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The NHL's CTE/Suicide problem

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RIP Simon .. a truly great guy with a massive heart for his team-mates .. you guys should read Scattered Scars by a guy, like some of us, who played but never quite made da show .. and Davis played when things were much much better in da O/A then when I played .. a great insight into why big guys both luv and hate da game at same time .. da game is in much better spot today then it ever has been from a violence standpoint .. and da kids today really don't want to be bangers anymore .. we are at an inflection point for sure
 
JT AM da real deal said:
RIP Simon .. a truly great guy with a massive heart for his team-mates .. you guys should read Scattered Scars by a guy, like some of us, who played but never quite made da show .. and Davis played when things were much much better in da O/A then when I played .. a great insight into why big guys both luv and hate da game at same time .. da game is in much better spot today then it ever has been from a violence standpoint .. and da kids today really don't want to be bangers anymore .. we are at an inflection point for sure
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and when all of us last generation bangers kick da bucket then things will change in playoffs too .. as da old guard won't be able to let everything go in playoffs
 
Fogelhund said:
At some point, the NHL is going to be held liable for the many cases of CTE, ex hockey players, and especially ex enforcers end up with, that unfortunately have resulted in many suicides. We all enjoy a good tilt, but the question at some point in time, is going to be at what cost? Chris Simon took his life yesterday, after long struggles related to CTE, Depression, anxiety, and more.

www.espn.com

Former NHL winger Chris Simon dies at age 52

Former NHL winger Chris Simon died by suicide at the age of 52. His family released a statement saying they strongly believed that Simon struggled "immensely from CTE."
www.espn.com www.espn.com

Probert, Boogard, Belak, Rypien, Montador, Ewen, Greg Johnson all guys who were enforcers, or fought a lot... all dead by suicide.



jamanetwork.com

Fighting and Penalty Minutes Associated With Long-term Mortality Among NHL Players

This matched cohort study examines the mortality rates and causes of death among National Hockey League enforcers compared with matched controls from 1967 to 2022.
jamanetwork.com jamanetwork.com

It should be clear, that at some point, the NHL is going to be held responsible for this, and that part of the game will need to be limited. In addition, the NHL is going to need to take head shots as a whole more seriously, as it's probable that there will be correlations drawn there too.
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Just want to note that Probert did not die by suicide. He had a massive heart attack boating on Lake St. Clair just offshore from his house. But yes, he had evidence of CTE.
 
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Fogelhund said:
At some point, the NHL is going to be held liable for the many cases of CTE, ex hockey players, and especially ex enforcers end up with, that unfortunately have resulted in many suicides. We all enjoy a good tilt, but the question at some point in time, is going to be at what cost? Chris Simon took his life yesterday, after long struggles related to CTE, Depression, anxiety, and more.

www.espn.com

Former NHL winger Chris Simon dies at age 52

Former NHL winger Chris Simon died by suicide at the age of 52. His family released a statement saying they strongly believed that Simon struggled "immensely from CTE."
www.espn.com www.espn.com

Probert, Boogard, Belak, Rypien, Montador, Ewen, Greg Johnson all guys who were enforcers, or fought a lot... all dead by suicide.



jamanetwork.com

Fighting and Penalty Minutes Associated With Long-term Mortality Among NHL Players

This matched cohort study examines the mortality rates and causes of death among National Hockey League enforcers compared with matched controls from 1967 to 2022.
jamanetwork.com jamanetwork.com

It should be clear, that at some point, the NHL is going to be held responsible for this, and that part of the game will need to be limited. In addition, the NHL is going to need to take head shots as a whole more seriously, as it's probable that there will be correlations drawn there too.
Click to expand...

Matthew Rempe ... encouraged by the lack of discipline by the NHL until it was so blatant they had to suspend him.

www.sportsnet.ca

The Misadventures of Matt Rempe: A timeline of the rookie’s wild year

As Matt Rempe mania grounds to a halt with the news of his four-game suspension, Sonny Sachdeva takes a look at the timeline of the rookie’s chaotic NHL run.
www.sportsnet.ca www.sportsnet.ca
 
For anyone on the struggle bus, don't forget options are available.

This website helps you find resources in your area.


COAST HAMILTON is popular in the Hammer. You call and they show up ! Its for "I need help now situations"

A great book for those looking to optimize brain function is Change your Diet, Change your Mind. (the audiobook is amazing, her youtube videos are also quite good) the tl;dr is that low carb and ketogenic diets have been shown to be effective for difficult to treat mental health problems like bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. It can also help in other "less serious" mental health conditions like depression, OCD, etc.

Pioneers in the field like this clinic ...

Code: 
 https://med.stanford.edu/psychiatry/patient_care/metabolic.html


are getting funding from the family that created Roblox because their kid saw 14 psychiatrists and didn't get better until he went keto (story well documented on YouTube). Don't attempt a major dietary change on your own, speak to your healthcare providers about if you are considering it. They probably wont help, but they should know about it.

