The Jim Benning and Management Megathread - CAD got you down? He has you covered

[thepuckmonster]

Yeah ... it's like people only remember the youtube videos or something?

He did try to play a more typical PF game in the playoffs, and maybe people remember that? I'm at a loss.

yeah or maybe people think differently than you.

 

[MS]

yeah or maybe people think differently than you.

Obviously so.

And there are many things from that era I could disagree with but see the argument.

Todd Bertuzzi as consistently physical prototypical power forward is not one of them.

 

[arsmaster*]

He wasn't even on the same planet of the Tkachuks/Roberts/Shanahans in terms of either 'power forward style' or physicality.

He could be a mean, physical force when he felt like it. He rarely felt like it during the regular season.

And he fought as often as Matt Cooke.

He didn't need to fight to intimidate. Remind you if anyone?

 

[VanillaCoke]

He didn't need to fight to intimidate. Remind you if anyone?

Yep, Brandon Prust.

 

[MS]

He didn't need to fight to intimidate. Remind you if anyone?

That's what's so weird about this.

Bertuzzi and Kassian play pretty much the exact same way.

'Power forwards' who aren't consistently physical but have moments where they seem to snap, don't fight much but love facewashing guys in scrums, and play a lateral skill game more than a north-south straight line power game. And have issues defensively.

Obviously Kassian is highly unlikely to ever be as good as Bertuzzi was for a couple years, but the parallels are amazing. Right down to how Kassian's treatment in Vancouver is so eerily similar to how Bertuzzi was treated in NYI, where he was traded after he failed to be the 'next Clark Gillies'.

The notion that there's some sort of disconnect between Kassian idolizing Bertuzzi and then playing how he does is just ... weird.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

That's what's so weird about this.

Bertuzzi and Kassian play pretty much the exact same way.

'Power forwards' who aren't consistently physical but have moments where they seem to snap, don't fight much but love facewashing guys in scrums, and play a lateral skill game more than a north-south straight line power game. And have issues defensively.

Obviously Kassian is highly unlikely to ever be as good as Bertuzzi was for a couple years, but the parallels are amazing. Right down to how Kassian's treatment in Vancouver is so eerily similar to how Bertuzzi was treated in NYI, where he was traded after he failed to be the 'next Clark Gillies'.

The notion that there's some sort of disconnect between Kassian idolizing Bertuzzi and then playing how he does is just ... weird.

Imo there is no comparison. Bertuzzi was notoriously tough in front of the net and leaned on players constantly. Bertuzzi used his weight more effectively and would look for physical contact to lean on the player.

If Kassian hits any NHLr like Jackman or Chelios got laid out i'd be surprised.

 

[I in the Eye]

Strange topic going on in here.

It's a mega-thread about Jim Benning and Management decision making. (1) Does the trading of Kassian make sense? (2) Is there a common thread in the decision to trade Kassian and the desire to trade Seguin? (3) Is there a common style between Kassian the hockey player, and Bertuzzi, Kassian the hockey player's idol?

For me...

(1) No.
(2) Yes.
(3) Yeah, in some ways. Bertuzzi was a floater... Media and fans wanted him traded (before breaking out) for consistently FLOATING and being NON-PHYSICAL. After breaking out, Bertuzzi was still bashed for consistently FLOATING and being NON-PHYSICAL. When he snapped, Bertuzzi sometimes did over-the-top things. Bertuzzi had offensive-skill. Kassian has offensive-skill. Are Kassian and Bertuzzi similar? They're not carbon copies... but they are more similar than dissimilar.

Does the thread that links (1), (2), and (3) make sense?

Not on the surface, IMO. But in a mega-thread about Jim Benning and Management decision making, all that can happen is the discussion going down all kinds of nodes that don't logically line up, on the surface. There is no common thread or reasoning in Jim Benning and Management decision making. Reason evaporates into white wind, and what is left is LSD-inspired, psychedelic connections between seemingly unrelated things. It's madness.

Describe the words in this thread, as an image:

Look, Bertuzzi dripping on the end of a leaf... Seguin, bouncing on a bunk bed, with a stuffed bear and beer bottle in hand, on a hillside... Jim Benning sitting on a thrown, with a crown made out of thorns... Linden on his lap... Benning stroking his hair. Weisbrod, peaking behind the curtain, pulling the strings, a giant spider crawling on the side of his face.

How do Jim Benning and Management make decisions?

MADNESS. Glorious madness. It's watching a performance artist throw himself down the stairs, or swallow paint to throw it up on the canvas, for art. This is art. And because this is a thread about documenting the decision making.. this thread can only be a similar kind of art.

It is what it is.

The kind of art that makes you say afterwards... What the **** did I just read.

 

[GJB]

The comparables between Bertuzzi and Kassian are valid for me. I think Bertuzzi showed more offensive upside earlier in his career than Kassian and had more impressive junior numbers, including a playoff run where he had over 2pts/game. So there was probably more hype / expectations around Bert.

