

Don't believe Lindström will be your saviour. The D is too deep. You will see him playing in Laval.

More than likely, but the kid will probably be around for awhile compared to Petry.

He was a good Dman for years, I just didn't like how he quit on the team and seemed to sook his way out...........Lindstrom will create some depth at D and will more than likely play in Laval, barring any more deals involving D before the season starts.

 

[BLONG7]

In reference to just one season's worth of performance I think they're comparable.

Drouin had 29 in 58, exactly 0.5ppg, while Newhook (on a better team) got 0.36ppg. PPG isn't the be all end all but I don't think they're galaxies apart even if you do take into account durability and defensive performance. Newhook is statistically much much better defensively from what I just saw on NHL stats so that's encouraging though, looking forward to an upgrade there, but Avs fans don't have good things to say about his physical or defensive play either. He might be thrown to the wolves here with our much worse team and more leaky defense.

Newhook is 6-7 years younger, with speed to burn as compared to JD who was a floater, and was scared of his own shadow. Newhook will back check, and will go to the net....................huge win win for us..............Drouin was sorely painful to watch the last 4 years, when he even played.

 

[DAChampion]

Absolutely not. I don't have spare time as it is and NHL games are hardly exciting, and the Habs have next to no exciting talents to follow outside of sniper Caufield.



The Habs are scored on more often than they're featured as goal scorers in this video. I had some thoughts and reflections while watching this absolutely amazing highlight reel but I'll keep them to myself for now.


Age and Price are irrelevant when discussing the prognosis of a single season but sure, I can buy accept that Newhook's 30pts but superior upside is a clear and definitive upgrade on Drouin for the coming season. Drouin was soft and generally terrible.

I'm thinking of watching the AHL with intensity as an exercise to improve my detailed understanding of the game, so I can get the finer points more. If I'm going to spend a lot of time here I might as well do so with higher quality. Plus those game day threads are actually the highest-IQ threads on the forum. I learned that from watching the Kotkaniemi games. In contrast the Habs game day threads
... Ooouuuuf.

 

[ML16]

More than likely, but the kid will probably be around for awhile compared to Petry.

He was a good Dman for years, I just didn't like how he quit on the team and seemed to sook his way out...........Lindstrom will create some depth at D and will more than likely play in Laval, barring any more deals involving D before the season starts.

As it stands, I highly doubt another D is moved before the season; the battles at camp should thus be very interesting.

And with Matheson, Guhle, Harris and Savard all NHL-bound - and considering Guhle and Harris can also play RD - the choice to start the season could actually be between the waiver-exempts (Barron or Xhekaj) rather than Kovacevic or Lindstrom:

Matheson - Guhle
Harris - Kovacevic
Xhekaj - Savard
Lindstrom
(Barron in the AHL until a trade/injury)

Matheson - Savard
Guhle - Barron
Harris - Kovacevic
Lindstrom
(Xhekaj in the AHL until a trade/injury)

 

[HABitual Fan]

In reference to just one season's worth of performance I think they're comparable.

Drouin had 29 in 58, exactly 0.5ppg, while Newhook (on a better team) got 0.36ppg. PPG isn't the be all end all but I don't think they're galaxies apart even if you do take into account durability and defensive performance. Newhook is statistically much much better defensively from what I just saw on NHL stats so that's encouraging though, looking forward to an upgrade there, but Avs fans don't have good things to say about his physical or defensive play either. He might be thrown to the wolves here with our much worse team and more leaky defense.

Hopefully Newhook will get better ice time here, and also get points on the PP, something Drouin failed to do no matter how much he was playing on it.

 

[RationalExpectations]

Anaheim, Columbus, Chicago, San Jose all finished below us last season and will probably do so again. Philly is likely dropping a lot, and we could quite easily beat Arizona and although hard to predict which team exactly there's usually at least one that has an unexpectedly bad year which would put us 8th from the bottom. And if some of our guys stay healthy and/or take the next step in their development we could quite easily be sitting outside the top-10.

West is weaker so it could give ANA ARI a few additional points. SJS and CHI should be bad. CBJ should be better but by how much?. PHI, WSH should be worse.

