The Loss of Broberg and Holloway Gripe Thread

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And how many goals did those three have last year here at game 25?

Was there a no scoring ordinance in effect?
How many do the replacement forwards have by game 25? Ohhhhhh. A mere 9.

Look, its easy. The 3 forwards we lost outscored the 3 forwards added in 23-24 season and are this season. If you want to have some other speicious yard stick feel free. In the meanwhile 3 ex Oilers forwards are thumping the new additions 21-9. Already insurmountable lead.
 
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How many do the replacement forwards have by game 25? Ohhhhhh. A mere 9.

Look, its easy. The 3 forwards we lost outscored the 3 forwards added in 23-24 season and are this season. If you want to have some other speicious yard stick feel free. In the meanwhile 3 ex Oilers forwards are thumping the new additions 21-9. Already insurmountable lead.

Do you want to answer the question of how many goals they had playing for the Oilers at this time last year in 25 games?

Take a wild guess (and this is with some of them getting time with Draisaitl here too).
 
Do you want to answer the question of how many goals they had playing for the Oilers at this time last year in 25 games?

Take a wild guess (and this is with some of them getting time with Draisaitl here too).
Specious sample is immaterial and means nothing. You're ignoring that the 3 deposed forwards have outscored the incoming across consecutive seasons while saying "but what about this cherry picked selective 25 game sample. As if you think one means more than the larger sample..
 
Specious sample is immaterial and means nothing. You're ignoring that the 3 deposed forwards have outscored the incoming across consecutive seasons while saying "but what about this cherry picked selective 25 game sample. As if you think one means more than the larger sample..

Well since you didn't answer the question I'll answer it for anyone interested ... Foegele/Holloway/McLeod had 9 goals total after 25 games last year on this team (which is basically all that matters). And that wasn't an outlier for them either, that's basically their standard type of production while playing here.

If we're looking at "larger sample" sizes, Skinner has six 30+ goal seasons in this league. Six.

He's by far the most proven actual goal scorer of any of these guys and it's not even close.
 
Foegele's size and speed was always enticing to me. Even his flashes of skill (when his yips don't f*** it up at the last moment). Heck it still is, he just screams potential and lighting it up if it all comes together.

BUT, he chokes when it matters most. Either he's a complete non-factor like the first 2 playoffs, or he's actively hurting us with brain farts in the most recent playoffs. He's got the YIPS. It shows in his stick handles and it shows when the games get important.

Dude could go 30-30 in LA and I'd still be completely fine moving on. He had his chance to show something when it mattered and he couldn't. It was time to move on. (Also his pretty sure his GF hated Edmonton, good riddance).
 
You can even look at multiple years

Foegele (4)/McLeod (2)/Holloway (3) 23-24 (First 25 Games): 9 goals combined
Foegele (4) /McLeod (3) /Holloway (1) 22-23 (First 25 Games): 8 goals combined
Foegele (2)/McLeod (4) (Holloway not on team) 21-22 (First 25 Games): 6 goals combined

These guys when they were here didn't do a ton to help the Oilers to start seasons.

The fact is lots of players come here and struggle to provide support scoring, almost no one consistently scores unless they are given heavy minutes with Connor McDavid.

If they find a niche elsewhere playing under less pressure, fine good for them. Taylor Hall won a Hart trophy (over Connor McDavid) once upon a time too after leaving here, he never replicated that one outlier season ever again.

In 21-22, Puljujarvi also had 8 goals in his first 25 games of the year. Looked like he was "breaking out". Yamamoto had 5. Jesse never replicated that again.
 
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Well since you didn't answer the question I'll answer it for anyone interested ... Foegele/Holloway/McLeod had 9 goals total after 25 games last year on this team (which is basically all that matters). And that wasn't an outlier for them either, that's basically their standard type of production while playing here.

If we're looking at "larger sample" sizes, Skinner has six 30+ goal seasons in this league. Six.

