The Erik "Gudzilla" Gudbranson Thread

[Sidgeni Malkby]

Go back and rewatch the years then because this isn’t even a debate. I have been a season ticket holder since the Lemieux days and I saw every game live or on TV for pre-Reaves and after and it was a big decrease in players taking liberties. I am not going to go look up stats from those games but it was night and day difference and if you didn’t notice it then I doubt you watched those games. At the beginning of the year a few players tested what would happen and then Reaves showed them and then it just went away. After the game with the 3 fights it just stopped happening.

I am not saying Gudbranson will be the same deterrent but he has a chance to be. He literally broke Hamonic’s face this year and when someone can do that to you then you think twice on taking liberties to Pens players if you know you might miss time with injuries. Bottom line is I rather have Gudbranson doing that then players like Crosby and Letang. We saw how that went. Do I wish that cap hit was at least half that amount? Yes but it is what it is.

Overall Pens really don’t have many bad contracts so paying a few players too much will be fine. When we are paying such low cap hits for our stars compared to the other teams that are resigning star players we have a nice advantage. Look at the Leafs and the amount they are paying Mathews and Tavares. Marner is going to cost just as much. People talk about Johnson’s contract being a bad cap hit at $3.25 million a year but he has played top 4 minutes all year and with Dumoulin-Letang out Johnson-Schultz has done a nice job holding down top pairing minutes. For $3.25 million that is cheap. Now in those last couple years it might be bad but by then our Cup window will be nearing its end. Also 3 years from now that will be bottom pairing prices the way Cap goes up and new money brought in from Seattle.

Gudbranson was decent for the Panthers in his years with them so I will wait and see how he fits with us. You never know with any player how they will work out even when they are good players like Perron and Brassard who just didn’t work out. Perron is still a productive player now with the Blues but didn’t fit with us. Then you get guys like Schultz who blossomed here after everyone saying he was the worst defenseman in the NHL. I will reserve judgment on this deal until after the season.

I just with GMJR would make up his mind. One day he’s trading for speed and then back for toughness. The fact that he tried to get Hagelin back.

I almost feel like we at getting back to the DB days when we constantly kept losing our minds. There is some internal frustration that is being shown. Probably due to our precarious playoff situation.

Hopefully we can get a few wins under our belt and calm down.

I can’t want to see what Gidbranson brings to the table. We tend to have good luck with D so here’s to hope!

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

I just with GMJR would make up his mind. One day he’s trading for speed and then back for toughness. The fact that he tried to get Hagelin back.

I almost feel like we at getting back to the DB days when we constantly kept losing our minds. There is some internal frustration that is being shown. Probably due to our precarious playoff situation.

Hopefully we can get a few wins under our belt and calm down.

I can’t want to see what Gidbranson brings to the table. We tend to have good luck with D so here’s to hope!

I think it was simple with the Hagelin situation. Hagelin was having a terrible year and was going to be a UFA. He had a chance to get a player that had 3 years left on his contract that has averaged 40 points a year the past 3 seasons that was only 26. Why not see if he fits in with our team? I love trades like that and the Brassard/Sheahan trade. You trade 3 UFA’s for 3 younger players that have term. What was not to like? Just like I said in my last post, you never know how a player will work out for your team. Perron and Brassard had been good players and didn’t work for us and Perron is still doing well even now with the Blues.

Rutherford did a great job with trades this year getting young players with term for 3 UFA’s that all had a terrible season for us this year and Sprong a 20 year old winger that was getting benched for us and now with his new team. So for 4 players playing like crap for us and 3 in last season we get 4 young players with 3 doing good for us in Pettersson 22, McCann 22, and Bjugstad 26. Pearson 26 didn’t work out but I liked the trade and it’s logic. Now he gets traded for another player with term that is 27. If Gudbranson plays like his Florida days we will be fine. It is a gamble but when you look at the players we gave up and how they had been playing Rutherford clearly won his trades.

Overall JR made many more great trades than bad ones. Shero wasted 1st round picks and prospects for rentals which is bad asset management. Rutherford trades rentals for young players with term. Not even close in my mind which is the better asset management. The man has turned our team around when all the experts thought our time as true contenders had passed us by. We then win 2 Cups and lose in OT to the eventual Cup Champ last year. All a GM can do is give your team a chance to compete for a Cup and JR has. Even this season getting those young players infused into the lineup for older UFA’s that had been playing poorly was pure genius.

