The Jim Benning and Management Megathread - CAD got you down? He has you covered

[Jyrki21]

There's better ways to make an argument than the concept that Kassian and Seguin are somehow in the same stratosphere. Literally all you can say that they have in common was being born in SW Ontario.

All MS said is that it "reeks of the same thought process" and that it was an overreaction to a young player's leisure time. Nowhere do Kassian and Seguin's skill levels have to be comparable in order for this to be true.

 

[thepuckmonster]

All MS said is that it "reeks of the same thought process" and that it was an overreaction to a young player's leisure time. Nowhere do Kassian and Seguin's skill levels have to be comparable in order for this to be true.

The same process would kind of require Benning to have actually been the person that made that trade. His input was asked, that's about it. Chiarelli and their owner were the ones that wanted Seguin gone. It's not that Benning sat there with a Powerpoint presentation about how Tyler Seguin is satan of the universe. It was literally one sentence about his commitment level.

**** on Benning for things he's actually done. Christ, **** on him for the Kassian trade. It's really dumb to tie any sort of tangential evidence of Seguin into him. If he was truly the puppetmaster behind the show in Boston than I guess we have to give him more credit for actually winning a cup.

Either actually talk about the whole narrative or don't do it at all. Personally I think it's stupid, Jim has done enough to warrant criticism in his own right without grasping at desperate Boston excuses straws.

 

[arsmaster*]

There's better ways to make an argument than the concept that Kassian and Seguin are somehow in the same stratosphere. Literally all you can say that they have in common was being born in SW Ontario.

The narrative of Benning being the sole responsibility behind the Seguin trade is getting old. It was a stupid trade but also remember that the guy running Edmonton that's "changing the guard and re-inventing" the team is the same one that wanted Seguin gone. They won a cup together on the same team (ironically beating us, you know, the best regular season team since 1976-1977). You can't laud one with out the other, there's enough reasons to crap on Benning without making stupid strawman things about Seguin.

Nobody mentioned Chiarelli. Nobody here cares about Chiarelli. Nobody is placing blame on only benning for trading Seguin. This narrative doesn't exist. We just have to go by what he said. He said some things that suggest effectiveness comes second especially "in the regular season".

This is not a straw man. Nobody is placing sole blame on him. They're reading into what he says and does.

 

[arsmaster*]

All MS said is that it "reeks of the same thought process" and that it was an overreaction to a young player's leisure time. Nowhere do Kassian and Seguin's skill levels have to be comparable in order for this to be true.

Thank you.

 

[MS]

If Kassian had close to the amount of skill that Seguin has I'd agree with you. Unfortunately that's not the case, Seguin is a franchise player, Kassian is not. That's not being disingenuous, that's just the truth. It doesn't make the trade better but there doesn't need to be sensationalizing to emphasize that.

Kass has played under 4 different coaches for 5 years. They all have the same thing to say. This isn't the same as Seguin liking to party a little harder after he won a cup and got a "stanley cup champian" tattoo. Seguin has scored over 70 points, Kassian has 29 and we all have to re-iterate that it was WITHOUT PP time because it needs to be enforced about that 0.3PPG. They're not even remotely the same kind of player and I really dislike Seguin and like Kassian.

Trading a good player for dumb reasons isn't as bad as trading a superstar for dumb reasons but it's still bad and the same process failure is still in place. It's not 'sensationalizing' - it's just saying you can see the same dumb reasoning leading to the same dumb mistakes. Obviously Kassian isn't Seguin.

First off, the fact that he played under 4 coaches in 5 years is a problem that wasn't his fault, wouldn't you say? And before giving up on a guy who'd showed his potential, wouldn't you say it would be a good idea to let him develop under one coach for 2-3 years and build some stability and see how that goes?

Second, no, they didn't all 'say the same thing'. And pretty much every NHL player, ever, is going to have his coach question his consistency or defensive play at some point in his development. This is not unusual. All that's unusual is that Kassian has had so many coaches in such a short time.

 

[thepuckmonster]

Nobody mentioned Chiarelli. Nobody here cares about Chiarelli. Nobody is placing blame on only benning for trading Seguin. This narrative doesn't exist. We just have to go by what he said. He said some things that suggest effectiveness comes second especially "in the regular season".

This is not a straw man. Nobody is placing sole blame on him. They're reading into what he says and does.

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

Person 1 asserts proposition X.
Person 2 argues against a false but superficially similar proposition Y, as if an argument against Y were an argument against X.

This reasoning is a fallacy of relevance: it fails to address the proposition in question by misrepresenting the opposing position.

For example:

Quoting an opponent's words out of context—i.e., choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).[3]
Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then denying that person's arguments—thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[2]
Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.

Yeah, I would say that relating Benning to Seguin is pretty much the definition of strawman.

 

[MS]

All MS said is that it "reeks of the same thought process" and that it was an overreaction to a young player's leisure time. Nowhere do Kassian and Seguin's skill levels have to be comparable in order for this to be true.