He's by far the most proven actual goal scorer of any of these guys and it's not even close.
So hows that working out for us? These are PAST goals. Its not always indicative of what will come. It was predictable (I did) that Skinner and Arvid were going to have trouble scoring here. It was going to be harder to get the same chances to go, and to get those same chances as often.

You don't know nada about Skinners ability to persevere through hard checking because it was rarely what he was about. The difference between level of opposition performance a contender faces, an what Buffalo faces is immense. Skinner doesn't even know how to play on a contending team. Maybe he'll learn.
 
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Foegele's size and speed was always enticing to me. Even his flashes of skill (when his yips don't f*** it up at the last moment). Heck it still is, he just screams potential and lighting it up if it all comes together.

BUT, he chokes when it matters most. Either he's a complete non-factor like the first 2 playoffs, or he's actively hurting us with brain farts in the most recent playoffs. He's got the YIPS. It shows in his stick handles and it shows when the games get important.

Dude could go 30-30 in LA and I'd still be completely fine moving on. He had his chance to show something when it mattered and he couldn't. It was time to move on. (Also his pretty sure his GF hated Edmonton, good riddance).
I see a lot of the same in the player. The yips were frustrating. But in some cases what a player needs is a bigger role. Foegele was even saying so. A guy like Nik had trouble doing anything. Suddenly he's a big part of a club and a torrent of goals. Same thing with Hyman really. Not making comparisons. Maybe theres hope for Skinner but he has to want to do everything to be on that ride. Playing a good game followed by half a dozen invisible performance won't get it done. Guy has to show it every game for weeks.

Finally sometimes too much navel gazing can go on regarding who did what in which game. One game instances don't define players and they shouldn't. People are human in such instances and any players can look either good or bad in some playoff instances. Scoring goals, even if you're Drai or Mackinnon, it isn't something you just press a button. The best scorers in games come up with yips. Mackinnon went 10 games without scoring a goal. Drai has had spells too. For tweener scorers like Foegele it can feel often like you won't score ever again. Then you score, and you sometimes score two a game because on again, then off... MacTavish as a player described this better than anybody. Foegele in LA is being MacT, fwiw. Difference being MacT was surrounded by a great team, Foegele isn't.
 
Over how many different eras of management? The only thing that really makes sense to figure out now, is what Holland did or didn’t do, and Bowman. You can keep going back for the gripe factor, but I don’t see the sense in it. We all know we sucked during the DOD and blah blah blah.

I think Holland was a mixed bag, but I can’t argue with the results, it got us to a game 7 cup finals. From there, let’s look at what Bowman’s doing.
There's been an ongoing theme with the Oilers hiring GMs that left their previous teams in disarray. While the Bruins have remained a respectable team after Chiarelli's departure they still haven't reached the summit despite coming oh so close. And they did have to shed a few players due to his mismanagement. The Bruins have kind of an OBC of their own but obviously Chiarelli's tenure was basically a disaster here.

In comes Ken Holland, who left Detroit completely barren of prospects due to a combination of selling off everything to keep the wagon going and just piss poor drafting when the team couldn't make the playoffs anymore. Seriously, go look at their picks during the 2010s. Oh and they also had a few really bad contracts that Holland signed. Obviously every GM has those especially those desperate to keep a playoff window open but regardless... I will certainly give him credit for a few things. Hyman (prior to this year) has been excellent and Mattias Ekholm is probably the best trade the team has done in a generation. Kane was a solid pickup (even if I'm not in love with his extension). But then come the blunders. The big ones are the Campbell and Nurse contracts which have hamstrung the Oilers not only due to the cap hits but forcing Skinner to take the starting goalie role before he was supposed to. But there were also smaller yet still impactful ones. The Lucic/Neal on the day it was announced was a win for the team but in the end it's at best a wash if not a loss because we're still paying for Neal's buyout this year while the Flames aren't paying Lucic anymore. Campbells and Neal's buyouts take up just over 3m in cap space that we certainly could've used during this offseason. Zack Kassian was a good story while he was here and I didn't mind keeping him around as he seemed to be a decent fit with McDavid. The problem was that Kassian would disappear for long stretches of time and when his extension was signed (Jan 29, 2020) he was in the middle of a scoring drought (I'm pretty sure he was moved off McDavid's line around this time) that he would never truly recover from. Whether it was off ice issues or what have you... It was a mistake to sign what was essentially a depth player to a lengthy deal and the rest is history. Trading Kesselring to Arizona for Bjugstad is definitely biting us in the butt. Sending a couple of seconds to Detroit for AA was also stupid.

