The Erik "Gudzilla" Gudbranson Thread

[mpp9]

Yeah, I've wanted us to move past the overpaying journeyman/average D to fill out our roster and just devote the cap space to acquiring one more quality D and lean on them.

Muzzin, Doughty, Voynov. Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson.

Letang, Dumoulin, XXX?

Spending another 4 mil on a bottom pairing guy after committing to a borderline guy in Maatta and a highly questionable defender in JJ is still dumb. But I hope it works out for now.

I'd still blow up the D this summer and find a quality guy moving Kessel. Schultz is a UFA in less than a year and a half. And I really don't want to pay that guy market value.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

When do you remember Reaves running anyone in response to a cheap hit? Mostly I remember him politely challenging them to fight, them more often than not saying no thank you, and him saying 'ok then'.

I also remember the entire Winnipeg team quiet as could be when we had Reaves. The only time I can ever recall them just playing hockey against us without engaging in excessive nonsense. Usually Geno has to fight or something equally ridiculous.

Reaves was a deterrent. I don't love having roster spots spent on enforcers, but in that case, it worked. No one wants Reaves coming after them.

 

[JRS91]

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but I think the reasoning behind why they got Gudbranson is like this.

Rutherford has been obsessed with protecting Crosby and Malkin since he became the Penguins GM. First it was Steve Downie. Then from the beginning of the 2015 season to the end of the 2017 season the Penguins didn't have a designated "deterrent" and managed to win two Stanley Cups. Then the Penguins tried Reaves, Sullivan deployed him in the wrong situations and the Penguins shipped him out to Las Vegas.

I feel the Penguins then leaned on Oleksiak, who was willing, but just unable to fit the role they wanted him to. Just because someone's big, doesn't mean they can fight. Rutherford built up Tom Wilson "avoiding" Oleksiak during the playoffs and sure enough once they finally fought, Wilson almost knocked him out. He was traded not too long after that; I think it was a week or two later. Now enter Erik Gudbranson. Who's by no means a top fighter, there's very few heavyweights in the NHL and the Penguins traded the best one. That said, Gudbranson is slightly more effective at the role than Oleksiak was or at least more willing. The problem is, they don't need that kind of player, they never did and if they felt they did, why the heck did they trade the best in the NHL?

 

[The Old Master]

I also remember the entire Winnipeg team quiet as could be when we had Reaves. The only time I can ever recall them just playing hockey against us without engaging in excessive nonsense. Usually Geno has to fight or something equally ridiculous.

Reaves was a deterrent. I don't love having roster spots spent on enforcers, but in that case, it worked. No one wants Reaves coming after them.

remember hearing stories about reaves grabbing guys and pulling them off the bench to pound them. he never did anything like that here, so I'm thinking the coach had him reined in some.

 

[Pens1566]

To be perfectly fair to Oleksiak, Wilson would likely have the same outcome against Gudbranson in a similar scenario. He practically jumped him. Wilson knew what he was doing from across the rink. Rig didn't know it was coming until too late.

 

[JRS91]

To be perfectly fair to Oleksiak, Wilson would likely have the same outcome against Gudbranson in a similar scenario. He practically jumped him. Wilson knew what he was doing from across the rink. Rig didn't know it was coming until too late.

I just don't think he's that great of a fighter.

He's got size, that's about it. He shouldn't have been forced into that role. He had 8 fights as a Penguin and almost every win was against guys who don't typically fight. His fight against Chara and Wilson were pretty decisive losses. He barely edged out Simmonds who to his advantage is smaller but a good fighter. That was about as good as he's looked in a fight against someone who can actually fight. I'm not saying he's terrible, he's not Hal Gill. He still shouldn't have been counted on to be that guy though.

 

[Multigrain]

As long as he is not Mark Boro 2.0 from Ottawa coaches pet that was the "enforcer" but was the most difficult partner for anyone to play with.

 

[Pens1566]

I just don't think he's that great of a fighter.

He's got size, that's about it. He shouldn't have been forced into that role. He had 8 fights as a Penguin and almost every win was against guys who don't typically fight. His fight against Chara and Wilson were pretty decisive losses. He barely edged out Simmonds who to his advantage is smaller but a good fighter. That was about as good as he's looked in a fight against someone who can actually fight. I'm not saying he's terrible, he's not Hal Gill. He still shouldn't have been counted on to be that guy though.

I agree. I don't think he was great, or even good. But a guy that's 6'7 will generally be able to make up for technical deficiencies on sheer size alone. My point was that he got jumped by a decent fighter that didn't give up much in the size department to begin with. Very few "heavyweights" in the league would have been able to deliver a different outcome on that one. Certainly not Gudbranson.

 

[Riptide]

Do you consider Jensen a top four D? Kempny, Hainsey, Schultz, etc.

