The Identity (Politics) of Leaf Fans (Not actual politics)

[rumman]

And it someone disagrees with you with substance, reason, evidence, and well thought out context you call them a "Dubas fanboy"? You might want to recalibrate.

What GMs have done a better job than Dubas the last five years? What bar are you holding him to? I am not saying that no one did a better job and I am not saying he was the best...I am glad we moved on, but what's the bar you are setting here. Name three GMs that did a better job between 2018 and 2023.

A forum is supposed to be a place for dialogue, not dialogue you want to hear, but I’ll make you a deal, I won’t respond to your posts and you do the same to mine……….

 

[conFABulator]

is the purpose of this title to express the ...

Exaggerated Polarized opinions of Dubas ?

otherwise you are conflating unrelated topics, NOT in a good way (using your words)

Yes, it about the polarized opinions of Dubas and how some people are so polarized one way or the other (support or against) that they lose the ability to demonstrate balanced perspectives on his moves and tenure.

The definition of "Identity Politics" is a tendency for people to form exclusive political alliances, moving away from traditional broad-based party politics.

My Rep/Dem example was simply pointing at some who believe Trump can do no wrong, while others believe he can do no right. The truth is always in the middle.

A forum is supposed to be a place for dialogue, not dialogue you want to hear, but I’ll make you a deal, I won’t respond to your posts and you do the same to mine……….

What about my posts suggest I am not open to dialogue? I asked you to explain your post, which was about me.

Why do we need this deal? I am up for discussion, just don't be surprised if I ask you to explain or support statements you make that I don't fully understand...a wise man once said a forum is supposed to be a place for dialogue.

 

[conFABulator]

I was okay with Dubas until he left the way he did. Now? Screw Dubas. I do hope his family is well.

Yeah. He was fired or not extended...he didn't quit. I didn't like the way he left either. I also think he made the worst possible career move going to Pitt. He can't win there unless they win a cup. That's not going to happen and he seems to be making it worse.

 

[conFABulator]

<opinion> no info provided </opinion>

Well my definition of a solid and strong hockey team would be a team that is consistently strong and solid in the standings. These are not effusive levels of praise, they are SOLID and STRONG.

I asked our impartial friends at ChatGPT who the best teams in the NHL were between 2018 and 2023 (Dubas' tenure) and it went

Tampa
Boston
Colorado
Florida
Carolina
Toronto

...with the following supporting thoughts:

Toronto Maple Leafs

Key Stats: A perennial regular-season contender, especially with the rise of stars like Auston Matthews.

Notable Seasons:

2020-21: Finished first in the North Division with 77 points in the shortened season.

2021-22 and 2022-23: Multiple 100+ point seasons, including franchise records for wins and points.

Regular-Season Achievements: Consistently near the top of the standings, though playoff success was elusive until 2023.

What is your definition of SOLID and STRONG

 

[conFABulator]

right back at you.

I don't really have a list
but I will answer any question that I ask of others...

Nylander re-sign
Muzzin acquisition
Campbell acquisition
Kapanen trade
Sandin trade
Drafting well without a lot of high picks (Sandin, Knies, Minten, Hildeby, Niemela, Robertson, Holmberg, DurZi, Grebenkin)
Extending Woll

What are yours?

 

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

If you want my political view in life I am a centralist. I vote for the party whose's agenda fits that best. Ferderally I have voted Maxists (Liberals) the last 2 elections due to our local MP being very good for our community.
As for Hockey it is never political. You use Dubas as an example of how polorizing the fanbase can be and I see it too. I see people saying they hate everything Dubas did while he was with Toronto. So you can take Nylander, Marner, Knies, Cowan, Minten, and any Russian drafted ro signed as a UFA out of the equation. Replace them with Nick Ritchie and Noah Hanifan. Tell me now how much you hate everything he did now.

Dubas over paid in trades at the deadline to try and have the team go in a deep playoff run. He was far too loyal to Keefe who should have been fired after losing to a Junior A coach in the Montreal series. He definately struggled to get the goaltending correct year after year. But he installed a system for drafting and development of talent. Everyone holds up Dallas as the standard for Drafting and development take a look at how many NHLers were Draft by Toronto from 2014 to today. Then add in the number of Free agent College or European Free agents they have signed who have played over 100 games. People will be very shocked that the Leafs lead the league in the number of players drafted who have played over 100 games. This is without including players like Holmberg, Woll, Robertson, Minten and Cowan. All players who will play 100 games in the NHL. So IF this team finally figures out how to win in the playoffs and has the depth to go to a stanley cup final fans really need to apprciate the ground work Dubas did to get there.