 

[Night Shift]

I like how Canucks fans came to our board and after the 1st game post Gudbranson "rah rah our D looks better" after the game... and then 2 games later and 7 goals against losing 4-1 in the 3rd.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I like how Canucks fans came to our board and after the 1st game post Gudbranson "rah rah our D looks better" after the game... and then 2 games later and 7 goals against losing 4-1 in the 3rd.

Funny, I did not even care enough to look how they were doing after the trade let alone go on their or anyone else's board.

 

[SouthGeorge]

I like how Canucks fans came to our board and after the 1st game post Gudbranson "rah rah our D looks better" after the game... and then 2 games later and 7 goals against losing 4-1 in the 3rd.

Yeah, I'm starting to question their hockey knowledge. They are posting clips to support how bad he is and I see their team is a mess. I'm excited for tomorrow.

 

[Night Shift]

Yeah, I'm starting to question their hockey knowledge. They are posting clips to support how bad he is and I see their team is a mess. I'm excited for tomorrow.

I don't think anyone has posted any clips from his Florida days, if they still exist lol. Maybe we can get an idea through those. But its probably 50/50 he works out.

 

[Turin]

I don't think anyone has posted any clips from his Florida days, if they still exist lol. Maybe we can get an idea through those. But its probably 50/50 he works out.

Nah.. it’s 10/90.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

I don't think anyone has posted any clips from his Florida days, if they still exist lol. Maybe we can get an idea through those. But its probably 50/50 he works out.

Seems that’s the case with most players when they come to a new team. Brassard and Perron did not work out but had been good players with Perron still good now. Then you get the other extreme like Schultz who was considered the worst defenseman in the NHL by people on the main board and now he is a very productive player for us. Pens got younger this year with the trades he had made. Sprong might have been young but not NHL ready which doesn’t help this team. He has been benched for Ducks also. Rutherford has injected youth that actually is playing. This years younger additions that helped are Pettersson 22, Riikola 24, McCann 22, Bjugstad 26. Pearson 26 also was a younger addition that unfortunately didn’t work out despite coming off back to back 40 points or better seasons. Overall like how he traded UFA’s for younger players with term. Really has done a nice job keeping the players around the core infused with youth. Not the years of Adams, Glass, etc like Shero. Rutherford makes moves and moves on from them fast if they are not working out. Shero didn’t correct mistakes.

 

[Night Shift]

Seems that’s the case with most players when they come to a new team. Brassard and Perron did not work out but had been good players with Perron still good now. Then you get the other extreme like Schultz who was considered the worst defenseman in the NHL be people on the main board and now he is a very productive player for us. Pens got younger this year with the trades he had made. Sprong might have been young but not NHL ready which doesn’t help this team. He has been benched for Ducks also. Rutherford has injected youth that actually is playing. This years younger additions that helped are Pettersson 22, Riikola 24, McCann 22, Bjugstad 26. Pearson 26 also was a younger addition that unfortunately didn’t work out despite coming off back to back 40 points or better seasons. Overall like how he traded UFA’s for younger players with term. Really has done a nice job keeping the players around the core infused with youth. Not the years of Adams, Glass, etc like Shero. Rutherford makes moves and moves on from them fast if they are not working out. Shero didn’t correct mistakes.

This is a really, really good point you brought up about the youth brought up through trades. Everyone so negative that this seems overlooked (I wasn't negative per se but I overlooked it too) McCann I think will be our 3rd line center going forward and the nice thing about Bjug is he can play center on short term notice too. Pettersson shaping like a really good addition

 

[lastcupever75]

I just with GMJR would make up his mind. One day he’s trading for speed and then back for toughness. The fact that he tried to get Hagelin back.

I almost feel like we at getting back to the DB days when we constantly kept losing our minds. There is some internal frustration that is being shown. Probably due to our precarious playoff situation.

Hopefully we can get a few wins under our belt and calm down.

I can’t want to see what Gidbranson brings to the table. We tend to have good luck with D so here’s to hope!

nothing says that you can't have both. Do I personally think Gud will solve all of that. heck no, its something that takes more then 1 player. But if he does give our skill guys that little bit of extra room, then I think its worth a shot.
we might not be as fast as a couple years ago but we are far and away still a skilled finesse type team

 

[lastcupever75]

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but I think the reasoning behind why they got Gudbranson is like this.