Schultz yes. Hainsey not this season (I think age has just started to catch up to him). Jensen has apparently played at that level this year, however it's the first time he's done so, and like Kempny I've seen very few of his games to say much about it other than to look at the stats.

Would I have given Jensen the contract he got vs having JJ? Absolutely. Even the pair of them (Jensen and Kempny) at their price would be much better then having JJ/Gudbranson based on their stats and more importantly their contracts. Maatta has been much better then both when you look at their entire career's.

I'd still blow up the D this summer and find a quality guy moving Kessel. Schultz is a UFA in less than a year and a half. And I really don't want to pay that guy market value.

The good news about Schultz is that his "market value" likely won't be much more expensive then what he's already getting. Especially if he can't put up 40/50 points.

 

[JRS91]

I agree. I don't think he was great, or even good. But a guy that's 6'7 will generally be able to make up for technical deficiencies on sheer size alone. My point was that he got jumped by a decent fighter that didn't give up much in the size department to begin with. Very few "heavyweights" in the league would have been able to deliver a different outcome on that one. Certainly not Gudbranson.

Gudbranson has been in more fights, 27 compared to 18. Then again he's been in the league 8 years compared to 6 years for Oleksiak.

Gudbranson doesn't fight much lately, he's only been in 10 fights since 2015, but most of his fights are pretty decisive wins. He's fought Haley, Wilson, Martin with pretty a pretty good win percentage. I'm not disagreeing though, I do think if Wilson caught Gudbranson like he did Oleksiak the results would be similar. I just think Gudbranson is more apt to the role the Penguins want him to have, unfortunately as of late he's been a worse player than Oleksiak. Even in Florida his analytics weren't good, but they weren't awful. Hopefully he can be closer to the guy he was in Florida than Vancouver.

 

[Riptide]

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but I think the reasoning behind why they got Gudbranson is like this.

Rutherford has been obsessed with protecting Crosby and Malkin since he became the Penguins GM. First it was Steve Downie. Then from the beginning of the 2015 season to the end of the 2017 season the Penguins didn't have a designated "deterrent" and managed to win two Stanley Cups. Then the Penguins tried Reaves, Sullivan deployed him in the wrong situations and the Penguins shipped him out to Las Vegas.

The problem is, they don't need that kind of player, they never did and if they felt they did, why the heck did they trade the best in the NHL?

That's debateable. If you look at some of the games played when Reaves was here, it appears that there were some benefits to having him in the lineup even if he wasn't fighting nightly. Do I think it's a pure "need" ? Not exactly, but I do think it's a "want", and personally after seeing the shit and abuse that Crosby and Malkin put up with vs what they didn't put up with when RR was here, I do want one of these players in the lineup. I don't think the blueline is the place for such a player unless they're actually very capable players (which I don't think EG is at this point).

As for why they traded Reaves, pretty simple. A) he was a pending UFA about to get a raise (1.125m to 2.77m) and we were a cap team with our own cap issues and B) because Sullivan wasn't playing him enough to justify the expense he was going to cost to retain.

 

[JRS91]

That's debateable. If you look at some of the games played when Reaves was here, it appears that there were some benefits to having him in the lineup even if he wasn't fighting nightly. Do I think it's a pure "need" ? Not exactly, but I do think it's a "want", and personally after seeing the **** and abuse that Crosby and Malkin put up with vs what they didn't put up with when RR was here, I do want one of these players in the lineup. I don't think the blueline is the place for such a player unless they're actually very capable players (which I don't think EG is at this point).

As for why they traded Reaves, pretty simple. A) he was a pending UFA about to get a raise (1.125m to 2.77m) and we were a cap team with our own cap issues and B) because Sullivan wasn't playing him enough to justify the expense he was going to cost to retain.

That's fair. Don't get me wrong, I loved when Reaves was here.

I just think it's not necessarily something we need. I'd personally rather have Reaves than Garrett Wilson as an everyday player. Not that I think Wilson has been bad, he's been decent, just unproductive. Reaves has always been a decent fourth line player, defensively responsible, and physical. I just think with all the intangibles they're saying about Gudbranson, Reaves brought as well. I'd much rather have Reaves making $2.2M (I think the Penguins could've agreed to a lower cap hit) here than Gudbranson making $4M here, given the way we play and how fast other teams are now, having a slow moving defenseman just seems like a bad idea given the NHL's current climate.

 

[Gurglesons]

Schultz yes. Hainsey not this season (I think age has just started to catch up to him). Jensen has apparently played at that level this year, however it's the first time he's done so, and like Kempny I've seen very few of his games to say much about it other than to look at the stats.

