TV: The Last of Us (HBO)

[HanSolo]

They survived until now so obviously she (they) used their brains before this moment in time.

It is also hard to believe that people survived under her leadership if she was so flakey. Just because other poor writers used a bad character template to promote action/conflict, it doesn't give future writers immunity from criticism.

When did I say anyone was immune from criticism? I'm disagreeing with someone's criticism. Not trying to bar people from critiquing.

And to your first point, that's again assuming that circumstances are always the same and dictate rational decision making at all times. We don't know how they took over the KC QZ and we don't know how long ago they did so. Presumably it was by force. But FEDRA was equipped to and made it priority 1 to sustain life in the QZ against threats and infection. These people are presumably rebels who weren't in charge of any of that. Whatever is below that rubble, I truly have no idea and I'm not going to try to find out. But whatever it is I think it's entirely possible that they successfully dealt with something similar once and Kathleen figured she had time to put it off for at least little while and it could turn out that she was more than capable of organizing a successful uprising but could be in over her head when it comes to keeping people safe.

But honestly, that was something I was thinking about with the Boston QZ Fireflies. Sure, FEDRA was depriving people of freedoms and making life hell but they were also keeping people safe and alive. If the Boston Fireflys succeeded, would they have the wherewithal to maintain safety, order, and protect the QZ inhabitants while keeping infection out? How much freedom can you reasonably give someone to come and go without expounding the risk of spreading infection? And would the Fireflys even be competent leaders? (I think it's honestly a compelling narrative consideration with this group. How much better or worse would they fare without FEDRA)

That's the thing with my Tyrion comparison. You know Tyrion is a consistently capable and intelligent character so it's jarring when the writing dumbs him down. We don't know much about this Kansas City group or Kathleen. I'm not saying that come the end of episode 5 or whenever her story is done that her irrational decision making won't amount to anything more than contrivance to move the plot along but her dismissing the threat under the rubble, to me, doesn't really damage the quality of the episode for me in any way. If the plot threads go nowhere satisfying or intelligent in Episode 5, yeah I'd be willing to call that a sign of cheap writing. But for now, I don't see that as a concern. And the reason I'm saying so much about that is because too often people watch movies or shows and their complaints are that a character didn't take the most logical or reasonable course of action and that's just, in reality, not a reasonable thing to expect from people. That they always make the right, smart, and/or prudent choices. Especially when there's credible reasons for why a person might make an errant decision or take irrational action.

 

[JoVel]

Oh I'm an idiot, I didn't realize the bearded member of the crew was Jeffrey Pierce (aka Tommy in the game) until I read it after watching the episode. Not sure how I could miss it when his voice is the exact same as well.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

When did I say anyone was immune from criticism? I'm disagreeing with someone's criticism. Not trying to bar people from critiquing.

And to your first point, that's again assuming that circumstances are always the same and dictate rational decision making at all times. We don't know how they took over the KC QZ and we don't know how long ago they did so. Presumably it was by force. But FEDRA was equipped to and made it priority 1 to sustain life in the QZ against threats and infection. These people are presumably rebels who weren't in charge of any of that. Whatever is below that rubble, I truly have no idea and I'm not going to try to find out. But whatever it is I think it's entirely possible that they successfully dealt with something similar once and Kathleen figured she had time to put it off for at least little while and it could turn out that she was more than capable of organizing a successful uprising but could be in over her head when it comes to keeping people safe.

But honestly, that was something I was thinking about with the Boston QZ Fireflies. Sure, FEDRA was depriving people of freedoms and making life hell but they were also keeping people safe and alive. If the Boston Fireflys succeeded, would they have the wherewithal to maintain safety, order, and protect the QZ inhabitants while keeping infection out? How much freedom can you reasonably give someone to come and go without expounding the risk of spreading infection? And would the Fireflys even be competent leaders? (I think it's honestly a compelling narrative consideration with this group. How much better or worse would they fare without FEDRA)

That's the thing with my Tyrion comparison. You know Tyrion is a consistently capable and intelligent character so it's jarring when the writing dumbs him down. We don't know much about this Kansas City group or Kathleen. I'm not saying that come the end of episode 5 or whenever her story is done that her irrational decision making won't amount to anything more than contrivance to move the plot along but her dismissing the threat under the rubble, to me, doesn't really damage the quality of the episode for me in any way. If the plot threads go nowhere satisfying or intelligent in Episode 5, yeah I'd be willing to call that a sign of cheap writing. But for now, I don't see that as a concern. And the reason I'm saying so much about that is because too often people watch movies or shows and their complaints are that a character didn't take the most logical or reasonable course of action and that's just, in reality, not a reasonable thing to expect from people. That they always make the right, smart, and/or prudent choices. Especially when there's credible reasons for why a person might make an errant decision or take irrational action.