Yeah, exactly.

 

[Ryp37]

Relating Benning to Seguin isn't strawman at all, he's on video supporting the trade

It easily shows they'd rather discard an immature player then try to reign him in. I guess Louie Eriksson plays the right way

 

[thepuckmonster]

Trading a good player for dumb reasons isn't as bad as trading a superstar for dumb reasons but it's still bad and the same process failure is still in place. It's not 'sensationalizing' - it's just saying you can see the same dumb reasoning leading to the same dumb mistakes. Obviously Kassian isn't Seguin.

First off, the fact that he played under 4 coaches in 5 years is a problem that wasn't his fault, wouldn't you say? And before giving up on a guy who'd showed his potential, wouldn't you say it would be a good idea to let him develop under one coach for 2-3 years and build some stability and see how that goes?

Second, no, they didn't all 'say the same thing'. And pretty much every NHL player, ever, is going to have his coach question his consistency or defensive play at some point in his development. This is not unusual. All that's unusual is that Kassian has had so many coaches in such a short time.

He's 25, not 12. At some point there has to be responsibility on his end for not living up to expectations of 4 coaches, no?

In the last month I've read the following about Kassian:

1) His role model and idol is Todd Bertuzzi. I'm pretty sure all of us can conclusively say that Bertuzzi is a top 5 PWF of all time, no?

2) He will be a "50 point Ryane Clowe". Let's just ignore the fact that Ryane Clowe was already pretty damn close to that in his own right, but I'm assuming a lot of people actually haven't watched said player at the time.

But:

Now we get mad at management for expecting him to 1) play like the PWF he says he is and 2) the same kind of player we think he is. Now that's not his game and shame on management for pigeon-holing him into a mold.

It sucks to lose a player of Kassian's skillset but let's not pretend that he wasn't a big part of his own undoing.

 

[MS]

Yeah, I would say that relating Benning to Seguin is pretty much the definition of strawman.

What? No it isn't. At all, by any of those points.

Benning was clearly WAY on board for trading Seguin, and seemed to be the most gung-ho in that management group about it.

It wasn't his final call or solely his decision, obviously, but he was clearly completely on board with a terrible move (and probably one of the driving forces behind it) for terrible reasons, and of course that should be counted against him.

 

[thepuckmonster]

Relating Benning to Seguin isn't strawman at all, he's on video supporting the trade

It easily shows they'd rather discard an immature player then try to reign him in. I guess Louie Eriksson plays the right way

Yeah well I would think so with he's multiple 60+ point seasons and being one of the best defensive wingers in the game.

 

[Upoil]

Nobody mentioned Chiarelli. Nobody here cares about Chiarelli. Nobody is placing blame on only benning for trading Seguin. This narrative doesn't exist. We just have to go by what he said. He said some things that suggest effectiveness comes second especially "in the regular season".

This is not a straw man. Nobody is placing sole blame on him. They're reading into what he says and does.

Where does he say something about Seguin? I just went to go look at the Behind the B series on Youtube and Benning doesn't say anything in the boardroom clip aside from almost crying when he hears about Horton. Was it in a later episode?

 

[Ryp37]

Yeah well I would think so with he's multiple 60+ point seasons and being one of the best defensive wingers in the game.

Guy hasn't cracked 50 in Boston, embarassing trade for Chirarelli and Jimbo

 

[MS]

He's 25, not 12. At some point there has to be responsibility on his end for not living up to expectations of 4 coaches, no?

In the last month I've read the following about Kassian:

1) His role model and idol is Todd Bertuzzi. I'm pretty sure all of us can conclusively say that Bertuzzi is a top 5 PWF of all time, no?

2) He will be a "50 point Ryane Clowe". Let's just ignore the fact that Ryane Clowe was already pretty damn close to that in his own right, but I'm assuming a lot of people actually haven't watched said player at the time.

But:

Now we get mad at management for expecting him to 1) play like the PWF he says he is and 2) the same kind of player we think he is. Now that's not his game and shame on management for pigeon-holing him into a mold.

It sucks to lose a player of Kassian's skillset but let's not pretend that he wasn't a big part of his own undoing.

He's 24. And was 22-23 for the events being discussed. Let's not make stuff up.

Bertuzzi played the exact opposite of a traditional PF game. He rarely fought, was sporadically physical, and relied mostly on his talent and puck skills.

But who cares? How does linking a player's style to his role model matter? All that matters is that he's being an effective hockey player. And he was. And yes, management should be blamed for trying to turn him into something he wasn't.

And, again, this 3/4 coaches stuff is garbage. Tortorella was hugely complimental of Kassian at the conclusion of the 13-14 season. And Kassian barely played for Ruff and Vigeault at the age of 20-21. He's had significant problems with 1 coach.

 

[Jyrki21]

The same process would kind of require Benning to have actually been the person that made that trade. His input was asked, that's about it. Chiarelli and their owner were the ones that wanted Seguin gone. It's not that Benning sat there with a Powerpoint presentation about how Tyler Seguin is satan of the universe. It was literally one sentence about his commitment level.