But Holland's biggest failings come at the draft table. He deserves credit for turning Reid Schafer into Mattias Ekholm, especially since Schafer's numbers aren't exactly sparkling. Time will tell how much Broberg and Holloway blossom, but obviously they aren't doing it here because of mismanagement from both Holland and Bowman. Apart from those two players though.... Nothing. Bourgault was traded for.. well, not much. Lavoie was lost to waivers. Akey might prove to be something but not anytime soon. And the rest are just the usual crop of Oiler picks that will never amount to anything. 4 years and not a single pick playing for the team, and only 2 that are actual NHL regulars. Oilers drafting has been really bad for a long time and it might have actually gotten worse under Holland.

Finally, in comes Bowman. He did win Cups with the Hawks but was also forced to continually sell off pieces due to cap mismanagement. They fell off a cliff after 2017 save for one series that I won't get into, and have been basically a bottom feeder ever since. This is again due to asset mismanagement and poor drafting, although at least his track record there is better than Ken Holland's. But prime examples include the infamous Seth Jones trade and signing (and Holland helped it happen), the Saad trade, and the Panarin trade. Obviously it's too early to judge his tenure here but his track record isn't exactly the greatest, especially since he's been out of the game for a few years.

While this is just speculation on my part, there does seem to be a pattern of hiring Hockey Canada buddies. Nepotism is nothing new to the Oilers organization, of course. We all know about the OBC days, but I feel like we've swapped one OBC for another. I'm pretty sure that bastard Bob Nicholson is still with the Oilers somewhere.

Oh, and one thing about the Ken Holland hiring that should really irritate Oiler fans is that they were actually looking at Bill Zito (he of the team that just beat the Oilers in the Finals) before pivoting to Ken Holland. Just maddening stuff. I truly hope that Bowman is something special even putting certain things aside, but the early returns haven't really inspired much.
 
Foegele's size and speed was always enticing to me. Even his flashes of skill (when his yips don't f*** it up at the last moment). Heck it still is, he just screams potential and lighting it up if it all comes together.

BUT, he chokes when it matters most. Either he's a complete non-factor like the first 2 playoffs, or he's actively hurting us with brain farts in the most recent playoffs. He's got the YIPS. It shows in his stick handles and it shows when the games get important.

Dude could go 30-30 in LA and I'd still be completely fine moving on. He had his chance to show something when it mattered and he couldn't. It was time to move on. (Also his pretty sure his GF hated Edmonton, good riddance).

If Foegele simply had better hands and a shot that wasn't wildly inaccurate I think he'd be a lock for 30-35 goals annually in a power forward scoring role. He doesn't though, and is severely limited by it.
 
Foegele's size and speed was always enticing to me. Even his flashes of skill (when his yips don't f*** it up at the last moment). Heck it still is, he just screams potential and lighting it up if it all comes together.

BUT, he chokes when it matters most. Either he's a complete non-factor like the first 2 playoffs, or he's actively hurting us with brain farts in the most recent playoffs. He's got the YIPS. It shows in his stick handles and it shows when the games get important.

Dude could go 30-30 in LA and I'd still be completely fine moving on. He had his chance to show something when it mattered and he couldn't. It was time to move on. (Also his pretty sure his GF hated Edmonton, good riddance).
This right here is the problem. Because a player isn't *perfect*, we have to move on from him. If Foegele was a 30-30 power forward, he'd be getting 8 million, not 3 mill. All in all, he's a great middle 6 player. Same with Holloway, same with Mcleod. We did the same thing with Eberle, Petry- because they were not the EXACT players we wanted, we moved on- and got worse. This organization never learns. Aside from 97 and 29, every player will have flaws. You build the team to complement those strengths, same way we got Ekholm to help with Bouchard's erratic defensive play. All in all, we've replaced these players with older, slower, and worse players.
 
