The Jarmo Report (card)

[blahblah]

This would be why I'm out of faith and out of patience with them. The only even semiconsistent direction I've ever seen is "boy, this name sure will get everybody's attention" - flashy, not substantive.

You think that Jones and Saad aren't substantive? If so, I'll just give you an "Umm... Ok, whatever.".

I'm just curious what lack of direction do we seem to have? We added a 25-30 goal scorer in Saad (needed) and we added what sure to appears to be a #2 (at worst) defender in Jones (needed). We added some veteran depth in the past.

Seems like to me they are trying to win.

Are you saying that letting DMac and Letestu go are a removal from a direction?

Are you seeing a lack of direction in our drafting?

I'm kind of confused here; I really need some clarification.

The only direction I saw from Howson was "draft and develop".

Just food for thought; not liking the moves made doesn't imply a lack of direction - it just means you don't like the moves.

 

[EDM]

Blah, stop sounding so rational. ;-)

 

[Viqsi]

You think that Jones and Saad aren't substantive? If so, I'll just give you an "Umm... Ok, whatever.".

No, but I do think that of Gaborik, Horton, and Tortorella.

I'm just curious what lack of direction do we seem to have?

As this was a continuous point of disagreement between us w/r/t Howson, I don't think I can convince you.

Just food for thought; not liking the moves made doesn't imply a lack of direction - it just means you don't like the moves.

I don't like some of these moves because of that apparent lack of direction, not the other way 'round.

 

[CBJx614]

No, but I do think that of Gaborik, Horton, and Tortorella.



As this was a continuous point of disagreement between us w/r/t Howson, I don't think I can convince you.


I don't like some of these moves because of that apparent lack of direction, not the other way 'round.

Way to early imo to lump him in there. We saw an almost immediate rise in defensive team play with him and we're seeing a few players shine who weren't before.
This season I think needs to be taken with a grain of salt, I feel like we've played more games with our #3/#4 goalies than we have our #1/#2 goalies.

This offseason and next season are going to be crucial to the outcome of this franchise imo.

 

[EspenK]

Could someone please define "direction" to me. Most successful teams have a collection of different type players. Some skill, some grit, some stars, some steady 3rd & 4th liners. Not all guys play the same.

Throw in the issues caused by the salary cap and the vagaries of the draft and I see following a preconceived direction is kind of a nebulous unobtainable goal.

To me what we we need are:

A top line C not based on scoring but all around skill so that everyone recognizes him as such and major doesn't have to quote stats to prove it. (please no "we had one but we traded him" responses. He was useless here and we didn't have a potential 1D so to me it was a great trade)

A better 5th & 6th D pair.

More consistent goal tending.

One or two offensively talented F's

Other than that I think our direction is fine.

I think the last couple of drafts have provided us with guys who could fill some of my wants.

Korpi might be the answer to the goalie issue or Bob could return to Vezina Bob performance.

 

[JacketsDavid]

Lack of Direction I do believe that.
This team has convinced themselves so many times that they were one player away. They've always built for next season not long-term.
Always looking for the silver bullet that takes them from (at best) mediocre to good.
Trying to play fantasy hockey with a real NHL team. Saad is a perfect example - we needed to fortify our blue line instead added another forward. Nothing against Saad but the team went shopping for a boat and came home with a motorcycle.

At least now they have a vision/plan that I can believe in (improving the blue line) instead of just adding random forwards to the roster.

 

[EspenK]

Lack of Direction I do believe that.
This team has convinced themselves so many times that they were one player away. They've always built for next season not long-term.
Always looking for the silver bullet that takes them from (at best) mediocre to good.
Trying to play fantasy hockey with a real NHL team. Saad is a perfect example - we needed to fortify our blue line instead added another forward. Nothing against Saad but the team went shopping for a boat and came home with a motorcycle.

At least now they have a vision/plan that I can believe in (improving the blue line) instead of just adding random forwards to the roster.

You make it seem like the solidify the blueline store was wide open for business last year and all Jarmo had to do was go shopping and voila we'd have Seth Jones and Joey too. Uh huh.