If the topic interests you but you are somehow lost in finding more about it and how it may apply to you / friends / family ... then PM me and I can provide you with links. The psychiatrist that wrote the book is quite open how it helped her mental health struggles. My day job requires me to be up on this space and her book / audiobook is a true home run.
 
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Darcy Tucker said:
How do you police the head trauma caused by dirty hits if you ban fighting from the game and heavily penalize the fighters sticking up for their hurt team mates? Makes no sense you need it in the game as a deterrent.

RIP to Simon he was one of the greats.
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Headshots were a lot worse when fighting/enforcers were rampant in the 80s and 90s.

Suspensions aren't perfect, but they're more effective than enforcers. There's no modern Scott Stevens in the NHL these days throwing out massive headshots on a regular basis, despite the lack of enforcers.

Shannahan actually did a really good job when he was head of the DoPS. He gave out some legit long suspensions, and Matt Cooke for example finally changed his game after getting a big suspension. If the NHL bans fighting, but starts regularly giving out ~8-10+ game suspensions for headshots instead of ~1-5 game suspensions, it will largely disappear IMO.
 
Leaf Rocket said:
UFC has been sued as well due to unfair wages.
NFL has been sued by their players in the past.
WWE has been sued by their wrestlers.

Cigarettes were at one point a part of society and lauded, now? Not so much now. Fighting is slowly moving away from NHL, so it is time to evolve or more lives will be lost.
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Or here's a better solution:

Give all NHLers cigarettes to smoke. It sounds like a more harmless activity no?

_________

Sorry. Just a little poke. No harm was intended.

I don't think there's a lot of debate going on in this thread. Just a gathering of like-minded hockey fans who think that removing fighting will make hockey a lot safer.

The issue is complex, but i just want to say this:

Chris Simon had a choice. Chris Simon made choices. Chris Simon knew the risks. No coach or GM told Chris Simon that he has no place on a team unless he fights.
 
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Ianturnedbull said:
Or here's a better solution:

Give all NHLers cigarettes to smoke. It sounds like a more harmless activity no?

_________

Sorry. Just a little poke. No harm was intended.

I don't think there's a lot of debate going on in this thread. Just a gathering of like-minded hockey fans who think that removing fighting will make hockey a lot safer.

The issue is complex, but i just want to say this:

Chris Simon had a choice. Chris Simon made choices. Chris Simon knew the risks. No coach or GM told Chris Simon that he has no place on a team unless he fights.
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I completely agree with your post except for the bolded part. I bet there were certainly coaches and/or GMs who said as such to him.
 
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JT AM da real deal said:
RIP Simon .. a truly great guy with a massive heart for his team-mates .. you guys should read Scattered Scars by a guy, like some of us, who played but never quite made da show .. and Davis played when things were much much better in da O/A then when I played .. a great insight into why big guys both luv and hate da game at same time .. da game is in much better spot today then it ever has been from a violence standpoint .. and da kids today really don't want to be bangers anymore .. we are at an inflection point for sure
Click to expand...
Thanks for posting about this book. I will have to track it down. I do love reading about the behinds scenes stuff, especially the journey that players go through. I should note that I had trouble finding the book rec, the correct title is Conflicted Scars.
 
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Ianturnedbull said:
Based on what?
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Hockey culture? A big, intimidating guy like him with marginal skill was best utilized as an enforcer. His role was likely defined early on, and it's no coincidence that he racked up the PIMs and fights over the course of his career that he did.

No different than players being told their offensive skills in the lower leagues will not translate well to the NHL, and they'll have to adjust their roles accordingly (ie. 3rd line checking, two way centre).
 
TheTotalPackage said:
Hockey culture? A big, intimidating guy like him with marginal skill was best utilized as an enforcer. His role was likely defined early on, and it's no coincidence that he racked up the PIMs and fights over the course of his career that he did.

No different than players being told their offensive skills in the lower leagues will not translate well to the NHL, and they'll have to adjust their roles accordingly (ie. 3rd line checking, two way centre).
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This doesn't prove anything.

No one describes Chris Simon as having "marginal skill".
 
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I think what you’ll likely see NHL do first, before making fighting illegal, is try to further curb fighting and eliminate the dedicated fighter role by introducing sanctions for players who exceed a certain number of fights. Like 5 or hopefully even as low as 3 in a season.

I do believe this to be a half measure but would be at least a step in the right direction
 
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Sypher04 said:
I think what you’ll likely see NHL do first, before making fighting illegal, is try to further curb fighting and eliminate the dedicated fighter role by introducing sanctions for players who exceed a certain number of fights. Like 5 or hopefully even as low as 3 in a season.

