Blue Jays Discussion: The Good-bye Loup Version

[kb]

You’d have to give up more and who would have you gone after instead?

Norris was a top-15/20 prospect. Plus they added Boyd. So target a pitcher on a non-contending club that had a younger established arm with more than the current year of control left.

 

[canucksfan]

Norris was a top-15/20 prospect. Plus they added Boyd. So target a pitcher on a non-contending club that had a younger established arm with more than the current year of control left.

Who though? Rentals are much easier to get than controllable arms.

 

[kb]

Who though? Rentals are much easier to get than controllable arms.

Not when you are giving longer controllable arms.

 

[canucksfan]

Not when you are giving longer controllable arms.

Instead of Price and Tulo who would you have gone after?

 

[Clark4Ever]

The days when we had Olerud, Mosby, Fernandez, Garcia, Bell, Gruber, Kent, Hinke, Ward, Alomar, White, Stieb, Clancy, Carter, Fielder, McGriff, Barfield, Hentgen, Key, Delgado. We either drafted them or traded for them early in their careers. Those were the days when our front office was competent and could assess talent. They knew the key to having a great franchise was building for today while keeping an eye on tomorrow. Pat Gillick one of the greatest GM's in the history of ball.

It seemed like when one guy left , another guy came in right after him. I'm sure my memory is foggy but we had Mcgriff, Fielder, Olerud , Delgado in succession, that IMO is a pretty dang good string of 1B men.

For 2B we had Garcia, Kent (traded to NYM) and Alomar.

I think Shatkins is going to return this team the glory days of the late 80's early 90's, where we are always considered a playoff contender.

Well said, although the major philisophical difference thus far between Gillick and Shatkins is that Gillick demonstrated on many occasions that he was also willing to take risks via trade and free agency when necessary to improve the club.

I am willing to give the current regime the benefit of the doubt in that they are rightfully trying to re-stock the prospect pool. I just hope that if/when the team is a contender again under their stewardship, they will not shy away from taking risks when the situation calls for it.

 

[kb]

Instead of Price and Tulo who would you have gone after?

I'll use an example from this year.....something like the Chris Archer deal to the Pirates.

 

[canucksfan]

I'll use an example from this year.....something like the Chris Archer deal to the Pirates.

If you can't name anyone then maybe no one was available like a Chris Archer.

 

[kb]

If you can't name anyone then maybe no one was available like a Chris Archer.

If you give up big name prospects, a player who might not otherwise be available can become available.

 

[canucksfan]

If you give up big name prospects, a player who might not otherwise be available can become available.

Controllable young pitchers are very hard to get. The price for David Price was set. It would have than more to get a controllable young piece. Since you can't name one I will take it that none were really available.

 

[kb]

Controllable young pitchers are very hard to get. The price for David Price was set. It would have than more to get a controllable young piece. Since you can't name one I will take it that none were really available.

LOL. OK. Or maybe AA didn't think to explore that avenue and fell in love with the name recognition.

To expand on my previous point, no one thought Chris Archer was available - until the trade happened.

 

[canucksfan]

LOL. OK. Or maybe AA didn't think to explore that avenue and fell in love with the name recognition.

To expand on my previous point, no one thought Chris Archer was available - until the trade happened.

Not true. Archer has been mentioned all year. Here's one from June Chris Archer a valuable chip in 'weak' market

 

[kb]

Not true. Archer has been mentioned all year. Here's one from June Chris Archer a valuable chip in 'weak' market

Not all players potentially available are in the rumour mill was my point. And the trade for a pitcher with control was made.

I stand corrected on rumours of Archer's availability.

 

[Nineteen67]

The Indians starters went 1. Kluber 2. Tomlin 3. Bauer (1st inning) 4. Kluber (on 3 days rest) 5. Merritt

Losing 3-1 in those last four games because the offence couldn’t feast on bad stuff is the biggest reason why they didn’t make the WS, not the Indians late inning options.

When the starters only have to pitch 4+ innings it makes that team tough to beat. The Jays knew it, everyone knew it.

The Jays won the WC because they made hay on the backend of most rotations and they won the season series 12-7 against the Yankees.

 

[Eyedea]

When the starters only have to pitch 4+ innings it makes that team tough to beat. The Jays knew it, everyone knew it.

The Jays won the WC because they made hay on the backend of most rotations and they won the season series 12-7 against the Yankees.

Show your work

 

[canucksfan]

Not all players potentially available are in the rumour mill was my point. And the trade for a pitcher with control was made.

I stand corrected on rumours of Archer's availability.

That's true, not all players available are made known to the public. However, no one could have been available. You haven't mentioned anyone. Furthermore, the price for a controllable younger piece would have been more. See the difference between Happ and Archer.

As it stands now, the players AA traded only Syndergaard has made a large impact at the MLB level. When we look at the moves he made in 2015 including the JD trade really no one has made an impact yet. Barreto is the only prospect that still looks promising. His trades didn't really gut the system. Instead, his trades allowed a team that was aging to compete.

 

[kb]

That's true, not all players available are made known to the public. However, no one could have been available. You haven't mentioned anyone. Furthermore, the price for a controllable younger piece would have been more. See the difference between Happ and Archer.