All in all, it will all depend on Habs player development and injuries.

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

I hear the draft is really strong next year.

 

[Twisted Sinister]

Trolling usually means bending the truth or manipulating. Making a joke about closing this loser mentality topic isn’t trolling. Why even watch their games if you pray for losses. The NHL is so unpredictable and you never know what can happen. Will Montreal be a playoff team? Probably not. Have we seen crazy things happen with allegedly shit teams making it and having a run? Yes. I get my hopes up for this team and I believe they can make some noise and be a fun team to watch. To hope they lose in my opinion isn’t a true fan and if someone says they want to tank to have success in the long term then I can think of endless examples of teams where that hasn’t worked out at all. It’s worked but it’s far and few between. I see you and where you’re coming from and that’s what makes this forum fun. If everyone agreed on everything here it would be so boring lol

I would argue that the loser mentality is wanting instant gratification at the expense of longterm success. That's generally how true losers are created, both in life and in sports. It's one of the reasons that the Canadiens have been mired in mediocrity and terribility for so long. The idea that you can get in and anything can happen rather than rebuilding like teams that have had legitimate longterm success in this league.

People want to build a Chicago or a Pittsburgh or a Tampa or a Colorado... a sustainable elite team with actual talent rather than the boring defensive sleep-inducing failure we've come to endure. You can, of course, have the opposite opinion. However, acting like your opinion makes you a true fan while others are not is pretty damn arrogant. No one if the God King of Habs fans to judge what a true fan is or isn't.

I think the point may be moot anyway. They stubbornly failed at tanking last year while still sucking, didn't draft a potential generational talent even though they had the chance, and their window for the rebuild might be closing. They do not have high-end talent and seem to be headed for Detroit's failed rebuild rather than any of the teams I mentioned.

 

[1909]

I am really looking forward to see Newhook's impact on that team. For me, it remains, for the moment, a useless acquisition. IF Hughes thinks that the centerline is set with Suzuki-Dach-Monahan-Dvorak-Evans and in a near future, Beck, why acquire a player like Newhook who will end up playing on a wing ? He is not the type of winger Habs need. Plus giving a 1st rounder + a second rounder for that is very steep price to pay. Hughes won't get a "Dach" out of the magic hat every season. He could had waited, make the picks or trade one or the other (or both) for a higher (better) pick or a more needed player.

 

[StCaufield]

I would argue that the loser mentality is wanting instant gratification at the expense of longterm success. That's generally how true losers are created, both in life and in sports. It's one of the reasons that the Canadiens have been mired in mediocrity and terribility for so long. The idea that you can get in and anything can happen rather than rebuilding like teams that have had legitimate longterm success in this league.

People want to build a Chicago or a Pittsburgh or a Tampa or a Colorado... a sustainable elite team with actual talent rather than the boring defensive sleep-inducing failure we've come to endure. You can, of course, have the opposite opinion. However, acting like your opinion makes you a true fan while others are not is pretty damn arrogant. No one if the God King of Habs fans to judge what a true fan is or isn't.

I think the point may be moot anyway. They stubbornly failed at tanking last year while still sucking, didn't draft a potential generational talent even though they had the chance, and their window for the rebuild might be closing. They do not have high-end talent and seem to be headed for Detroit's failed rebuild rather than any of the teams I mentioned.

Thats 100% opinion. All of it. Plenty of teams didn't have to tank to be good in the future. Maybe if we had decent management for the last 30 years you wouldn’t be here wishing to lose.

 

[DAChampion]

I would argue that the loser mentality is wanting instant gratification at the expense of longterm success. That's generally how true losers are created, both in life and in sports.

Quoted for truth.

 

[Twisted Sinister]

Thats 100% opinion. All of it. Plenty of teams didn't have to tank to be good in the future. Maybe if we had decent management for the last 30 years you wouldn’t be here wishing to lose.

It's opinion, sure, but some opinions are more well-founded than others.

I have statistical data backing me up. How many cup-winning teams that managed to stay good for a really long time rebuilt? Tampa? Penguins? Blackhawks? Caps? Kings? Some of whom won multiple cups, all of whom were elite teams for many years?