They were both terrified when it heaved the last time. Truly terrified. Then they slam the door and she goes, "Meh, no big deal. Time to chase the two who obviously had nothing to do with our people getting killed. We will ignore the fact our guys were trying to rob and kill the outsiders, who then abandoned their full truck."

That is a Tyrion character change in an instant.

It's a video game adaptation. Plot holes and questionable character development kind of goes with it I guess. The rest was interesting. Probably rate the show around a 7 so far. You?

 

[HanSolo]

They were both terrified when it heaved the last time. Truly terrified. Then they slam the door and she goes, "Meh, no big deal. Time to chase the two who obviously had nothing to do with our people getting killed. We will ignore the fact our guys were trying to rob and kill the outsiders, who then abandoned their full truck."

That is a Tyrion character change in an instant.

It's a video game adaptation. Plot holes and questionable character development kind of goes with it I guess. The rest was interesting. Probably rate the show around a 7 so far. You?

Why would that be obvious to her? When she heard what Joel and Ellie did, rather than consider that it could be a stranger, as suggested, her tinfoil hat slipped off and she started attributing it to outsiders Henry and his "collaborators" called in as backup and then got everyone riled up over that narrative. Which weighs pretty heavily in favor of paranoid and obsseively deranged the more we talk about it. And then the rob and kill outsiders thing? I mean are you, I'm not saying this to be rude, but are you paying attention? They lay foundation for this being a common survival tactic in this dystopia, one that the protagonist used in the past, in this same episode. Sure, that could make her think "huh could've just been our fault as the aggressors" but she jumped to what she's been obsessing over.

I mean, again, your presumption that she should've been smarter about the threat they discovered works on the assumption that just because she presumably led these people to a successful revolt against FEDRA, that she must be competent and/or be able prioritize the right things over her own needs and wants. But that's asking a bit much from someone who shot, if not the only doctor the group had, one of few. Which is an insanely poor decision to make in an apocalyptic situation like this. She did it, clearly, out of revenge for her brother. So we already have foundation that she puts her vendetta over the needs of her people and if there's something to criticize her and the episode about, to me it's that. If that guy is really the group's only doctor, she really f***ed her own people. But to me that doesn't make for a stupid story, to me it's the potential for an interesting pseudo villain figure. But that's my impression of the character as written. She's not shown to be driven by keeping people safe from Henry but to get payback for what happened to her brother.

As for how I'd rate the show so far, probably a solid 8.5/10 so far personally. Nothing that truly shines as uncommonly exceptional, best of all time television, but better than a lot of what's out there. Certainly peak when it comes to live action video game adaptation. I thought episode 1 was a solid 9, with a point knocked off for the post 2003 stuff being weaker. Episode 2 I guess a solid 8-8.5. Episode 3 I'd say a 9. And episode 4 I'd give a firm 8. The Joel-Ellie stuff was great. The backstory with the KC group was a tad can't think of a better word than 'pedestrian' for my tastes so far, but it's set-up for episode 5 so I'm not overly concerned until I see the payoff.

But I'm not sure exactly why my rating matters to what we're talking about here.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

Why would that be obvious to her? When she heard what Joel and Ellie did, rather than consider that it could be a stranger, as suggested, her tinfoil hat slipped off and she started attributing it to outsiders Henry and his "collaborators" called in as backup and then got everyone riled up over that narrative. Which weighs pretty heavily in favor of paranoid and obsseively deranged the more we talk about it. And then the rob and kill outsiders thing? I mean are you, I'm not saying this to be rude, but are you paying attention? They lay foundation for this being a common survival tactic in this dystopia, one that the protagonist used in the past, in this same episode. Sure, that could make her think "huh could've just been our fault as the aggressors" but she jumped to what she's been obsessing over.