As it stands now, the players AA traded only Syndergaard has made a large impact at the MLB level. When we look at the moves he made in 2015 including the JD trade really no one has made an impact yet. Barreto is the only prospect that still looks promising. His trades didn't really gut the system. Instead, his trades allowed a team that was aging to compete.

At the expense of the next decade.

 

[canucksfan]

At the expense of the next decade.

Explain

 

[kb]

Prospect capital. We have already gone over this. Just because most of the parts got injured, doesn't mean they weren't valuable at the time, nor does it mean the same thing happens to them if they stay.

 

[canucksfan]

Prospect capital. We have already gone over this. Just because most of the parts got injured, doesn't mean they weren't valuable at the time, nor does it mean the same thing happens to them if they stay.

You are grasping at straws to support your argument. Out of all the prospects AA traded only Syndergaard was a major loss. The rest seem to be busts or small pieces. Again, trading for young controllable players is not easy. You have to give up a lot.

The 'expense of the next decade' is just a silly comment. Jays competed in 2016. That would mean they won't compete until 2026. They will be ready in 2020 to compete. Next year we will see Jansen, SRF, Vlad and Borucki with the team. All players that were brought in under AA.

AA didn't leave the system in good shape when he left. Mostly, the reason being because the drafting wasn't that good. However, the trades he made were worth it for the two years of the ALCS.

 

[IceColdBear]

Does anyone watch over 130 regular season games even when the Jays suck?

There's so many games and it takes up so much time, I can't imagine investing all that time into a crap team.

I like watching baseball, but not that much.

I've probably watched about 25 games so far this year, and will likely only make sure to watch most of the games when Borucki starts from here on out, and otherwise just tune in when I've nothing else to do.

 

[Nineteen67]

Show your work

Ha ha I’m not looking through all that. I do know they won 89 games and 12 of those were against the Yankees.

 

[Eyedea]

You are grasping at straws to support your argument. Out of all the prospects AA traded only Syndergaard was a major loss. The rest seem to be busts or small pieces. Again, trading for young controllable players is not easy. You have to give up a lot.

The 'expense of the next decade' is just a silly comment. Jays competed in 2016. That would mean they won't compete until 2026. They will be ready in 2020 to compete. Next year we will see Jansen, SRF, Vlad and Borucki with the team. All players that were brought in under AA.

AA didn't leave the system in good shape when he left. Mostly, the reason being because the drafting wasn't that good. However, the trades he made were worth it for the two years of the ALCS.

Not really, he's right. Just because they busted after doesn't mean AA fully utilized their prospect surplus value. In fact, we know he didn't for Hoffman and Castro because he attached Reyes' 66m.

 

[Nineteen67]

Does anyone watch over 130 regular season games even when the Jays suck?

There's so many games and it takes up so much time, I can't imagine investing all that time into a crap team.

I like watching baseball, but not that much.

I've probably watched about 25 games so far this year, and will likely only make sure to watch most of the games when Borucki starts from here on out, and otherwise just tune in when I've nothing else to do.

On the weekends I do.
Saturday I like to DVR and watch in the evening while grilling.
Sunday I prefer to listen to the radio broadcast on the mlb app if I’m mowing the yards.

 

[kb]

You are grasping at straws to support your argument. Out of all the prospects AA traded only Syndergaard was a major loss. The rest seem to be busts or small pieces. Again, trading for young controllable players is not easy. You have to give up a lot.

The 'expense of the next decade' is just a silly comment. Jays competed in 2016. That would mean they won't compete until 2026. They will be ready in 2020 to compete. Next year we will see Jansen, SRF, Vlad and Borucki with the team. All players that were brought in under AA.

AA didn't leave the system in good shape when he left. Mostly, the reason being because the drafting wasn't that good. However, the trades he made were worth it for the two years of the ALCS.

To you, not to me. It was a pointless endeavour because in my opinion, I really didn't think they had a good enough team to go all the way at the time. Of course, in hindsight, time has proven me 100% correct. They won nothing. It was a waste of assets by not keeping what they had and trading off to replenish the system. They could have been competing this year with a young club had they done the smart move and cashed in their aging chips instead of going all in.

The words you fail to understand is I am talking about "AT THE TIME", which back then those prospects were legitimate, and had value. Now yes, in hindsight, a lot have fallen by the wayside, mostly to injury. But that prospect value was completely squandered, and now there is absolutely nothing to show for either the players they acquired, or the prospects they traded. Playoffs, whoopie!!! Then out.

Let's be honest here.....there is no way they are competing in 2020. None. What, all the rookies they will have to field in 2020 will suddenly play like seasoned vets? That's a ridiculous assumption. Do they have enough top end talent right now in the system to field a competitive team that soon? Hell no. Jansen wont play much until 2020 because of Martin, and he needs his bat to play up because his D and arm aren't elite. Plus two mid/back of the rotation starters. These are not messiahs leading them to the promised land in 2020. Basically very little to work with outside of Vladdy at the outset.

 

[TF97]

Does anyone watch over 130 regular season games even when the Jays suck?

There's so many games and it takes up so much time, I can't imagine investing all that time into a crap team.

I like watching baseball, but not that much.

I've probably watched about 25 games so far this year, and will likely only make sure to watch most of the games when Borucki starts from here on out, and otherwise just tune in when I've nothing else to do.

I’ll watch the Blue Jays games whenever I can, ideally I’d watch all 162.

It’s baseball, I don’t care how bad the team is, I will watch them.