Sure, there are outliers. St-Louis fluked one out, but were never elite before or since. Vegas basically got some crazy expansion rules and almost won in their first year. Since then, they added, Eichel and Pietrangelo, elite talent that we never seem to add.

The Bruins are the only team that's been elite forever without rebuilding due to their phenomenal management and even then, they only have the one cup. 1/32 is not great odds as a model to follow.

I get you want to just come home after a long day of work, turn off your brain, and watch your team win, but that doesn't mean people that want long-term success aren't real fans. That just means you think you're better than other people that share a different opinion. And you aren't.

 

[StCaufield]

It's opinion, sure, but some opinions are more well-founded than others.

I have statistical data backing me up. How many cup-winning teams that managed to stay good for a really long time rebuilt? Tampa? Penguins? Blackhawks? Caps? Kings? Some of whom won multiple cups, all of whom were elite teams for many years?

Sure, there are outliers. St-Louis fluked one out, but were never elite before or since. Vegas basically got some crazy expansion rules and almost won in their first year. Since then, they added, Eichel and Pietrangelo, elite talent that we never seem to add.

The Bruins are the only team that's been elite forever without rebuilding due to their phenomenal management and even then, they only have the one cup. 1/32 is not great odds as a model to follow.

I get you want to just come home after a long day of work, turn off your brain, and watch your team win, but that doesn't mean people that want long-term success aren't real fans. That just means you think you're better than other people that share a different opinion. And you aren't.

Most teams don’t even have to tank to win. It’s a flawed mentality. We have prospects but for some reason in this conversation they don’t exist. Yes a loser mentality is expecting success without failure but it doesn’t have to always be the case. Not every single team needs to tank to win a cup. Teams just need to keep improving over time and I can see it with Montreal. Complain all you want if we don’t have a generational talent right now. Every team wants that and not many do. I don’t know what you’re expecting other than disappointment and losses. Most teams don’t need to finish last for numerous years in a row to be a contender. It’s quite unrealistic

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

In 2012 we went from from 3rd last to 4th best in the league and the only thing that happened was young guys taking the next step in their development and generally everyone becoming healthy.

That's entirely false. What happened is we got our MVP back. We made the playoffs every year except one from the moment Markov truly brokeout up to his injuries between 2010/2012. Our record with/without him was eye opening.

It was an insanely easy bet to make, for me, in the summer of 2012. Markov coming back + Subban + Price.

Also,the old ploy of using "3rd last" when they had a record number of points for a 28th placed team, were only -4 in win differential and their +/- belonged to a team that should've finished higher. They also led the league in injuries. Last year's team was -14 in win diff. Quite a different story.

 

[Milhouse40]

It's opinion, sure, but some opinions are more well-founded than others.

I have statistical data backing me up. How many cup-winning teams that managed to stay good for a really long time rebuilt? Tampa? Penguins? Blackhawks? Caps? Kings? Some of whom won multiple cups, all of whom were elite teams for many years?

Sure, there are outliers. St-Louis fluked one out, but were never elite before or since. Vegas basically got some crazy expansion rules and almost won in their first year. Since then, they added, Eichel and Pietrangelo, elite talent that we never seem to add.

The Bruins are the only team that's been elite forever without rebuilding due to their phenomenal management and even then, they only have the one cup. 1/32 is not great odds as a model to follow.

I get you want to just come home after a long day of work, turn off your brain, and watch your team win, but that doesn't mean people that want long-term success aren't real fans. That just means you think you're better than other people that share a different opinion. And you aren't.

Okay. It's all a matter of your perception of the team.

First 25 games of last year, Dach played with Nick and Cole for like 15 games.
Suzuki was on pace for a 92 points season.
Cole was close to a PPG
Dach was on pace for 60 points but just started to find his game.

So the way I see it.....I have the recipe to get at least two guy above PPG status.
1- Play them with other offensively gifted players on their line.
2- Another top 6 center able to take some tough match-up while still being a threat offensively to back him up.