Would I have given Jensen the contract he got vs having JJ? Absolutely. Even the pair of them (Jensen and Kempny) at their price would be much better then having JJ/Gudbranson based on their stats and more importantly their contracts. Maatta has been much better then both when you look at their entire career's.



The good news about Schultz is that his "market value" likely won't be much more expensive then what he's already getting. Especially if he can't put up 40/50 points.

Schultz yes. Hainsey not this season (I think age has just started to catch up to him). Jensen has apparently played at that level this year, however it's the first time he's done so, and like Kempny I've seen very few of his games to say much about it other than to look at the stats.

Would I have given Jensen the contract he got vs having JJ? Absolutely. Even the pair of them (Jensen and Kempny) at their price would be much better then having JJ/Gudbranson based on their stats and more importantly their contracts. Maatta has been much better then both when you look at their entire career's.



The good news about Schultz is that his "market value" likely won't be much more expensive then what he's already getting. Especially if he can't put up 40/50 points.

My main point is that all of those D costed a 2nd or a 3rd.

 

[Terrapin]

We never needed enforcers to begin with. We won two cups on speed and skill and never should have gotten away from that. JR during that two year run never would have acquired the likes of Gudbranson, Oleksiak, Bjugstad, etc. It was all about speed and skill.

You're consider Bjugstad an enforcer?

Let's be honest. there are 2 ways to be successful. a.) being great at one particular thing, or b.) being good at multiple things.

The problem with option 'a' is, eventually teams will find ways to defend it. Teams eventually figured out NJ's trap. In football, teams eventually were able to slow the 'greatest show on turf'. So the truly great teams, sustained great teams, are the ones that can beat you in a variety of ways. the Caps last year could skate, had skill, and were physical as hell. In football, the Patriots can beat you running the ball, throwing the ball, in shootouts, or defensive battles.

We were great at one thing, speed and skill. It was awesome. But teams realized that the way to beat small and fast guys, was with big and fast guys. They found ways to slow us down by clutching and grabbing, and some of our guys have inevitably gotten older, and/or traded.

As a team, coach, or GM, you have to constantly adjust to what other teams are doing. Nothing is going to work forever. So yeah, I think GMJR's ultimate goal was to get bigger and more physical. Not necessarily slower, but replacing guys like Connor Sheary with someone like McCann or ZAR. Unfortunately, a lot of the guys brought in didn't pan out.

 

[Riptide]

My main point is that all of those D costed a 2nd or a 3rd.

Vs what? Gudbranson cost us effectively a 3rd (that's what Hagelin was moved for). And Jensen cost a lot more than just a 2nd. Washington moved Bowey for him as well in that deal.

And for all the deals like Kempny there's plenty that do not work out. Oleksiak is one of many such examples.

 

[madinsomniac]

Meh if there is one thing ive learned through the years is that guys who are big and physical have perceived value to teams even if they are a statistically putrid dump.... if he works out great... if he iscrappy trade him for whatever...

 

[Turin]

Meh if there is one thing ive learned through the years is that guys who are big and physical have perceived value to teams even if they are a statistically putrid dump.... if he works out great... if he iscrappy trade him for whatever...

I agree but the problem is when your GM is the hypothetical and likely stupid GM that’s supposed to make your GMs job easier

 

[Pancakes]

You're consider Bjugstad an enforcer?

Let's be honest. there are 2 ways to be successful. a.) being great at one particular thing, or b.) being good at multiple things.

The problem with option 'a' is, eventually teams will find ways to defend it. Teams eventually figured out NJ's trap. In football, teams eventually were able to slow the 'greatest show on turf'. So the truly great teams, sustained great teams, are the ones that can beat you in a variety of ways. the Caps last year could skate, had skill, and were physical as hell. In football, the Patriots can beat you running the ball, throwing the ball, in shootouts, or defensive battles.

We were great at one thing, speed and skill. It was awesome. But teams realized that the way to beat small and fast guys, was with big and fast guys. They found ways to slow us down by clutching and grabbing, and some of our guys have inevitably gotten older, and/or traded.

As a team, coach, or GM, you have to constantly adjust to what other teams are doing. Nothing is going to work forever. So yeah, I think GMJR's ultimate goal was to get bigger and more physical. Not necessarily slower, but replacing guys like Connor Sheary with someone like McCann or ZAR. Unfortunately, a lot of the guys brought in didn't pan out.

No, I consider Bjugstad big and kinda slow. I mean I guess he's an ok skater for his size, but he wouldn't fit on the old Pens teams.

I'm not sure I agree that we needed to adjust. We could have stayed true to speed and retooled around that by continuing to get younger and faster.

 

[Riptide]

I agree but the problem is when your GM is the hypothetical and likely stupid GM that’s supposed to make your GMs job easier

While I hear what you're saying, I don't think there would be a shortage of GMs willing to take Gudbranson off our hands. Nor do I think we'd be taking back a unwelcomed contract to do so.