 

[Viqsi]

A top line C not based on scoring but all around skill so that everyone recognizes him as such and major doesn't have to quote stats to prove it. (please no "we had one but we traded him" responses. He was useless here and we didn't have a potential 1D so to me it was a great trade)

Refresh my memory - who did we most recently draft in the first round, again?

We certainly didn't have one who would be playing within the next year or two or three (barring a bounceback by Murray, which hadn't happened until Jones came in anyways), but that's a different consideration.

 

[DarkandStormy]

I'm trying to figure out how we get substantially better in 2016-2017 without plugging Matthews into the lineup.

Jenner-Dubinsky-Atkinson
Saad-Wennberg-Foligno
Calvert-Karlsson-Rychel
Anderson-Chaput-Clarkson

Murray-Jones
Johnson-Savard
Werenski-Goloubef
Paliotta

Bob
Korpisalo

*Assumes the team dumps Tyutin, Hartnell, Boll, and Campbell and does not bring back Prout or Falk. And Clarkson isn't put on LTIR.

Looks crappy still.

 

[JacketsDavid]

You make it seem like the solidify the blueline store was wide open for business last year and all Jarmo had to do was go shopping and voila we'd have Seth Jones and Joey too. Uh huh.

So what you're saying is if we dangled our #1C in the offseason we couldn't have got a dman?
Again you have no idea (just like I don't) what could have been out there.
But to assume a guy like Jones was not available until after the season started is likely incorrect.

We needed a d-man. Whose job is it to get a dman? The fans? No. The other players? No. The Coach? No.

It's one mans job (with the support of ownership). He failed. So instead he goes out and brings home a bright, shiny new toy. That's cute, but still means he didn't do his job.

 

[EspenK]

So what you're saying is if we dangled our #1C in the offseason we couldn't have got a dman?
Again you have no idea (just like I don't) what could have been out there.
But to assume a guy like Jones was not available until after the season started is likely incorrect.

We needed a d-man. Whose job is it to get a dman? The fans? No. The other players? No. The Coach? No.

It's one mans job (with the support of ownership). He failed. So instead he goes out and brings home a bright, shiny new toy. That's cute, but still means he didn't do his job.

I'm not sure why I'm going to continue this discussion but for the sake of argument here goes.

First off I think Joey was traded because for whatever reasons he went off the rails this season. Coming into the season and in the last off season I'm guessing moving him wasn't a priority. Getting Seth Jones for him was a good deal for the Jackets.

Secondly, the team was coming off a 15-1-1 finish and had one other really good run last year so everyone believed this was a good hockey team that wasn't in need of a major overhaul. Turns out everyone was wrong.

Third, teams don't trade #1 D or even potential #1 D very often. Because none were traded last off season I am going to guess none were available or the price was ridiculously high.

I believe the trade for Saad was, and still is, a good one. Anisimov never was spectacular here and at the time was superfluous, Dano is not a budding superstar based on this year's play and the rest of the guys were roster/salary dumps. A win for Jarmo.

You seem to believe it was just a matter of asking and we could have Doughty or Subban or Keith or their equivalent in a Jackets uniform. I think you are mistaken.

 

[KJ Dangler]

So what you're saying is if we dangled our #1C in the offseason we couldn't have got a dman?
Again you have no idea (just like I don't) what could have been out there.
But to assume a guy like Jones was not available until after the season started is likely incorrect.

We needed a d-man. Whose job is it to get a dman? The fans? No. The other players? No. The Coach? No.

It's one mans job (with the support of ownership). He failed. So instead he goes out and brings home a bright, shiny new toy. That's cute, but still means he didn't do his job.