I do believe this to be a half measure but would be at least a step in the right direction
Click to expand...

I think more in-game punishment could deter it as well.

I.e rather than 5 minutes, if a player fights in the first two periods he’s tossed for the rest of the game. If it’s in the third, he’s suspended for the next.

Going down a player on the bench in a game might be a deterrent for a coach managing his bench.

Fighting is so entrenched in hockey it’s a hard thing to completely remove.
 
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how do you deal with marchand head hunting knies by accident ON PURPOSE ?

shouldn't marchand face reaves for being a moron ?

isnt having to fight reeves a deterrent ?
 
Back in the early 80's (middle school) all the male students had to take Industrial Arts. It was combo of wood shop, drafting, and welding. In this class I got a taste of the pure force that a drill press/table saw/wood lathe has. After a few near misses I had a healthy fear of using these things. The fact that I could lose a finger, etc. in an accident was enough to tell me that I need to stay away from this stuff.

I made a choice. In fact to this day I keep making choices. I do use power tools on occasion, but you'll never catch me using a chainsaw. Why do i do this? Because i value my safety. No one is telling me I have to use a chainsaw. My life and livelihood doesn't depend on it. Other people don't have skills in different facets of life, but I do. Some people have to work in riskier fields. The more risk, the more money they make. No one is forcing them to choose a dangerous line of work. This is their decision.

This goes for pro sports in general. There are huge risks involved. You may never get to do physical things with your children if you decide to become an Olympian or a Pro Athlete. The body (no matter what the sport) won't allow you to be at a high level unless you push it to the furthest reaches.

Everyone makes choices.

Some people are introducing rules. I think that is silly. If you make rules that consider everyone's safety then you won't even recognize it as hockey anymore. No skating fast, no touching the puck mover in anyway, no slap shots, the puck isn't allowed to lift in the air, no more sharp skates, no more hard plastic equipment, soften the puck, foam sticks only, no lifting of sticks, no goalies, etc.

The good news is fans have choices too. Do you enjoy MMA? Some can't stomach it. That's fine. Don't watch it. What about professional wrestling? All fake right? There are so many reasons not to watch it and not to support it.

It's tragic about Chris Simon. I feel bad for his family, etc. But no one will convince me that he never had a choice. He did, and he chose a risky job and a risky role within that.
 
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TheTotalPackage said:
Hockey culture? A big, intimidating guy like him with marginal skill was best utilized as an enforcer. His role was likely defined early on, and it's no coincidence that he racked up the PIMs and fights over the course of his career that he did.

No different than players being told their offensive skills in the lower leagues will not translate well to the NHL, and they'll have to adjust their roles accordingly (ie. 3rd line checking, two way centre).
Click to expand...
Marginally skilled players don't lead their team in goals. Not that that defined Simon, but anyone who watched him, didn't regard him as a player with marginal skill. From my memory, he was a character guy who was genuinely loved.

The season in reference is the '99-00 season. That Capitals team had Oates, Gonchar, Zednik and Bondra. An outlier all the same, you're not marginally skilled if you've managed to lead that team in goals in the regular season and tie in the post.

He scored a 144 goals and a little over 300 points in fits and starts over 16 NHL seasons. So whether injury or deployment, Simon might have been closer to a 200-250 goal guy and 400 points, but an enforcer all the same. The inference being, while not prolific, value over 16 seasons implies he wasn't a perimeter piece.

Take a look at QuantHockey and have a look at the names Simon outscored. If you have a working knowledge of hockey history, you'll be surprised who scored less, what they were advertised as (i.e. Skilled player) and what the final tally was.

If you look at his junior career, you'll see a correspondence in development, all the way to that 99-00 season.

I think like a lot of enforcers, plugged into that role because on top of their SKILL, they also happen to be monsters, there was more there, but for stereotypes and short-sightedness, never properly provided for.

If you need informational support understanding the context of the players he outscored, feel free to drop me a PM and I'll provide historical context.
 
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I won't comment about what's happened in the past.

But in the present I feel terrible for Simon's family. And I do believe and hope that in the near future the NHL moves on from fighting. I've said many times that it still has a place in the game. But I am changing my tune.
 
we get very concerned about professionals, going in with eyes wide open, and their safety.

and yet, very little concern about humans in much worse working conditions, for much less money.

but you don't get the same warm feelies when you point that out. better to talk about those making millions for an exposure they entered eyes wide open.
 
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Darcy Tucker said:
How do you police the head trauma caused by dirty hits if you ban fighting from the game and heavily penalize the fighters sticking up for their hurt team mates? Makes no sense you need it in the game as a deterrent.

RIP to Simon he was one of the greats.
Click to expand...
Hire competent DOPs personnel who can deliver proper punishment. Wonder if his 4 game suspension will make Rempe think twice before delivering another head shot.
 
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