At least that recipe was enough for Suzuki to have a 90+ points pace and Cole to be close to PPG.

Now add two things they did not had during that time to the mix:
1- A working PP
2- Play them with offensively gifted D

Now next year they have the chance to replicate that....with Matheson on D (he never played one game with the duo Suzuki-Caufield)

Some players, even top quality players like MacKinnon or Rantanen, often takes a couple of season before putting it together.

 

[Sorinth]

That's entirely false. What happened is we got our MVP back. We made the playoffs every year except one from the moment Markov truly brokeout up to his injuries between 2010/2012. Our record with/without him was eye opening.

It was an insanely easy bet to make, for me, in the summer of 2012. Markov coming back + Subban + Price.

Also,the old ploy of using "3rd last" when they had a record number of points for a 28th placed team, were only -4 in win differential and their +/- belonged to a team that should've finished higher. They also led the league in injuries. Last year's team was -14 in win diff. Quite a different story.

You do realize I mentioned getting healthy in my post right. Markov alone wasn't enough to bring us to the top of the league but yes it was a big part of it. So was Subban going from a 40 point 1st pairing guy to a Norris winning D, so was Eller playing like a top-6 C in a 3rd line role, so was adding young guns like Galchenyuk and Gallagher. Even Price took a big step development wise.

 

[Sorinth]

It's opinion, sure, but some opinions are more well-founded than others.

I have statistical data backing me up. How many cup-winning teams that managed to stay good for a really long time rebuilt? Tampa? Penguins? Blackhawks? Caps? Kings? Some of whom won multiple cups, all of whom were elite teams for many years?

Sure, there are outliers. St-Louis fluked one out, but were never elite before or since. Vegas basically got some crazy expansion rules and almost won in their first year. Since then, they added, Eichel and Pietrangelo, elite talent that we never seem to add.

The Bruins are the only team that's been elite forever without rebuilding due to their phenomenal management and even then, they only have the one cup. 1/32 is not great odds as a model to follow.

I get you want to just come home after a long day of work, turn off your brain, and watch your team win, but that doesn't mean people that want long-term success aren't real fans. That just means you think you're better than other people that share a different opinion. And you aren't.

And if we had won the cup when we went to the finals we would also be on that list of teams because Price 5th OA, KK 3rd OA, technically even Drouin was part of the team as another 3rd OA. Which just goes to show that you don't have to tank to get top picks since we never tanked and would be listed with all the other tanking teams. Everybody has top picks the difference is hitting on those picks, we hit on Price but missed on Galchenyuk, KK, traded Sergachev who hit for a miss like Drouin, etc...

The reason almost all teams to win cups have top picks is because virtually every team has top picks on it.

 

[Gravity]

I would argue that the loser mentality is wanting instant gratification at the expense of longterm success. That's generally how true losers are created, both in life and in sports. It's one of the reasons that the Canadiens have been mired in mediocrity and terribility for so long. The idea that you can get in and anything can happen rather than rebuilding like teams that have had legitimate longterm success in this league.

People want to build a Chicago or a Pittsburgh or a Tampa or a Colorado... a sustainable elite team with actual talent rather than the boring defensive sleep-inducing failure we've come to endure. You can, of course, have the opposite opinion. However, acting like your opinion makes you a true fan while others are not is pretty damn arrogant. No one if the God King of Habs fans to judge what a true fan is or isn't.

I think the point may be moot anyway. They stubbornly failed at tanking last year while still sucking, didn't draft a potential generational talent even though they had the chance, and their window for the rebuild might be closing. They do not have high-end talent and seem to be headed for Detroit's failed rebuild rather than any of the teams I mentioned.

A.M.E.N.

 

[DAChampion]

I hear the draft is really strong next year.

The deepest draft since 2003

 

[Scriptor]

I would argue that the loser mentality is wanting instant gratification at the expense of longterm success. That's generally how true losers are created, both in life and in sports. It's one of the reasons that the Canadiens have been mired in mediocrity and terribility for so long. The idea that you can get in and anything can happen rather than rebuilding like teams that have had legitimate longterm success in this league.