Rutherford has been obsessed with protecting Crosby and Malkin since he became the Penguins GM. First it was Steve Downie. Then from the beginning of the 2015 season to the end of the 2017 season the Penguins didn't have a designated "deterrent" and managed to win two Stanley Cups. Then the Penguins tried Reaves, Sullivan deployed him in the wrong situations and the Penguins shipped him out to Las Vegas.

I feel the Penguins then leaned on Oleksiak, who was willing, but just unable to fit the role they wanted him to. Just because someone's big, doesn't mean they can fight. Rutherford built up Tom Wilson "avoiding" Oleksiak during the playoffs and sure enough once they finally fought, Wilson almost knocked him out. He was traded not too long after that; I think it was a week or two later. Now enter Erik Gudbranson. Who's by no means a top fighter, there's very few heavyweights in the NHL and the Penguins traded the best one. That said, Gudbranson is slightly more effective at the role than Oleksiak was or at least more willing. The problem is, they don't need that kind of player, they never did and if they felt they did, why the heck did they trade the best in the NHL?

If he traded big rig because he lost 1 fight as wilson got the jump on him then rutherford needs to be more patient.
If that was his logic on the trade why get rid of reeves? he destroyed wilson in a couple previous fights.

 

[lastcupever75]

I just don't think he's that great of a fighter.

He's got size, that's about it. He shouldn't have been forced into that role. He had 8 fights as a Penguin and almost every win was against guys who don't typically fight. His fight against Chara and Wilson were pretty decisive losses. He barely edged out Simmonds who to his advantage is smaller but a good fighter. That was about as good as he's looked in a fight against someone who can actually fight. I'm not saying he's terrible, he's not Hal Gill. He still shouldn't have been counted on to be that guy though.

he never got the chance to "lock out" wilson with his arms.
the way TW got the jump on him put Rig in that bad situation/bad angle to catch him in his wheelhouse

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

If he traded big rig because he lost 1 fight as wilson got the jump on him then rutherford needs to be more patient.
If that was his logic on the trade why get rid of reeves? he destroyed wilson in a couple previous fights.

I am sure after hindsight he would have kept him. The truth is Oleksiak was a proven good fighter before he came to us and was also playing decent on our bottom
pairing. So when Vegas insisted in Reeves being part of the deal for the cap space for Brassard JR thought he was expendable even though he rather have kept him. If you watched the press conference after the trade you would of heard it from JR himself how it went down.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

The worst part about Reaves when he was in Pittsburgh was that he played on a like with Rowney and Kuhn. I don't consider any of them that bad of players, but it would be tough to build a worse line. If he was on a 4th line with say Cullen and Simon/Blueger, I think he would have been perfectly fine and served his purpose.

The second worse part was that Sully reigned him in a little too much.

Agreed. I opposed that trade but I think Reaves gets a bad rap around here. The reason he wasn't very successful falls squarely on the shoulders of JR and Sully, IMO. Hamfisted.

 

[Peat]

Kuhnhackl-Sheahan-Reaves even went on a mini-tear when put together.

I do honestly think he looked bad most days on the ice though unless the opposition slowed the game down.

 

[Shady Machine]

Kuhnhackl-Sheahan-Reaves even went on a mini-tear when put together.

I do honestly think he looked bad most days on the ice though unless the opposition slowed the game down.

Yeah I'm not going to be a hypocrite here. I hated the trade for Reaves and thought overall he played like shit in Pittsburgh. Having said that, IF you think he's that important to pay that price, then put him in a role to succeed. Sully didn't do that and then JR traded him away. Now he's playing better than ever in Vegas after being fine in St Louis. Was it just a bad fit? Not entirely sure, but Sully clearly didn't really try.

 

[Peat]

Yeah I'm not going to be a hypocrite here. I hated the trade for Reaves and thought overall he played like **** in Pittsburgh. Having said that, IF you think he's that important to pay that price, then put him in a role to succeed. Sully didn't do that and then JR traded him away. Now he's playing better than ever in Vegas after being fine in St Louis. Was it just a bad fit? Not entirely sure, but Sully clearly didn't really try.