This isn't correct. No one is saying Benning was a master of any puppets, or the decision-maker. That actually is pretty irrelevant to the point being made. We're talking about how he -- Jim Benning, and no one else -- makes decisions. In this case, he committed his views to a recorded video. This isn't rumor, this isn't speculation. This is the view that Benning openly communicated to the whole world. Taking that view as representative of his thinking process isn't any sort of stretch of logic, it's the perfect way to judge how he operates... whether or not other people in Boston agreed with him, or whether or not he had the authority to make the trade.

 

[thepuckmonster]

Guy hasn't cracked 50 in Boston, embarassing trade for Chirarelli and Jimbo

2008–09 Dallas Stars NHL 82 36 27 63
2009–10 Dallas Stars NHL 82 29 42 71
2010–11 Dallas Stars NHL 79 27 46 73
2011–12 Dallas Stars NHL 82 26 45 71
2012–13 Dallas Stars NHL 48 12 17 29
2013–14 Boston Bruins NHL 61 10 27 37
2014–15 Boston Bruins NHL 81 22 25 47

NHL totals 643GP 182 259 441

Yeah he really sucks.

Yeah 47 isn't 50 but let's not pretend that we have much more than Sedins to brag about who's gone beyond that. The last one was Kesler 4 years ago. You know, the same year Eriksson was throwing up 70 points on a much less talented team.

 

[thepuckmonster]

This isn't correct. No one is saying Benning was a master of any puppets, or the decision-maker. That actually is pretty irrelevant to the point being made. We're talking about how he -- Jim Benning, and no one else -- makes decisions. In this case, he committed his views to a recorded video. This isn't rumor, this isn't speculation. This is the view that Benning openly communicated to the whole world. Taking that view as representative of his thinking process isn't any sort of stretch of logic, it's the perfect way to judge how he operates... whether or not other people in Boston agreed with him, or whether or not he had the authority to make the trade.

Sorry, was the point not just made that Benning was the strongest supporter behind the Seguin trade?

 

[Upoil]

This isn't correct. No one is saying Benning was a master of any puppets, or the decision-maker. That actually is pretty irrelevant to the point being made. We're talking about how he -- Jim Benning, and no one else -- makes decisions. In this case, he committed his views to a recorded video. This isn't rumor, this isn't speculation. This is the view that Benning openly communicated to the whole world. Taking that view as representative of his thinking process isn't any sort of stretch of logic, it's the perfect way to judge how he operates... whether or not other people in Boston agreed with him, or whether or not he had the authority to make the trade.

Do you have the clip by chance? Or know where/when he said this? I've been scouring Youtube and can't find it. Just the clip in the boardroom where the only thing Jimbo does is lament Horton leaving.

 

[Ryp37]

2008–09 Dallas Stars NHL 82 36 27 63
2009–10 Dallas Stars NHL 82 29 42 71
2010–11 Dallas Stars NHL 79 27 46 73
2011–12 Dallas Stars NHL 82 26 45 71
2012–13 Dallas Stars NHL 48 12 17 29
2013–14 Boston Bruins NHL 61 10 27 37
2014–15 Boston Bruins NHL 81 22 25 47

NHL totals 643GP 182 259 441

Yeah he really sucks.

Yeah 47 isn't 50 but let's not pretend that we have much more than Sedins to brag about who's gone beyond that. The last one was Kesler 4 years ago. You know, the same year Eriksson was throwing up 70 points on a much less talented team.

Now post Seguins

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

One thing I know for sure is that all videos released for public consumption by sports franchises are absolute reality and are never just exercises in PR

 

[arsmaster*]

Who cares about loui eriksson. Seriously. Irrelevant deflecting.

 

[thepuckmonster]

Who cares about loui eriksson. Seriously. Irrelevant deflecting.

Bringing up Seguin kind of ties in Eriksson, bringing up his resume isn't deflecting.

 

[arsmaster*]

One thing I know for sure is that all videos released for public consumption by sports franchises are absolute reality and are never just exercises in PR

Like the sbisa trade video. All PR. He was just a cap dump like many speculated.

 

[Jyrki21]

Sorry, was the point not just made that Benning was the strongest supporter behind the Seguin trade?

Based on his own words, yes. Why does that mean he had to have the authority to make the trade on his own? If I tell the world "I'd like to nuke Brazil", you're free to judge me on that even though I have no means to nuke Brazil.

This is why we study Congressional voting records -- to know whether we agree with a politician or not, and to discern how they think. Even though their vote doesn't make the decision on its own.

We are criticizing Benning's views and decision-making based on what he, himself, has chosen to communicate.

Upoil - it was posted in the original thread from when Benning was hired, at the very least.

 

[arsmaster*]

Bringing up Seguin kind of ties in Eriksson, bringing up his resume isn't deflecting.

I don't think it does at all.

We're talking about how Jim benning thinks and acts.