People want to build a Chicago or a Pittsburgh or a Tampa or a Colorado... a sustainable elite team with actual talent rather than the boring defensive sleep-inducing failure we've come to endure. You can, of course, have the opposite opinion. However, acting like your opinion makes you a true fan while others are not is pretty damn arrogant. No one if the God King of Habs fans to judge what a true fan is or isn't.

I think the point may be moot anyway. They stubbornly failed at tanking last year while still sucking, didn't draft a potential generational talent even though they had the chance, and their window for the rebuild might be closing. They do not have high-end talent and seem to be headed for Detroit's failed rebuild rather than any of the teams I mentioned.

Unfortunately, the only way you can imagine a rebuild happening is through tanking.

You sit at one extreme of the spectrum, firmly entrenched in this tunnel vision of how rebuild is done.

You lumps anything else into the same alternate extreme at the other end of the spectrum, not even acknowledging the myriad of degrees founding there methods of rebuilding.

Not all other means of rebuilding amount to sacrificing offensive talent (or talent, period, as you put it) for anti-hockey serving defensive stalwarts.

Basically, until you can recognize something else than the caricature you have made overbuilding without tanking, while not being less of a real fan for it, you demonstrate an inability to be creative.

 

[NORiculous]

I am really looking forward to see Newhook's impact on that team. For me, it remains, for the moment, a useless acquisition. IF Hughes thinks that the centerline is set with Suzuki-Dach-Monahan-Dvorak-Evans and in a near future, Beck, why acquire a player like Newhook who will end up playing on a wing ? He is not the type of winger Habs need. Plus giving a 1st rounder + a second rounder for that is very steep price to pay. Hughes won't get a "Dach" out of the magic hat every season. He could had waited, make the picks or trade one or the other (or both) for a higher (better) pick or a more needed player.

Why isn’t he the type of winger the Habs need? Newhook has a high ceiling, how many high ceiling wingers do the Habs have not named Caufield?

Okay. It's all a matter of your perception of the team.

View attachment 737835

First 25 games of last year, Dach played with Nick and Cole for like 15 games.
Suzuki was on pace for a 92 points season.
Cole was close to a PPG
Dach was on pace for 60 points but just started to find his game.

So the way I see it.....I have the recipe to get at least two guy above PPG status.
1- Play them with other offensively gifted players on their line.
2- Another top 6 center able to take some tough match-up while still being a threat offensively to back him up.

At least that recipe was enough for Suzuki to have a 90+ points pace and Cole to be close to PPG.

Now add two things they did not had during that time to the mix:
1- A working PP
2- Play them with offensively gifted D

Now next year they have the chance to replicate that....with Matheson on D (he never played one game with the duo Suzuki-Caufield)

Some players, even top quality players like MacKinnon or Rantanen, often takes a couple of season before putting it together.

Dvorak had a game once where he scored 3 goals. Man… if he could do that every game, the Habs would have a 240 goal player!

Ok… jokes aside

Even if I agree the Habs need a top C, using 25 games doesn’t seem like a very solid argument.

MacKinnon took time but still had 63 pts rookie year and Rantanen destroyed the AHL. I don’t think the Habs have anyone with that kind of ceiling, which is the main problem they have. They could just be recreating a Koivu 2.0 situation.

 

[Gravity]

Unfortunately, the only way you can imagine a rebuild happening is through tanking.

You sit at one extreme of the spectrum, firmly entrenched in this tunnel vision of how rebuild is done.

You lumps anything else into the same alternate extreme at the other end of the spectrum, not even acknowledging the myriad of degrees founding there methods of rebuilding.

Not all other means of rebuilding amount to sacrificing offensive talent (or talent, period, as you put it) for anti-hockey serving defensive stalwarts.

Basically, until you can recognize something else than the caricature you have made overbuilding without tanking, while not being less of a real fan for it, you demonstrate an inability to be creative.

Every successful recent rebuild (~20 years or so) has been mired in tanking or the consequences of tanking. So it's not extreme, it's a pragmatic viewpoint.