 

[conFABulator]

If you want my political view in life I am a centralist. I vote for the party whose's agenda fits that best. Ferderally I have voted Maxists (Liberals) the last 2 elections due to our local MP being very good for our community.
As for Hockey it is never political. You use Dubas as an example of how polorizing the fanbase can be and I see it too. I see people saying they hate everything Dubas did while he was with Toronto. So you can take Nylander, Marner, Knies, Cowan, Minten, and any Russian drafted ro signed as a UFA out of the equation. Replace them with Nick Ritchie and Noah Hanifan. Tell me now how much you hate everything he did now.

Dubas over paid in trades at the deadline to try and have the team go in a deep playoff run. He was far too loyal to Keefe who should have been fired after losing to a Junior A coach in the Montreal series. He definately struggled to get the goaltending correct year after year. But he installed a system for drafting and development of talent. Everyone holds up Dallas as the standard for Drafting and development take a look at how many NHLers were Draft by Toronto from 2014 to today. Then add in the number of Free agent College or European Free agents they have signed who have played over 100 games. People will be very shocked that the Leafs lead the league in the number of players drafted who have played over 100 games. This is without including players like Holmberg, Woll, Robertson, Minten and Cowan. All players who will play 100 games in the NHL. So IF this team finally figures out how to win in the playoffs and has the depth to go to a stanley cup final fans really need to apprciate the ground work Dubas did to get there.

Thanks for this. Great post

Do you think if Dubas wasn't fired he would have axed Keefe that off-season? I felt like Dubas was safe and Keefe had to go. I didn't feel confident Dubas would do it.

I was a bit disappointed that Dubas was fired, because it all but guaranteed Keefe was back and I felt a coaching change would have made a big difference last year.

 

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

Thanks for this. Great post

Do you think if Dubas wasn't fired he would have axed Keefe that off-season? I felt like Dubas was safe and Keefe had to go. I didn't feel confident Dubas would do it.

I was a bit disappointed that Dubas was fired, because it all but guaranteed Keefe was back and I felt a coaching change would have made a big difference last year.

I think Keefe was gone. In his last press conference as GM he talked indirectly a couple of times about the coaching that got lost after he was let go. He talked about how unprepared the team was to face Florida and how that cannot happen in the NHL. This is talking directly to the coaching staff. He said multiple times everything was on the table. I think he would have fired Keefe and traded one of Nylander or Marner. Lets not forget that Tree hired two former NHL head coaches last year. That was not by accident and they were not Keefe "guys". Guy Bouchard to run a power play???? Come on. Notice everytime someone really questions Keefe about the Powerplay he said talk to Guy as he does not run it. That is very passive aggressive from a person in charge. How cannot he not answer the questions as the HEAD coach? Did he close his eyes every powerplay? When they had meetings did he leave the room when they talked about the PP? He knew he was done all year he was just trying to position himself to get another job which he did well as he landed in NJ. He is a very good offensive coach. He is not a head coach. He was Dubas's biggest downfall.

 

[Goose]

Fair point, I fully agree that most fans are fans of the team and don't get caught up in this stuff.

Maybe you are right and it is less of an issue than I feel it is. It always surprises and disappoints me when an otherwise interesting and productive thread and discussion gets hijacked by the Dubas/anti-Dubas crowds.

It happens a surprising amount, though I really don't pay attention to the User Names maybe it is a vocal minority doing the hijacking damage.

Yeah, also there's some really weird media stuff with Dubas, where he has people in the Toronto media he's super tight with, who seem intent on vindicating his legacy, and it's created a weird factionalism that still lingers a bit, especially given Shanahan is still around.

I think it's a super small/vocal minority that actually cares about the whole thing, but they do get vocal. I'm very quick to block and my block list is probably over 50 now, pretty much all the loudest/most clickbaity/trollish, so I'm also maybe seeing less than others are.

 

[conFABulator]

Yeah, also there's some really weird media stuff with Dubas, where he has people in the Toronto media he's super tight with, who seem intent on vindicating his legacy, and it's created a weird factionalism that still lingers a bit, especially given Shanahan is still around.

I think it's a super small/vocal minority that actually cares about the whole thing, but they do get vocal. I'm very quick to block and my block list is probably over 50 now, pretty much all the loudest/most clickbaity/trollish, so I'm also maybe seeing less than others are.

You are right about the "weird media stuff" but isn't it also true that some members of the media had the same level of bias against him?

I don't know if that is correct, it is an actual question.

Again, does it feel a bit like Rep/Dem in the US and the Athletic are CNN? Who knows.

Thanks for the thoughtful input.

It a tricky topic, because we should look to the past and ask "what if?". We should want to learn from mistakes for sure. It feels like some are too consumed by the man at the helm in the recent past and I feel they are not interested in saying some was good and some was bad and they sit at either end of that spectrum and in my opinion this hurts the quality of discussion and debate.