Tbf to Sully, he never really had the bottom 6 depth to put Reaves into a good position to succeed until we got Brassard (the initial Sheahan experiment was when we were trialling Guentzel at 3C, which was great for the 4th line and awful for the 3rd). And that's not on him. Sully didn't exactly try hard with what he had but I'm not sure even Reaves' biggest fan would have made it work with Rowney and Kuhnhackl. I suppose he could have tried Reaves up a line, but none of us were suggesting that at the time.

 

[Shady Machine]

Tbf to Sully, he never really had the bottom 6 depth to put Reaves into a good position to succeed until we got Brassard (the initial Sheahan experiment was when we were trialling Guentzel at 3C, which was great for the 4th line and awful for the 3rd). And that's not on him. Sully didn't exactly try hard with what he had but I'm not sure even Reaves' biggest fan would have made it work with Rowney and Kuhnhackl. I suppose he could have tried Reaves up a line, but none of us were suggesting that at the time.

Yeah that's a fair follow up. It was just a failure from every angle.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Yeah I'm not going to be a hypocrite here. I hated the trade for Reaves and thought overall he played like **** in Pittsburgh. Having said that, IF you think he's that important to pay that price, then put him in a role to succeed. Sully didn't do that and then JR traded him away. Now he's playing better than ever in Vegas after being fine in St Louis. Was it just a bad fit? Not entirely sure, but Sully clearly didn't really try.

You kinda answer your own question there, Shady. Reaves didn't fit here, but it didn't negate his value to someone else, per se.

Going back to the eternal debate about "identity" for a second, one of the problems with it (as I see it) is that our identity was based around secondary scorers. Which was great, until those secondary scorers slumped hard. Then they were still quick on the counterattack, but not doing anything. I haven't done the analysis (because I just don't have the time), but I'd be really curious to see the quality of scoring chances were for last year from our secondary scorers. I seem to remember a lot of bad angle shots, low percentage attempts, and sloppy board work, but I could be wrong.

Secondly, I think speed was less of the overall identity than people think. Who were our speedsters on the 2017 Cup squad? How many of the skaters were actually that fast? Only a handful. The rest were pretty average skaters, some above, some below. What made the team seem fast was its ability to neutralize the play and rapidly counter-attack. And that was driven by having 3 scoring lines with Sid and Geno playing very well. We can claim it's about execution, or it was Sully's X's and O's, but we saw what happens when teams start learning how to play against a quick counterattacking team-- you have to adjust your tactics, control your own breakouts and cycles a bit differently, and more importantly, out anticipate the Pens a bit.

So I get why GMJR tried to switch it up, honestly. But at the same time, I'm not sure Sullivan's the coach for the switch.

 

[Peat]

Yeah that's a fair follow up. It was just a failure from every angle.

And this is why when I choreograph the interpretative dance tribute to this trade, it will be to Yakety Sax.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I'm still holding off on the trade. I thought the Guerin trade was dumb, I hated the thought of bringing back Scuderi and Lovejoy, but in the end those moves worked, even though there were huge questions about those players. It's going to depend on how Gudbrandson fits and how he's used, but if this is another case of GMJR making a trade that Sullivan refuses to make the best of, or that he feels cannot work on this team, there's a bigger problem than a bad trade-- namely that the front office and the coaching staff are on two different pages and that needs to be remedied first and foremost.

 

[Peat]

You kinda answer your own question there, Shady. Reaves didn't fit here, but it didn't negate his value to someone else, per se.

Going back to the eternal debate about "identity" for a second, one of the problems with it (as I see it) is that our identity was based around secondary scorers. Which was great, until those secondary scorers slumped hard. Then they were still quick on the counterattack, but not doing anything. I haven't done the analysis (because I just don't have the time), but I'd be really curious to see the quality of scoring chances were for last year from our secondary scorers. I seem to remember a lot of bad angle shots, low percentage attempts, and sloppy board work, but I could be wrong.

I might have a look at some point but I think you're looking kinda at the wrong place because...

Secondly, I think speed was less of the overall identity than people think. Who were our speedsters on the 2017 Cup squad? How many of the skaters were actually that fast? Only a handful. The rest were pretty average skaters, some above, some below. What made the team seem fast was its ability to neutralize the play and rapidly counter-attack. And that was driven by having 3 scoring lines with Sid and Geno playing very well. We can claim it's about execution, or it was Sully's X's and O's, but we saw what happens when teams start learning how to play against a quick counterattacking team-- you have to adjust your tactics, control your own breakouts and cycles a bit differently, and more importantly, out anticipate the Pens a bit.