I mean, again, your presumption that she should've been smarter about the threat they discovered works on the assumption that just because she presumably led these people to a successful revolt against FEDRA, that she must be competent and/or be able prioritize the right things over her own needs and wants. But that's asking a bit much from someone who shot, if not the only doctor the group had, one of few. Which is an insanely poor decision to make in an apocalyptic situation like this. She did it, clearly, out of revenge for her brother. So we already have foundation that she puts her vendetta over the needs of her people and if there's something to criticize her and the episode about, to me it's that. If that guy is really the group's only doctor, she really f***ed her own people. But to me that doesn't make for a stupid story, to me it's the potential for an interesting pseudo villain figure. But that's my impression of the character as written. She's not shown to be driven by keeping people safe from Henry but to get payback for what happened to her brother.

As for how I'd rate the show so far, probably a solid 8.5/10 so far personally. Nothing that truly shines as uncommonly exceptional, best of all time television, but better than a lot of what's out there. Certainly peak when it comes to live action video game adaptation. I thought episode 1 was a solid 9, with a point knocked off for the post 2003 stuff being weaker. Episode 2 I guess a solid 8-8.5. Episode 3 I'd say a 9. And episode 4 I'd give a firm 8. The Joel-Ellie stuff was great. The backstory with the KC group was a tad pedestrian for my tastes so far, but it's set-up for episode 5 so I'm not overly concerned until I see the payoff.

But I'm not sure exactly why my rating matters to what we're talking about here.

I didn't play the game. I don't know who Fedra is or what they represent.

I can only go on what I am shown as a viewer. If I have to go to HfBoards and read a post from Han Solo to understand what is happening, then they have not succeeded in showing the story to one who has not played the game.

 

[HanSolo]

I didn't play the game. I don't know who Fedra is or what they represent.

I can only go on what I am shown as a viewer. If I have to go to HfBoards and read a post from Han Solo to understand what is happening, then they have not succeeded in showing the story to one who has not played the game.

I haven't played it either...I've seen comparison footage and someone spoiled how the game ends and that was the extent of my knowledge going in and that's how it continues to be. Again I'm not trying to be rude, but you don't need me to understand any of this. Just be an active watcher and think about what you're watching. I know that sounds rude and I can't help that, but FEDRA as an entity is pretty easy to understand just from the premiere episode.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

I haven't played it either...I've seen comparison footage and someone spoiled how the game ends and that was the extent of my knowledge going in and that's how it continues to be. Again I'm not trying to be rude, but you don't need me to understand any of this. Just be an active watcher and think about what you're watching. I know that sounds rude and I can't help that, but FEDRA as an entity is pretty easy to understand just from the premiere episode.

lol

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Why would that be obvious to her? When she heard what Joel and Ellie did, rather than consider that it could be a stranger, as suggested, her tinfoil hat slipped off and she started attributing it to outsiders Henry and his "collaborators" called in as backup and then got everyone riled up over that narrative. Which weighs pretty heavily in favor of paranoid and obsseively deranged the more we talk about it. And then the rob and kill outsiders thing? I mean are you, I'm not saying this to be rude, but are you paying attention? They lay foundation for this being a common survival tactic in this dystopia, one that the protagonist used in the past, in this same episode. Sure, that could make her think "huh could've just been our fault as the aggressors" but she jumped to what she's been obsessing over.

I mean, again, your presumption that she should've been smarter about the threat they discovered works on the assumption that just because she presumably led these people to a successful revolt against FEDRA, that she must be competent and/or be able prioritize the right things over her own needs and wants. But that's asking a bit much from someone who shot, if not the only doctor the group had, one of few. Which is an insanely poor decision to make in an apocalyptic situation like this. She did it, clearly, out of revenge for her brother. So we already have foundation that she puts her vendetta over the needs of her people and if there's something to criticize her and the episode about, to me it's that. If that guy is really the group's only doctor, she really f***ed her own people. But to me that doesn't make for a stupid story, to me it's the potential for an interesting pseudo villain figure. But that's my impression of the character as written. She's not shown to be driven by keeping people safe from Henry but to get payback for what happened to her brother.