 

[Riptide]

No, I consider Bjugstad big and kinda slow. I mean I guess he's an ok skater for his size, but he wouldn't fit on the old Pens teams.

I'm not sure I agree that we needed to adjust. We could have stayed true to speed and retooled around that by continuing to get younger and faster.

Like Bonino did? Or Maatta? Or Hornqvist? Or Kunitz? Or Hainsey? Most of those guys played some pretty important roles for us in our cup wins and none of them are a better/faster skater then Bjugstad.

 

[Night Shift]

Playing a physical brand of hockey is a mindset and maybe teams like CBJ and Philly can do it very well because its a team philosophy. The Pens are not that team and I think that is why plugging "one" guy to try to stop teams like the former hardly works. If the Pens really want to be those teams, obviously they have to change their whole team philosophy but having to gut most of the roster to do that. It isn't worth it, they should stay who they are.

 

[pistolpete11]

The worst part about Reaves when he was in Pittsburgh was that he played on a like with Rowney and Kuhn. I don't consider any of them that bad of players, but it would be tough to build a worse line. If he was on a 4th line with say Cullen and Simon/Blueger, I think he would have been perfectly fine and served his purpose.

The second worse part was that Sully reigned him in a little too much.

 

[Turin]

While I hear what you're saying, I don't think there would be a shortage of GMs willing to take Gudbranson off our hands. Nor do I think we'd be taking back a unwelcomed contract to do so.

That’s what I’m sayin. There’s a ton of dumb GMs out there and apparently ours isn’t smart enough to bank on him wanting to get rid of one of these two.

 

[Pancakes]

Like Bonino did? Or Maatta? Or Hornqvist? Or Kunitz? Or Hainsey? Most of those guys played some pretty important roles for us in our cup wins and none of them are a better/faster skater then Bjugstad.

Kunitz and Hornqvist then were faster than Bjugstad is now imo, but that's a good point.

My problem with adding slower players like Bjugstad, Gudbranson, JJ etc now is that some of our existing players also seem to have gotten slower. Malkin is slow now. Maybe it's injuries/fatigue/whatever, or maybe that's just what Geno is now. Hornqvist was never a burner and may be a little slower now than he was two years ago. Kessel looks slower this year. Cullen is obviously slower than he used to be even with his skating ability.

So you've got some slower core players who may have lost a step, and I think the best way to support those guys moving forward is with youth and speed.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

I didn't see any demonstrable difference in the players getting "jumped" or injured with/without Reaves. Just saying it doesn't make it true, just like me saying it didn't happen doesn't make it true. It really wasn't a large enough sample size to tell one way or the other even if you did provide data, which you haven't.

As for Pettersson, fair enough. Agree he's the best fit for Gudbranson for now. My point was I'd prefer to not have Gudbranson at all and pair MP with Schultz.

Go back and rewatch the years then because this isn’t even a debate. I have been a season ticket holder since the Lemieux days and I saw every game live or on TV for pre-Reaves and after and it was a big decrease in players taking liberties. I am not going to go look up stats from those games but it was night and day difference and if you didn’t notice it then I doubt you watched those games. At the beginning of the year a few players tested what would happen and then Reaves showed them and then it just went away. After the game with the 3 fights it just stopped happening.

I am not saying Gudbranson will be the same deterrent but he has a chance to be. He literally broke Hamonic’s face this year and when someone can do that to you then you think twice on taking liberties to Pens players if you know you might miss time with injuries. Bottom line is I rather have Gudbranson doing that then players like Crosby and Letang. We saw how that went. Do I wish that cap hit was at least half that amount? Yes but it is what it is.

Overall Pens really don’t have many bad contracts so paying a few players too much will be fine. When we are paying such low cap hits for our stars compared to the other teams that are resigning star players we have a nice advantage. Look at the Leafs and the amount they are paying Mathews and Tavares. Marner is going to cost just as much. People talk about Johnson’s contract being a bad cap hit at $3.25 million a year but he has played top 4 minutes all year and with Dumoulin-Letang out Johnson-Schultz has done a nice job holding down top pairing minutes. For $3.25 million that is cheap. Now in those last couple years it might be bad but by then our Cup window will be nearing its end. Also 3 years from now that will be bottom pairing prices the way Cap goes up and new money brought in from Seattle.

Gudbranson was decent for the Panthers in his years with them so I will wait and see how he fits with us. You never know with any player how they will work out even when they are good players like Perron and Brassard who just didn’t work out. Perron is still a productive player now with the Blues but didn’t fit with us. Then you get guys like Schultz who blossomed here after everyone saying he was the worst defenseman in the NHL. I will reserve judgment on this deal until after the season.