But the way they play, the abrasiveness, the physicality, raw skill etc... is mostly comparable for me. And now even the way they both first struggled with their first NHL team (albeit 2 for Kass), has similarities.

If Kassian turns out to be even half the player Bertuzzi was then the Prust trade is going to have enough people calling for Mr.Benning.

 

[DL44]

Imo there is no comparison. Bertuzzi was notoriously tough in front of the net and leaned on players constantly. Bertuzzi used his weight more effectively and would look for physical contact to lean on the player.

If Kassian hits any NHLr like Jackman or Chelios got laid out i'd be surprised.

The early career similarities, statures, styles of play were extremely mouth watering and tantalizing to have acquired... Was soooo expecting to have a potential Bert Jr on our hands.

Unfortunately he may also have another thing in common with Bert... Bertuzzi's Back...

14/15 was going to be his break yr... but never got on track beginning with the hip in preseason.. then something else.. then something else.. then the back.. just brutal unfortunate yr in the injury/luck department.

Culture crap aside... If he can stave off injury, he has 40-50 pt capability. I just don't think he will be that lucky.

 

[Mofletz]

Imo there is no comparison. Bertuzzi was notoriously tough in front of the net and leaned on players constantly. Bertuzzi used his weight more effectively and would look for physical contact to lean on the player.

If Kassian hits any NHLr like Jackman or Chelios got laid out i'd be surprised.

Both lazy players.

I agree that Bertuzzi was tough in front of the net (Pronger, Chelios battles) The problem is that He barely wanted to play that game.

Skill wise Bertuzzi>>>Kassian. Its not even close.
Hockey Sense Bertuzzi>>>Kassian
Hockey IQ Bertuzzi>>Kassian
Better Skater/Quicker Kassian>>Bertuzzi
Better D/backcheck Kassian>>>>>>>Bertuzzi.

My biggest pet peeve against Kassian was the fact that he didn't really know how to hit. So many times he would hit the glass instead of the player. Bertuzzi when he wanted to hit, he would "destroy" players.

 

[BobbyJazzLegs]

I think you're misreading me here. I'm in full agreement that the Prust trade was all about Benning targeting Prust and nothing to do with wanting to move Kassian.

While Kassian redeemed himself by the end of the season, it was largely because injuries let him back into the lineup in particular a spot with the Sedins. Remember when he was being benched in favour of McMillan? Maybe the trade rumours were overly speculative, but as far as the coaching staff goes on Jan 1st last year he was clearly in Willie's doghouse while on Nov 30th there was no indication of any problems.

It was about Kassian and it was about Prust. Not one or the other.

 

[BobbyJazzLegs]

If a guy like Kass is not using his size and physicality to his advantage, it's simply a missed opportunity. It doesn't have to be his ENTIRE GAME though. I don't think anyone ever wanted that from him.

Own the puck, drive to the net AND make nice plays.

If Kass is ever to reach his true potential, he needs to do it all to some degree.

 

[Toxic0n]

If a guy like Kass is not using his size and physicality to his advantage, it's simply a missed opportunity. It doesn't have to be his ENTIRE GAME though. I don't think anyone ever wanted that from him.

Own the puck, drive to the net AND make nice plays.

If Kass is ever to reach his true potential, he needs to do it all to some degree.

Even if he doesn't reach his potential, he is still better than Prust. Cheaper too. Younger as well.

 

[bossram]

If a guy like Kass is not using his size and physicality to his advantage, it's simply a missed opportunity. It doesn't have to be his ENTIRE GAME though. I don't think anyone ever wanted that from him.

Own the puck, drive to the net AND make nice plays.

If Kass is ever to reach his true potential, he needs to do it all to some degree.

Even if he doesn't reach his potential, he is still better than Prust. Cheaper too. Younger as well.

He's already better than Prust right now. And younger. And cheaper.

The deal was awful. There is no legitimate argument against it.

 

[Jack Tripper]

He's already better than Prust right now. And younger. And cheaper.

The deal was awful. There is no legitimate argument against it.

to get back on topic, yeah, confirming whether kassian is even close to a bertuzzi career path is not necessary to conclude that it was a terrible trade

fair enough if management made the decision that kassian didn't fit in the long term plans of the club, but it doesn't excuse the absolutely shocking value they received in the trade

 

[F A N]

Not to be offensive, but were you guys actually following the Canucks when Bertuzzi was here?

I was a huge Todd Bertuzzi fan. His play in the 2nd half of the 01-02 season was the best 40-game segment by any player in franchise history.

He was absolutely NOT a consistently physical player or prototypical power forward. He brought it physically more consistently in the playoffs (perhaps to the detriment of his offense) but in the regular season ... nope.

I'm astonished anyone is even arguing this, to be honest.

I'm not disparaging him at all. He used to be my favourite player. He was consistently awesome offensively for 1.5 years. He was the best hockey player on the planet for awhile in 2002.

But anyone arguing he was a 'prototypical power forward' or 'consistently physical' is just completely out to lunch.