As for how I'd rate the show so far, probably a solid 8.5/10 so far personally. Nothing that truly shines as uncommonly exceptional, best of all time television, but better than a lot of what's out there. Certainly peak when it comes to live action video game adaptation. I thought episode 1 was a solid 9, with a point knocked off for the post 2003 stuff being weaker. Episode 2 I guess a solid 8-8.5. Episode 3 I'd say a 9. And episode 4 I'd give a firm 8. The Joel-Ellie stuff was great. The backstory with the KC group was a tad can't think of a better word than 'pedestrian' for my tastes so far, but it's set-up for episode 5 so I'm not overly concerned until I see the payoff.

But I'm not sure exactly why my rating matters to what we're talking about here.

She basically says he was the only doctor around

 

[HanSolo]

lol

Lol the show gives you everything you need to understand them at a basic level. As to how they came to maintain power for 20 years and how they operate at a national scale, you can only speculate. But what they represent is pretty simple.

Sorry, but if you don't understand them on a basic level, I don't know how you're actually paying attention to what's going on.

She basically says he was the only doctor around

You're right. Like that, to me jumped out as "what in the holy f*** are you doing?" way more than ignoring the rubble monster.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

I didn't play the game. I don't know who Fedra is or what they represent.

I can only go on what I am shown as a viewer. If I have to go to HfBoards and read a post from Han Solo to understand what is happening, then they have not succeeded in showing the story to one who has not played the game.

I dont get it, how do you not know FEDRA or what they represent

 

[Blender]

People who are emotional and acting irrationally don't make good decisions. This happens regularly in real life, but when characters act this way in film/television series there is always a lot of complaining about them not acting rationally and perfect.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Episode 4 was MUCH better than episode 3 except for a couple things

Why are you shooting and killing a doctor? If this were real doctors would be the worlds most valued asset you wouldn't do something that stupid

What the f*** are you doing?

Also Joel being over powered by somebody that looks like they are about 15 is hilarious, Yes I know it happens but it happens much later and is done by somebody with some muscle not by the president of chess club.

But the big issue is killing the doctor, why? Why the f*** are you doing that? What good comes of that decision?

7/10 could have been 8/10 if they didn't kill the doctor

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

People who are emotional and acting irrationally don't make good decisions. This happens regularly in real life, but when characters act this way in film/television series there is always a lot of complaining about them not acting rationally and perfect.

No people in real life would not kill the doctor, because you need the doctor.

The doctor should be the most protected person in the group.

 

[Blender]

No people in real life would not kill the doctor, because you need the doctor.

The doctor should be the most protected person in the group.

Yes, people in real life who blame the doctor for a death of their loved one might kill them. This isn't that hard to grasp.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Did we play the same game? The entire point of the game is about a cold broken man (Joel) developing a paternal relationship with Ellie. If it was about "survival" the game would not have ended the way it did, and the 2nd game would not have played out the way it did, because the beating heart of the series is love between Joel and Ellie and at its core it is a love story between the two.

I swear some of you don't pay attention to what was on screen in the game aside from killing clickers and the "epic" moments

It's not even subtle...the game is very explicitly about their father-daughter relationship. I can't believe there's any argument here.

 

[The Merchant]

Yeah No. find anywhere that says this is about love. maybe for the TV Show its taking that direction but the game was not about love.
even a simple google wont say that it is

What is the main theme of last of us?

The Last of Us never attempts to answer the impossible "Are you truly living if your only purpose is to survive?" question. It instead makes the salient point that purpose is a powerful motivator, and there's no one more dangerous than a person with everything to lose.Sep 29, 2022

What is the message of last of us?

Humanity and Redemption. Humanity is doomed, the Last of Us refers to the remaining survivors and there is no coming back from what happened to the human race. The survivors are fighting a losing battle, there is no hope for anyone, they are not coming back to prominence.

What are the themes of Last of Us 1?

One of the core themes found in any good post-apocalyptic tale is the question of what it really means to be alive. Are you truly living if your only purpose is to survive? The Last of Us not only examines this quest for purpose but offers us a protagonist possessed by his need for it.Sep 29, 2022

Themes - The Last of Us Part 1 Guide - IGN

With the game weaving a tale about human nature and what happens in a world without rules and order, it's unsurprising that The Last of Us is a heavily

www.ign.com

I fail to see where a main theme is love.....

a bigger theme is that there is no hope.