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This should be pinned as a reference for anyone that thinks we should randomly call guys like Savoie up for "a look." The Holloway cycle starts with him the moment he's prematurely called up. He then either scores nothing and goes back down, or worse gets drug around the lineup for weeks/months with sub-10 minute deployment.

I despise the up and down cycle that Holloway and Broberg were on, which was why we ultimately lost them. They weren't ready for meaningful NHL action until the very end. Had they just stayed primarily in the A until mid-last year we probably still have them both on good deals and they would probably be fine with it.

Instead we decided to keep a player we expected to be a top 6 winger on the 4th line scoring a a clip of basically zero for 20-30 game chunks before getting hurt/going back down, and then decided to deploy the other for 7 mins a night on his off side as the 7th d man. Just stupid.
 
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The practical reality is when you send a player to the minors for the third or fourth time in three years, they're not in the frame of mind to sign an extension at that point We didn't have a player development department, per se back then. There wasn't a plan - JJ

We really have to buckle down from this point forward and make sure that players are developing and entering the team at the right time, they know where they fit, they know what their development plan is - JJ

Sounds like the sins of an incompetent Holland and Wright.
 
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Imagine this team with a good GM at the helm instead of the chia/Holland years. Multiple cups not that hard to imagine.

Too early to judge Stan right now, but just that the oilers hired him after all the blackhawks shit doesn’t give good omens.
 
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This right here is the problem. Because a player isn't *perfect*, we have to move on from him. If Foegele was a 30-30 power forward, he'd be getting 8 million, not 3 mill. All in all, he's a great middle 6 player. Same with Holloway, same with Mcleod. We did the same thing with Eberle, Petry- because they were not the EXACT players we wanted, we moved on- and got worse. This organization never learns. Aside from 97 and 29, every player will have flaws. You build the team to complement those strengths, same way we got Ekholm to help with Bouchard's erratic defensive play. All in all, we've replaced these players with older, slower, and worse players.
I'm fine with mid players in mid roles. They don't all have to be McDrai. But when you are looking at a $3.5M Foegele who brought f*** all in the playoffs versus guys like $1M Janny/Brown who were able to make impacts in the playoffs. It's time to move on.

It's not the same as Mcleod, cause he was still signed for $2M which is about right/cheap as a 3C. No the same as Holloway either who made impacts in the playoffs and should have been retained for cheap but we got screwed/screwed up the offersheet situation.
 
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I see a lot of the same in the player. The yips were frustrating. But in some cases what a player needs is a bigger role. Foegele was even saying so. A guy like Nik had trouble doing anything. Suddenly he's a big part of a club and a torrent of goals. Same thing with Hyman really. Not making comparisons. Maybe theres hope for Skinner but he has to want to do everything to be on that ride. Playing a good game followed by half a dozen invisible performance won't get it done. Guy has to show it every game for weeks.

Finally sometimes too much navel gazing can go on regarding who did what in which game. One game instances don't define players and they shouldn't. People are human in such instances and any players can look either good or bad in some playoff instances. Scoring goals, even if you're Drai or Mackinnon, it isn't something you just press a button. The best scorers in games come up with yips. Mackinnon went 10 games without scoring a goal. Drai has had spells too. For tweener scorers like Foegele it can feel often like you won't score ever again. Then you score, and you sometimes score two a game because on again, then off... MacTavish as a player described this better than anybody. Foegele in LA is being MacT, fwiw. Difference being MacT was surrounded by a great team, Foegele isn't.
We should remember that he did get some chances. It wasn’t completely no chances here. He had times with Drai and he had times with McD. Some sparse success and then it dried up and he was demoted again.

I'm not navel gazing on one game though. I gave Foegele chances after his 1st and 2nd playoff run. Was hopeful even going into the 3rd playoff run. We've run players out of town for 1 play off run before, see Eberle. But with Foegele he had ample oppurtunity to show he didnt have it in the playoffs. If it was just one playoffs, I wouldn't close the book on him. But we saw 3 years of the same underperformance when it mattered most.
 