 

[conFABulator]

I think Keefe was gone. In his last press conference as GM he talked indirectly a couple of times about the coaching that got lost after he was let go. He talked about how unprepared the team was to face Florida and how that cannot happen in the NHL. This is talking directly to the coaching staff. He said multiple times everything was on the table. I think he would have fired Keefe and traded one of Nylander or Marner. Lets not forget that Tree hired two former NHL head coaches last year. That was not by accident and they were not Keefe "guys". Guy Bouchard to run a power play???? Come on. Notice everytime someone really questions Keefe about the Powerplay he said talk to Guy as he does not run it. That is very passive aggressive from a person in charge. How cannot he not answer the questions as the HEAD coach? Did he close his eyes every powerplay? When they had meetings did he leave the room when they talked about the PP? He knew he was done all year he was just trying to position himself to get another job which he did well as he landed in NJ. He is a very good offensive coach. He is not a head coach. He was Dubas's biggest downfall.

Thanks, you're right his comments re coaching were pretty buried once he got fired.

That's a pretty simplified summary of his era, but I think you might be right. Coaching may have been the biggest downfall. I also think not course correcting once the pandemic hit us with a flat cap..though in fairness to him none of us knew how long that was going to last so how could he?

 

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

Yeah, also there's some really weird media stuff with Dubas, where he has people in the Toronto media he's super tight with, who seem intent on vindicating his legacy, and it's created a weird factionalism that still lingers a bit, especially given Shanahan is still around.

I think it's a super small/vocal minority that actually cares about the whole thing, but they do get vocal. I'm very quick to block and my block list is probably over 50 now, pretty much all the loudest/most clickbaity/trollish, so I'm also maybe seeing less than others are.

Shannahan has the same weird media stuff as well. Guys like Kyper and O neil are extremely tight with shanny. They are mouth pieces for him. Lets not all forget that its the Shannyplan and Not the Dubasplan. Things like Shannahan nixed an apparent trade of Knies to Chicago after Dubas got fired, yet true insiders at that trade deadline said that Dubas would not include Knies in any trade. Don't let anyone fool you Shanny controls the media around the Leafs.

 

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

Thanks, you're right his comments re coaching were pretty buried once he got fired.

That's a pretty simplified summary of his era, but I think you might be right. Coaching may have been the biggest downfall. I also think not course correcting once the pandemic hit us with a flat cap..though in fairness to him none of us knew how long that was going to last so how could he?

Coaching was 80% of the problem. It was the coles notes version of his time with the Leafs. This team will really feel the effects of his loss 5 to 7 years from now when the talent well goes dry. Tree is a below average GM.

Berube is just an average coach yet this team is going to be a 120 point team in the regular season and will be in the conference final. Remember where you heard it first.

 

[conFABulator]

Coaching was 80% of the problem. It was the coles notes version of his time with the Leafs. This team will really feel the effects of his loss 5 to 7 years from now when the talent well goes dry. Tree is a below average GM.

Berube is just an average coach yet this team is going to be a 120 point team in the regular season and will be in the conference final. Remember where you heard it first.

I am hoping to scaffolding around the GM in this organization can help Tre in a way that he wasn't in Calgary. Pridham seems very useful and valuable and the scouting and development departments seem solid too.

 

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

I am hoping to scaffolding around the GM in this organization can help Tre in a way that he wasn't in Calgary. Pridham seems very useful and valuable and the scouting and development departments seem solid too.

The biggest issues with Tree in Calgary was coach selection, team construction and trading away draft picks. He is good at drafting and development. I am surprised Pridham is still with the organization. Leafs need to pray he never leaves.

 

[rumman]

Honestly, what does Dubas have to do with identity politics / Rep/Demo ? I honestly have no idea. Did you mean politics and opinions are both POLARIZED ?


<opinion> no info provided </opinion>



right back at you.



is the purpose of this title to express the ...

Exaggerated Polarized opinions of Dubas ?

otherwise you are conflating unrelated topics, NOT in a good way (using your words)

The OP obviously wants to start arguments with those who don’t like what Dubas did here. FULL STOP……..

Coaching was 80% of the problem. It was the coles notes version of his time with the Leafs. This team will really feel the effects of his loss 5 to 7 years from now when the talent well goes dry. Tree is a below average GM.

Berube is just an average coach yet this team is going to be a 120 point team in the regular season and will be in the conference final. Remember where you heard it first.

Who hired the coach?

 

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

The OP obviously wants to start arguments with those who don’t like what Dubas did here. FULL STOP……..


Who hired the coach?

Which one? Keefe was Dubas. Berube was Shannahan.

 

[rumman]

Which one? Keefe was Dubas. Berube was Shannahan.

Which one do you think I was referring to?

 

[Enniskillen]

You are much more efficient than me, it only took you a half a sentence to let us know you are a Dubas hater.