"DRUCKMANN: Yeah. I think the part that makes our story special is its themes and what it says about humanity because ultimately our story is about love, more specifically the unconditional love a parent feels for their child, that these two characters start out not knowing each other, not even liking each other."

Derp.

 

[HanSolo]

Imagine citing IGN as a source for thematic analysis lol.

 

[Pink Mist]

It's not even subtle...the game is very explicitly about their father-daughter relationship. I can't believe there's any argument here.

Yep lol. It's HFBoards though, someone would argue with you if you claimed that water is wet

Imagine citing IGN as a source for thematic analysis lol.

Submitting the high school book report without reading the book behaviour

 

[Osprey]

People who are emotional and acting irrationally don't make good decisions. This happens regularly in real life, but when characters act this way in film/television series there is always a lot of complaining about them not acting rationally and perfect.

We have to believe that the character is emotional and irrational enough to explain the bad decision. If Kathleen had watched her brother die on the payment just before confronting the doctor, who got up in her face and disrespected him, and she snapped and shot him, that would be understandable as an emotional reaction made in the heat of the moment. Instead, she let him live because he was a doctor (suggesting that she was thinking rationally), then suddenly changed her mind because of the deaths of two people whose relation to her was unclear, walked back to the cell with the intention to kill him and did so without hesitation, provocation or expression. She seemed to me relatively unemotional and aware of what she was doing.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

Lol the show gives you everything you need to understand them at a basic level. As to how they came to maintain power for 20 years and how they operate at a national scale, you can only speculate. But what they represent is pretty simple.

Sorry, but if you don't understand them on a basic level, I don't know how you're actually paying attention to what's going on.



You're right. Like that, to me jumped out as "what in the holy f*** are you doing?" way more than ignoring the rubble monster.

This is the problem with exposition dumps, which filled the first episode.

When telling and not showing, those of us not paying complete attention or not taking notes or not knowing the general plot or ending (such as yourself), the amount of information can become unfun.

Just as your wall of text responses (akin to an exposition dump) made it unwieldy to read and therefore led me to do a quick skim, the exposition dump in writing or movies is also unwieldy and tends to lead to disinterest. It can get boring. It becomes like a course or a textbook. Do you remember what the French author said in 1789? What, You don't remember that paragraph from Chapter 8, subsection 9? Well, pay better attention or you will have to stay after class!

If you tested me on the small thesis you just wrote on this episode, then I gather I better start studying because I'd probably fail.

I'm pretty sure if you go back in this thread you will see how I mentioned the problematic exposition dumps in the first episode. You are seeing a real life result of that. So you can either continue to belittle and cloak yourself in an aura of intellectual superiority or change your belief system a tad on the virtues of the Exposition Dump.

Anyway, this really has nothing to do with why she ignored the heaving mess in the basement. It does put another spotlight on the less than stellar writing though.

 

[RandV]

Anyway, this really has nothing to do with why she ignored the heaving mess in the basement. It does put another spotlight on the less than stellar writing though.

I had the impression that whatever it was there wasn't a damn thing they could do about it, other than pack up and leave the area. Like this is a fungal infection zombie theme, and that thing is bubbling up in an enclosed room. Poke it and it could douse the room in spores that will quickly mushroom-zombiefy anyone in the vicinity.

In such a scenario, if she tells everyone they probably panic and leave the city, denying the vengeance she's after. But it hasn't burst yet so she still has time, so vengeance still overcomes preservation.

 

[RandV]

Also speaking of Game of Thrones, as someone who had read the books prior to the show you'd occasionally get a situation where something happens and people spend the week wildly speculating what it means but as someone who knows what's going on you know it's pretty simple and kind of amusing how all over the place people get. The 'Purple Wedding' immediately comes to mind here.

 

[HanSolo]

This is the problem with exposition dumps, which filled the first episode.

When telling and not showing, those of us not paying complete attention or not taking notes or not knowing the general plot or ending (such as yourself), the amount of information can become unfun.

Just as your wall of text responses (akin to an exposition dump) made it unwieldy to read and therefore led me to do a quick skim, the exposition dump in writing or movies is also unwieldy and tends to lead to disinterest. It can get boring. It becomes like a course or a textbook. Do you remember what the French author said in 1789? What, You don't remember that paragraph from Chapter 8, subsection 9? Well, pay better attention or you will have to stay after class!