Last offseason, Joey was looked at as someone that turned corner, was an allstar last year, and possibly all the baggage of his past had appeared to be going away. Season starts, he gives some garbage interview about its a long season, ok to struggle early, (think this was after the 4th of 5th straight loss. Richards is canned, and immediately Torts comes in and calls Joey out of shape. We all saw him playing with little effort, coasting, and with Torts it came to a head. So not getting your arguement. It was stated they were chasing help for defense the past 2 years. Did we know Joey would turn back into a lazy player, and out of shape ? Would Seth Jones have been able to be aquired in the offseason. I say no. Nashville feels they can make a run at the cup this season and had to make the move. How many years has Nashville been chasing offense. Does their Gm get torched for not having a true #1 centerman for the last 16 years ? Yes this season sucks, it hasnt gone as planned. Has the front office done everything perfectly ? Absolutely not. I feel they are taking the right steps now. It started with getting rid of Richards. Every season, we struggled out of the gate, and it seems pretty obvious it was how our players were being conditioned, and the type of camp run. If you look at statistics this season, period one the jackets play pretty even, period 2 t goes down hill, and period 3 , it falls apart. I will try to find the link I read backing up this statement.

 

[major major]

Could someone please define "direction" to me. Most successful teams have a collection of different type players. Some skill, some grit, some stars, some steady 3rd & 4th liners. Not all guys play the same.

Throw in the issues caused by the salary cap and the vagaries of the draft and I see following a preconceived direction is kind of a nebulous unobtainable goal.

To me what we we need are:

A top line C not based on scoring but all around skill so that everyone recognizes him as such and major doesn't have to quote stats to prove it. (please no "we had one but we traded him" responses. He was useless here and we didn't have a potential 1D so to me it was a great trade)

A better 5th & 6th D pair.

More consistent goal tending.

One or two offensively talented F's

Other than that I think our direction is fine.

I think the last couple of drafts have provided us with guys who could fill some of my wants.

Korpi might be the answer to the goalie issue or Bob could return to Vezina Bob performance.

I agree that direction is kind of overrated. Most GMs are trying to do basically the same thing, with some variation depending on how old the team is, or how much they want size or skill. Pretty much everyone wants hockey sense nowadays. But at the same time I think Jarmo should have moved more quickly to get a top pair D.

I agree with your priorities list. I'm happy with the young core of the team it's just these few lineup holes we have to address. Beyond the obvious problem with the bottom pair, I'm not at all happy with Karlsson at #3C unless he substantially improves.

As for the universally recognized #1C, i think that's basically an elite C. You can be a top line quality scorer and folks around here will still call you a third liner. An elite C would be great but if they're not available a playmaker like Perreault would do wonders, I think.

 

[blahblah]

No, but I do think that of Gaborik, Horton, and Tortorella.

You don't like Torts, that has nothing to do with a lack of direction or a lack of substance. To suggest that Horton wasn't substantive is pretty silly; to say otherwise is hindsight based on something that no one saw coming. He was that top line right wing that we needed.

Gaborik was a deadline move, they happen. It will happen again.

I don't like some of these moves because of that apparent lack of direction, not the other way 'round.

As I said you don't like some of the moves. You are cherry picking a couple of moves you don't like and claiming a lack of direction. "I don't like this move, but I'll ignore the others".

The biggest failure of this regime was the Clarkson deal and that was a biggie. However, lack of direction? Please.

I'll tell you where this lack of direction thought process is coming from - we're losing. No one can define the lack of direction other than "Well whatever it is isn't working.".

 

[JohnnyJacket13]

I'm trying to figure out how we get substantially better in 2016-2017 without plugging Matthews into the lineup.

Jenner-Dubinsky-Atkinson
Saad-Wennberg-Foligno
Calvert-Karlsson-Rychel
Anderson-Chaput-Clarkson

Murray-Jones
Johnson-Savard
Werenski-Goloubef
Paliotta

Bob
Korpisalo

*Assumes the team dumps Tyutin, Hartnell, Boll, and Campbell and does not bring back Prout or Falk. And Clarkson isn't put on LTIR.

Looks crappy still.

I somewhat agree with you here. We are a few pieces away from actually being a solid team. Now, whether or not that translates to consistency is another thing.