Go ahead and deny it, but re-read my post and tell me what about it makes me a so-called "Dubas fanboy"? Not hating him? Saying he led us to disappointment and missed expectations? I said those exact things in the post you responded to. I also said I agreed with letting him go.

Anyone who doesn't hate him is a "fanboy"? Do you see my parallel to the US and the Democrat/Republican identity politics now?

What makes me a "fanboy" exactly?


I got on board with the JT signing, what choice did we have? I remember feeling like it was a bit early also.

I do think that strategy could have played out differently if the cap hadn't gone Covid-flat.

You used caps lock too much exaggerating that he built a team. So bias is obvious. Moreover, stop dragging us in a quagmire of the US politics by making these needless and irrelevant comparisons on the sports related forum. It’s kind of silly. People come here to talk about hockey, not Rep/Dem bs.

 

[Gabriel426]

ultimately the biggest mistake of Dubas was rushing the rebuild with acquired UFA John Tavares.
it was his first decision.

I didn't support it. In my mind, you don't add finishing pieces until you know what you have.

Something that is obvious now, but I didn't appreciate at the time is .... YOU NEED to lock up the core before adding expensive pieces.

That’s hindsight though.
If Leafs won a Cup or two the past 8yrs, JT’s signing would had been great.

To me I think the mistake was doubling and tripling down on advanced stats instead of using advanced stats as one of the tools to build a Cup winning team.
Dubas was so in love with proving to the NHL that he is the smartest person in the room with his ideas that by the time he realized his ideas/visions sucks, it was too late for him to change course way too late.
That’s also lead to the belief that his top guys were just unlucky in playoffs as the stats were all there if only they get bounces….instead of admitting the top guys might not be guys who can get the job done collectively.

 

[Goose]

Shannahan has the same weird media stuff as well. Guys like Kyper and O neil are extremely tight with shanny. They are mouth pieces for him. Lets not all forget that its the Shannyplan and Not the Dubasplan. Things like Shannahan nixed an apparent trade of Knies to Chicago after Dubas got fired, yet true insiders at that trade deadline said that Dubas would not include Knies in any trade. Don't let anyone fool you Shanny controls the media around the Leafs.

Yeah, I'm not taking sides or have a real opinion, I'm not in either camp (Shanny/Dubas), nor do I hold strong feelings positive or negative about either.

I'm one of the few on here that don't have a huge issue with how top-heavy this team is, I see it as a risk/reward strategy that so far has been coming up 7s.

I'm a huge believer that luck has a lot to do with NHL success, and all you can do is build a roster that can theoretically compete and hope it works out, and if you succeed you get the credit, and if you fail (which you're going to literally 95% of the time) you're going to get shat on, no matter what you did really.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Tre is looking pretty good so far

 

[MilkofthePoppy]

sorry bro

View attachment 918613

I have never been turned into a meme before. I am eternally grateful to you.

 

[conFABulator]

That’s hindsight though.
If Leafs won a Cup or two the past 8yrs, JT’s signing would had been great.

To me I think the mistake was doubling and tripling down on advanced stats instead of using advanced stats as one of the tools to build a Cup winning team.
Dubas was so in love with proving to the NHL that he is the smartest person in the room with his ideas that by the time he realized his ideas/visions sucks, it was too late for him to change course way too late.
That’s also lead to the belief that his top guys were just unlucky in playoffs as the stats were all there if only they get bounces….instead of admitting the top guys might not be guys who can get the job done collectively.

That's interesting, what are examples of doubling and tripling down on advanced stats? I know we didn't have a bunch of big dmen or even enough high end dmen and maybe we ran too long with Sandin and Liljegren?

Obviously Malgin for Marchment is one, but NO ONE saw Marchment coming at that level, also not sure I would want him on our roster at his $4.5M cap hit. Regardless, Malgin was nothing and I can't imagine advanced stats made a case for him.

Kerfoot may have been one? That cap and ice time could have been invested better.

 

[conFABulator]

You used caps lock too much exaggerating that he built a team. So bias is obvious. Moreover, stop dragging us in a quagmire of the US politics by making these needless and irrelevant comparisons on the sports related forum. It’s kind of silly. People come here to talk about hockey, not Rep/Dem bs.

There is actually no pulling anyone into US politics and I even changed the title to be sure.

Identity politics is a term. It has to do with once you declare you support something you fully support it and only support it. I thought some people might not be familiar with the concept so I used a current example that people would be familiar with; some people think Trump can do no wrong and others believe he can do no right. The truth is on the middle, as it almost always is. Reading this thread I would suggest for some this is an apt analogy.

As for Dubas not having built a team...can you expand on this? I mean he was GM for five years, how long does a GM have to be at the helm to get credit? How many contracts does he have to renew? It's a serious question. He seems to have been their long enough to get blame form many. What's the "build" threshold? Who built these Maple Leafs?