He had some great physical 'moments', but he was always an enigma in terms of physical play. Except in terms of facewashing guys in scrums. He was great at that.

And offensively, he was a dangly, high-risk player, not even remotely a straight-lines rugged stereotypical PF.

Yeah ... it's like people only remember the youtube videos or something?

He did try to play a more typical PF game in the playoffs, and maybe people remember that? I'm at a loss.

You make it sound like it was a bad thing that Bertuzzi upped his physical game in the playoffs. Had Kassian morphed into a prime Milan Lucic whenever the playoffs came around he might still be here. Bertuzzi's physical game was inconsistent early on in his career. But in his prime here in Vancouver pre-Moore, he was certainly a dominating power forward who was the prototypical power forward. Remember those pushoff goals that NHL GMs sought to ban? This was in the clutch and grab era. He was capable of making power moves in an era where defenders can grab onto you. He was immovable from in front of the net and could shove guys aside. Kassian might actually be more effective in the clutch and grab era where skating hard and conditioning was not as much of a requirement.

Being a powerforward doesn't mean he can't dangle or had to have a high volume of hits. In his prime, Bertuzzi was a menace on the ice and created a lot of room for himself and for his linemates. No he didn't have a high volume of hits. He floated or roamed around looking for that big hit. Remember the hit he put on Jackman? Bertuzzi was big, heavy, and could skate. His hits could knock you out of a game. Players were constantly aware of him and watching Bertuzzi during that time was a treat. Very few players were willing to take a hit from Bertuzzi to make a play. Offensively, he was immovable from in front of the net and would just shove guys aside.

 

[vanuck]

Were they injured at the time?

This was after the game and if I recall they'd just been playing in it. In any case I don't see why it would make a difference.

 

[ahmon]

to get back on topic, yeah, confirming whether kassian is even close to a bertuzzi career path is not necessary to conclude that it was a terrible trade

fair enough if management made the decision that kassian didn't fit in the long term plans of the club, but it doesn't excuse the absolutely shocking value they received in the trade

they shopped him for a long time. the shocking value is because canucks overvalue Kassian. he had little value around the league.

should have traded him much earlier.

 

[Intangibos]

they shopped him for a long time. the shocking value is because canucks overvalue Kassian. he had little value around the league.

should have traded him much earlier.

If the guy who put 2nd line numbers from the 3rd line with no PP time has little value around the league, then the coach and GM aren't doing their jobs very well.

 

[ahmon]

If the guy who put 2nd line numbers from the 3rd line with no PP time has little value around the league, then the coach and GM aren't doing their jobs very well.

? didnt get it.

 

[CherryToke]

He didn't need to fight to intimidate. Remind you if anyone?

since when does Kassian intimidate anyone? pretty much any real tough guy can drop him..

 

[arsmaster*]

they shopped him for a long time. the shocking value is because canucks overvalue Kassian. he had little value around the league.

should have traded him much earlier.

Or never acquired him.

Or never traded him at all.

 

[VC]

I dunno, I don't really see the on ice comparison between Bertuzzi and Kassian. Completely different in the offensive zone. One was a little more finesse and made passes the other leaned on the opposition to make a play. The similarity is that they were labeled powerforward while not being the prototypical Rick Tocchet. Both are big skilled players that got nasty when the time called for it but where not bangers.

Going to miss Kass, okay with him being traded but really could of used a similarly aged/upside centre or defensemen back in return.

 

[VanillaCoke]

since when does Kassian intimidate anyone? pretty much any real tough guy can drop him..

You must've missed the maroon pic.

 

[arsmaster*]

You make it sound like it was a bad thing that Bertuzzi upped his physical game in the playoffs. Had Kassian morphed into a prime Milan Lucic whenever the playoffs came around he might still be here. Bertuzzi's physical game was inconsistent early on in his career. But in his prime here in Vancouver pre-Moore, he was certainly a dominating power forward who was the prototypical power forward. Remember those pushoff goals that NHL GMs sought to ban? This was in the clutch and grab era. He was capable of making power moves in an era where defenders can grab onto you. He was immovable from in front of the net and could shove guys aside. Kassian might actually be more effective in the clutch and grab era where skating hard and conditioning was not as much of a requirement.

Being a powerforward doesn't mean he can't dangle or had to have a high volume of hits. In his prime, Bertuzzi was a menace on the ice and created a lot of room for himself and for his linemates. No he didn't have a high volume of hits. He floated or roamed around looking for that big hit. Remember the hit he put on Jackman? Bertuzzi was big, heavy, and could skate. His hits could knock you out of a game. Players were constantly aware of him and watching Bertuzzi during that time was a treat. Very few players were willing to take a hit from Bertuzzi to make a play. Offensively, he was immovable from in front of the net and would just shove guys aside.

I don't think anybody is knocking him ratcheted up the hits for the playoffs. It's literally what every NHL player does in the playoffs.

The funny part is that some poster listed two big hits as Bert's example of dominating physicality. Two playoff hits.

I agree with most of what you say about Bert but we also need to remember that Bert has 30 pounds on kassian.