In a perfect world, this is what the roster should look like (with xxx in place of pieces we need to draft/acquire/sign/develop)

Saad-xxx-xxx
Jenner-Wennberg-Atkinson
Hartnell-Dubinsky-Foligno
Rychel-Karlsson-Calvert
Boll/Clarkson/Campbell as dead weight

Murray-Jones
Johnson-Savard
xxx-Goloubef
Tyutin/Prout/Falk as dead weight

This is why it is extremely important to draft in the top-3 this season. One of those xxx's will be filled immediately and for the future with one of Matthews or the Finns. We really lack a skilled forward (or two) that can play top-line minutes AND produce against the oppositions best defenders. We also lack a solid bottom pairing on defense when healthy. Jarmo has plenty of work looking ahead to fix these holes with players that are not short-term bandages (ahem, Gregory Campbell).

 

[major major]

I somewhat agree with you here. We are a few pieces away from actually being a solid team. Now, whether or not that translates to consistency is another thing.

In a perfect world, this is what the roster should look like (with xxx in place of pieces we need to draft/acquire/sign/develop)

Saad-xxx-xxx
Jenner-Wennberg-Atkinson
Hartnell-Dubinsky-Foligno
Rychel-Karlsson-Calvert
Boll/Clarkson/Campbell as dead weight

Murray-Jones
Johnson-Savard
xxx-Goloubef
Tyutin/Prout/Falk as dead weight

This is why it is extremely important to draft in the top-3 this season. One of those xxx's will be filled immediately and for the future with one of Matthews or the Finns. We really lack a skilled forward (or two) that can play top-line minutes AND produce against the oppositions best defenders. We also lack a solid bottom pairing on defense when healthy. Jarmo has plenty of work looking ahead to fix these holes with players that are not short-term bandages (ahem, Gregory Campbell).

Well you did say "perfect world", so maybe I should leave it at that, but you also said "solid team" was the goal. You don't need Hartnell-Dubinsky-Foligno pushed down to third liners to be a solid team. Each of those guys is either a marginal top liner or a plus second liner, and the stats are crystal clear about this.

I'd also temper hopes about the top 3 in the draft. It's neither likely that we get a top 3 pick, nor is it that essential for next year- the Finns in particular aren't expected to be instant game changers.

 

[NotWendell]

I truly believe this goes back to the mysterious heart ailment that was proven to be no ailment at all. That was followed by "can't trade me now #probtho" I'm convinced there's more to that episode than we may ever know.

 

[blahblah]

I somewhat agree with you here. We are a few pieces away from actually being a solid team. Now, whether or not that translates to consistency is another thing.

In a perfect world, this is what the roster should look like (with xxx in place of pieces we need to draft/acquire/sign/develop)

Saad-xxx-xxx
Jenner-Wennberg-Atkinson
Hartnell-Dubinsky-Foligno
Rychel-Karlsson-Calvert
Boll/Clarkson/Campbell as dead weight

I just can't take a lineup seriously in which you have a 6 million dollar center as on your third line. Revise and repost. If Dubinsky is outside of your top six, have him traded. Seriously you have a 15+ million dollar 3rd line. You can't fund this unless those top line players are in kids and if they are they probably shouldn't be on the top line.

On a side note, what does this have to do with JK's performance?

 

[JacketsDavid]

I'm not sure why I'm going to continue this discussion but for the sake of argument here goes.

First off I think Joey was traded because for whatever reasons he went off the rails this season. Coming into the season and in the last off season I'm guessing moving him wasn't a priority. Getting Seth Jones for him was a good deal for the Jackets.

Secondly, the team was coming off a 15-1-1 finish and had one other really good run last year so everyone believed this was a good hockey team that wasn't in need of a major overhaul. Turns out everyone was wrong.

Third, teams don't trade #1 D or even potential #1 D very often. Because none were traded last off season I am going to guess none were available or the price was ridiculously high.

I believe the trade for Saad was, and still is, a good one. Anisimov never was spectacular here and at the time was superfluous, Dano is not a budding superstar based on this year's play and the rest of the guys were roster/salary dumps. A win for Jarmo.