If you tested me on the small thesis you just wrote on this episode, then I gather I better start studying because I'd probably fail.

I'm pretty sure if you go back in this thread you will see how I mentioned the problematic exposition dumps in the first episode. You are seeing a real life result of that. So you can either continue to belittle and cloak yourself in an aura of intellectual superiority or change your belief system a tad on the virtues of the Exposition Dump.

Anyway, this really has nothing to do with why she ignored the heaving mess in the basement. It does put another spotlight on the less than stellar writing though.

Edited down cause I did a lot of repeating prior points but man. There's plenty of valid ways to describe this show both positive and negative but I really didn't imagine someone would complain that the exposition is too much for them. Again, this is a fairly basic plot and narrative to grasp. You can cut every line of dialogue about FEDRA and limit it to just what is shown and still understand its a military ruling class that controls the quarantine zones. But I guess that requires more of your full attention as a viewer than is reasonable. I mean that's what you're saying in bold right? And just because I know the basic cliff note on the ending of the game doesn't mean I knew a damn thing about FEDRA going in. I don't need to feign or claim an "aura of intellect" for very basic background world building. You can figure out what FEDRA is about in the first five minutes of the 20 years later shift in the premiere without a word of dialogue. Don't know what you're still confused about or need to study but I'm pretty over trying to unpack your deficient understanding.

 

[HanSolo]

We have to believe that the character is emotional and irrational enough to explain the bad decision. If Kathleen had watched her brother die on the payment just before confronting the doctor, who got up in her face and disrespected him, and she snapped and shot him, that would be understandable as an emotional reaction made in the heat of the moment. Instead, she let him live because he was a doctor (suggesting that she was thinking rationally), then suddenly changed her mind because of the deaths of two people whose relation to her was unclear, walked back to the cell with the intention to kill him and did so without hesitation, provocation or expression. She seemed to me relatively unemotional and aware of what she was doing.

Seemed pretty clear to me she was ready to kill him but held off hoping he could save the two random grunts. But taking her brief story in whole she seemed, to me, pretty fixated on avenging her brother. Admittedly the performance from the actress didn't convey that as well as she could have but her actions tell the story well enough. She's dead set on revenge, obsessed with getting it, and seems unhinged in that obsession.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

It's got nothing to do with intellectual superiority. The show gives very clear and very basic indicators of what FEDRA is all about. Both through visual storytelling and dialogue. Not just expo dumps. If you couldn't piece together what they're all about in this narrative I really can't come to any conclusion as to why that is other than you're not paying attention, or you do understand and you're just being disingenuous.

They run the QZs with their own laws since governments are gone. They maintain safety inside the QZs and test all entrants for infection and execute anyone infected or anyone who left and came back. They patrol the area outside the QZ for potential threats. Life under FEDRA is not free as is shown by the basic existence of the rebel group the Fireflys who actively fight against FEDRA at least in Boston. Again very basic things that are shown, not described through exposition dumps. Episode 2 (and 1) they talk about how Ellie started in a FEDRA military school and Tess/Joel discuss how FEDRA is the best equipped with vehicles and equipment. Very short statements that indicate that FEDRA is essentially a military ruling class. It's not about me being some patrician scholar. There's not a whole lot of intellectual nuance in the world building around FEDRA.

That's right, they discuss. How do you think exposition dumps happen? One character starts telling the other character about stuff. That's the very definition of it unless the voice over person enters the movie. I suspect you are being a tad facetious in your defense of the dump.

They mentioned some group who was in control. The name FEDRA was dumped during this time. When this happens people in the room with me tend to start talking or texting as characters are now telling you stuff. It's boring. I tend to go for the phone or a refreshment.

You can imagine the writer replying to a confused editor that a simple line or two while these characters are talking will solve their confusion. It's poor world building. Lots of telling, little showing. I think we saw some troops once. Like I said, I skimmed your wall of text, just as some of us skim the characters telling us stuff. Better things to do than hear some actor drone on unless said actor has amazing charisma.

It really doesn't matter anyway. When I mentioned I had no pre-knowledge of the game, you replied how you were no different as you had only heard a few things and knew the ending. So obviously none of these groups really matter at the end.

It's all just background noise.