 

[Twisted Sinister]

And if we had won the cup when we went to the finals we would also be on that list of teams because Price 5th OA, KK 3rd OA, technically even Drouin was part of the team as another 3rd OA. Which just goes to show that you don't have to tank to get top picks since we never tanked and would be listed with all the other tanking teams. Everybody has top picks the difference is hitting on those picks, we hit on Price but missed on Galchenyuk, KK, traded Sergachev who hit for a miss like Drouin, etc...

The reason almost all teams to win cups have top picks is because virtually every team has top picks on it.

But we didn't. Because the ridiculously covid fluky circumstances/horseshoe up the ass that got us to the final finally ran out when we ran into an actual elite team. Maybe if we'd face NO elite teams that year, we would have won something.

Okay. It's all a matter of your perception of the team.

View attachment 737835

First 25 games of last year, Dach played with Nick and Cole for like 15 games.
Suzuki was on pace for a 92 points season.
Cole was close to a PPG
Dach was on pace for 60 points but just started to find his game.

So the way I see it.....I have the recipe to get at least two guy above PPG status.
1- Play them with other offensively gifted players on their line.
2- Another top 6 center able to take some tough match-up while still being a threat offensively to back him up.

At least that recipe was enough for Suzuki to have a 90+ points pace and Cole to be close to PPG.

Now add two things they did not had during that time to the mix:
1- A working PP
2- Play them with offensively gifted D

Now next year they have the chance to replicate that....with Matheson on D (he never played one game with the duo Suzuki-Caufield)

Some players, even top quality players like MacKinnon or Rantanen, often takes a couple of season before putting it together.

This is something Habs fans always do. We extrapolate success when there isn't any based on small sample sizes. Brian Savage was never a 50 goal scorer. Similarly, Suzuki isn't a PPG player until he is, and Caufield isn't a 50-goal scorer until he is.

Caufield is the closest thing we have to s star talent, but he doesn't hold a candle to the Kanes, Crosbies, Hedmans, or Ovies of this world. He's too one-dimensional. We do have guys that can be somewhat talented in a vacuum. The problem is when you compare them to what other teams have. There is nothing in our system that makes our core more talented than... Arizona's for example. Or the murderer's row of the Atlantic. What sets us apart? The 6'2" safe defenseman we just drafted?

Most teams don’t even have to tank to win. It’s a flawed mentality. We have prospects but for some reason in this conversation they don’t exist. Yes a loser mentality is expecting success without failure but it doesn’t have to always be the case. Not every single team needs to tank to win a cup. Teams just need to keep improving over time and I can see it with Montreal. Complain all you want if we don’t have a generational talent right now. Every team wants that and not many do. I don’t know what you’re expecting other than disappointment and losses. Most teams don’t need to finish last for numerous years in a row to be a contender. It’s quite unrealistic

Thems a lot of pretty words, but the idea that "Most teams don’t even have to tank to win" isn't supported by data. Sadly, while everyone's allowed to have an opinion, opinions can be wrong. The data shows that teams that have rebuilt with talent are more likely to win cups and have long strings of success than complete randos.

As for our prospects, my opinion is that they're mid AF. Lots of potential NHLers. Zero elite talent. Canadiens fans live in a bubble where we constantly overvalue everything and expect things to go our way. We never seem to learn the lesson that our garbage isn't as awesome as we think it is.

 

[Belial]

Thems a lot of pretty words, but the idea that "Most teams don’t even have to tank to win" isn't supported by data. Sadly, while everyone's allowed to have an opinion, opinions can be wrong. The data shows that teams that have rebuilt with talent are more likely to win cups and have long strings of success than complete randos.

As for our prospects, my opinion is that they're mid AF. Lots of potential NHLers. Zero elite talent. Canadiens fans live in a bubble where we constantly overvalue everything and expect things to go our way. We never seem to learn the lesson that our garbage isn't as awesome as we think it is.

You keep coming again and again with this not enough talent thing but what should Hughes do right now in your opinion?

 

[Twisted Sinister]

You keep coming again and again with this not enough talent thing but what should Hughes do right now in your opinion?

Build a flux capacitor, travel back in time, and draft Michkov.