You seem to believe it was just a matter of asking and we could have Doughty or Subban or Keith or their equivalent in a Jackets uniform. I think you are mistaken.

If he offered RyJo in offseason (before his meltdown) he could have gotten more for him. He could have traded a legit "1C" at relatively cheap contract.
At that point (in offseason) Jarmo convinced himself that this team could win with a bunch of forwards who could score goals, a goalie who is injury-prone and streaky, and a terrible blue line. He went to war with that. If he knew then that he needed a better blue line he would have made a deal from a position of strength, instead of waiting until he was proven to be wrong and sold from a position of weakness.

So it took Jarmo several seasons to figure out his plan wouldn't work. The coach got fired, the franchise player was traded, it's about time Jarmo's neck was on the line. His job is to get us players to help us win. Not a good scenario when you've been talking about "brick by brick" and suddenly you have to blow up the wall and start building a totally different looking wall.

 

[major major]

Not a good scenario when you've been talking about "brick by brick" and suddenly you have to blow up the wall and start building a totally different looking wall.

He swapped a brick you can't build your team around for a brick you can build around, without making the team worse. That's commendable. He didn't blow up the wall or build a new one.

 

[JacketsDavid]

He swapped a brick you can't build your team around for a brick you can build around, without making the team worse. That's commendable. He didn't blow up the wall or build a new one.

he took out his struggling franchise player and added in a younger hopeful franchise player - so I think that's changing the structure of the wall? if he (Jarmo/Mngt) was planning on making it a defense first team he didn't act on that in the off-season, he acted on it when the team failed and he had an unhappy RyJo to deal with.

Let's be honest RyJo's struggles had something to do with the relationship of management and him and his representation. I'm all about personal accountability and Ryan left a lot to be desired but the way the team treated him at best didn't help things and likely hurt things.

 

[major major]

he took out his struggling franchise player and added in a younger hopeful franchise player - so I think that's changing the structure of the wall? if he (Jarmo/Mngt) was planning on making it a defense first team he didn't act on that in the off-season, he acted on it when the team failed and he had an unhappy RyJo to deal with.

Let's be honest RyJo's struggles had something to do with the relationship of management and him and his representation. I'm all about personal accountability and Ryan left a lot to be desired but the way the team treated him at best didn't help things and likely hurt things.

I don't agree with any of this.

Jones wasn't more of a maybe than Joey. We've talked about this enough, but suffice it to say I'm positive the Preds took on the riskier asset.

The FO made a clear determination that they couldn't go for a megadeal with Joey and build the team around a bad brick like that. And if you've got a guy who's playing terribly because his feelings are hurt, that's all the more reason to ship him out.

 

[CBJx614]

I was a huge Joey supporter basically from the beginning. But I feel MUCH better about the future of this franchise building from the back out.

IMO Jones play has been absolutely TOP NOTCH since hes gotten here.

The hole created by Joey has also given Wennberg some more confidence as well. His hockey IQ/sense still just blows me away. If he can improve his F/O% and his shooting I really think the sky is the limit with him.

As much **** as Jarmo gets for the Horton fiasco, 2013 was an absolutely amazing draft for him. Wennberg and Rychel both have serious top 6 potential.

 

[We Want Ten]

I truly believe this goes back to the mysterious heart ailment that was proven to be no ailment at all. That was followed by "can't trade me now #probtho" I'm convinced there's more to that episode than we may ever know.

*cue x files theme.

I agree with you though.

 

[Crede777]

I truly believe this goes back to the mysterious heart ailment that was proven to be no ailment at all. That was followed by "can't trade me now #probtho" I'm convinced there's more to that episode than we may ever know.

Maybe.

My whole qualm with the situation has less to do with Johansen and Jones's abilities and more the FO's inability to deal with "problem children."

Lots of skilled, young players are going to have off-ice issues. I think management needs to learn how to deal with these issues in non-confrontational ways. Instead of just pawning off the issues onto someone else, it would be much better if we could keep talented players and actually fix mental problems. That would be a huge step forward for the franchise.