So I get why GMJR tried to switch it up, honestly. But at the same time, I'm not sure Sullivan's the coach for the switch.

I kinda agree in that we always had some slow skaters and that it was always more about moving the puck faster than being quick... but we were quicker then. A team where one of Rust, Sheary or Kessel is only your 4th fastest wing is fast. Now one of Rust and Kessel is the 1st fastest and the other the 2nd (well, maybe McCann sneaks in). Schultz was definitely our third best skating dman at best, now he's probably the second. And none of those guys have got faster.

In any case - the biggest thing about that strategy (imo) is about the blue line and how quickly they can turn a situation from defence to attack, not the secondary scorers. We've got a lot worse at that. I think our secondary players' ability to pressure the puck is more important than their ability to attack.

And I also think that Sully, the guy who loved Kunitz and Wilson far more than ever made sense, and who beat Ottawa by just doing dump, chase, hit, isn't against the sort of identity change that Rutherford seems interested in. I think that Rutherford's got to go and get better big guys than Derek Grant, Jack Johnson and Garrett Wilson to make it work. Which will be incredibly difficult. Which makes me wonder about this identity change...

 

[pistolpete11]

Tbf to Sully, he never really had the bottom 6 depth to put Reaves into a good position to succeed until we got Brassard (the initial Sheahan experiment was when we were trialling Guentzel at 3C, which was great for the 4th line and awful for the 3rd). And that's not on him. Sully didn't exactly try hard with what he had but I'm not sure even Reaves' biggest fan would have made it work with Rowney and Kuhnhackl. I suppose he could have tried Reaves up a line, but none of us were suggesting that at the time.

Yeah, I put that more on JR than Sully. I think JR thought Cullen was coming back. Obviously a miscalculation, but a reasonable one IMO. Even Kuhn - Cullen - Reaves wouldn't have been terrible.

 

[madinsomniac]

To be honest, we traded Big rig because Shultz was coming back and we needed cap space for the Florida trade that was being worked on... I don’t think Wilson mattered in the least about it

 

[HandshakeLine]

I kinda agree in that we always had some slow skaters and that it was always more about moving the puck faster than being quick... but we were quicker then. A team where one of Rust, Sheary or Kessel is only your 4th fastest wing is fast. Now one of Rust and Kessel is the 1st fastest and the other the 2nd (well, maybe McCann sneaks in). Schultz was definitely our third best skating dman at best, now he's probably the second. And none of those guys have got faster.

In any case - the biggest thing about that strategy (imo) is about the blue line and how quickly they can turn a situation from defence to attack, not the secondary scorers. We've got a lot worse at that. I think our secondary players' ability to pressure the puck is more important than their ability to attack.

And I also think that Sully, the guy who loved Kunitz and Wilson far more than ever made sense, and who beat Ottawa by just doing dump, chase, hit, isn't against the sort of identity change that Rutherford seems interested in. I think that Rutherford's got to go and get better big guys than Derek Grant, Jack Johnson and Garrett Wilson to make it work. Which will be incredibly difficult. Which makes me wonder about this identity change...

I don't know if we're that far apart here, Peat.

I'll agree that the lack of blueline puckmovers hinders the system, sure. No question. I think that's probably the weakest part of this team as it's currently constructed and what makes the move a little puzzling. That said, I've been wrong about how slow skating d-men can fit into this system before. Lovejoy isn't a great skater, but with the right partner, he was fine. I just don't know if we have a partner for Gudbrandson that will be able to minimize that. Or maybe I'm totally wrong on his skating. I dunno.

But going back to the forwards for a second, let's take a look at our former speedsters-- Hagelin, Sheary, Rust, and Kessel. We've lost two- Hagelin and Sheary. And both Hagelin and Sheary were minimized to an extent in 2017-2018 as teams began to figure out how to play them, and Hagelin was almost totally useless for his time here this year. How do you minimize speed? You find a way to force speedy players into bad positions (easy to do with Sheary given his small size), you play smart positionally, and you outmuscle them. Speed doesn't make you dangerous by itself, but speed + finishing does.

So, can we say we lost the speed identity if it wasn't working for us before the trades? That's what I'm curious about.

I'm not advocating for a return to some plodding, West Coast dinosaur style hockey. I don't want us to play like the dead puck Devils. But I do see the logic in changing up our game plan after it wasn't working for most of last year and this year.