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We should remember that he did get some chances. It was completely no chances here. He had times with Drai and he had times with McD. Some sparse success and then it dried up and he was demoted again.

I'm not navel gazing on one game though. I gave Foegele chances after his 1st and 2nd playoff run. Was hopeful even going into the 3rd playoff run. We've run players out of town for 1 play off run before, see Eberle. But with Foegele he had ample oppurtunity to show he didnt have it in the playoffs. If it was just one playoffs, I wouldn't close the book on him. But we saw 3 years of the same underperformance when it mattered most.
Yeah. Foegele so very much an enigma as a player. On some plays gives you impression he has immense skills and really the player has all kinds of fundamentals down pat and can make smart plays, takeaways etc. But can blunder badly as well. Seemed like when he made mistakes here it was due to overpursuing, trying to hard on a forecheck, hauling a guy down etc.

His play aside though I always also had the impression that he didn't have the ideal linemates here. Foegele is well suited to a topnine config playing with other big boys or players with pace. He's useful in that his skillsets he can play up and down lineup at times. In LA he's found some more players that mesh better. So that he looks good with Byfield, or others. Thing is his game is slowly coming together and last season was his best until this one. Not a bad player at all.
 
Imagine this team with a good GM at the helm instead of the chia/Holland years. Multiple cups not that hard to imagine.

Too early to judge Stan right now, but just that the oilers hired him after all the blackhawks shit doesn’t give good omens.
I honestly don't even think we need a good GM, we just need one that doesn't make colossal mistakes like Griffin Reinhart or Jack Campbell or... this whole mess.
 

Imagine this team with a good GM at the helm instead of the chia/Holland years. Multiple cups not that hard to imagine.

Too early to judge Stan right now, but just that the oilers hired him after all the blackhawks shit doesn’t give good omens.

This reeks of new management desperately trying to blame previous for things that happened on their watch.

Hindsight is 20/20 at this moment they f***ed up bad.

Bowman is another extremely poor cap manager and between him and JJ signings they left no money to retain either.

I shouldn't be surprised but I am. It's math, they didn't have the money to sign either. That's on them and no one else.

Removing Hindsight they should have been able to at least sign Holloway over who they picked up. And after broberg amazing playoffs obviously more cap space should have been available for him than they had. I don't think it's fair to say 4+ mill but obviously more than what they had.

Bowman is a crap hire and it took even less time than I thought to prove it.
 
How many do the replacement forwards have by game 25? Ohhhhhh. A mere 9.

Look, its easy. The 3 forwards we lost outscored the 3 forwards added in 23-24 season and are this season. If you want to have some other speicious yard stick feel free. In the meanwhile 3 ex Oilers forwards are thumping the new additions 21-9. Already insurmountable lead.
It does looks absolutely damning for McDavid and Draisaitl. Players like McLeod, Foegele, Holloway get away from them and become better contributors, and meanwhile we’ve brought in perennial 20-30 goals scorers who can’t seem to mesh with these guys either. Going on a decade with those two unable to sustain consistent linemates and they’ve had a variety of different types of wingers including proven top 6ers and yet nobody ever sticks, all they can do is take 50-60 pt players like RNH and Hyman and turn them into 70-80 pt players pumping their point totals on the power play.

When you’re paying two guys 21M combined, soon to be 28M combined, I think it’s fair to expect these guys to be able to adjust their games to elevate players around them beyond pumping guys points on the PP but with 97/29 it’s always the same story, keep up or get off our lines, but there are a very small number of players who can do that so it always ends up in the same place, those two playing together because nobody else can play with them.
 
Just posting my daily gripe. I could care less about Broberg and I wish nothing but the worst for the kid.

Hollywood though. I will have regrets that last as long as trading those picks for Griffin Reinhart. Even more maybe.
 
Sucks they gone. Hope they get the ever loving shit booed out of them on Saturday. f*** them kids.
 

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