Salary Cap: The Endless Speculation Edition

[Empoleon8771]

You answered your own question in your 2hd sentence. Faceoffs. That's kind of an important thing to be good at particularly as a third line center.

Faceoffs have an overrated importance and don't matter a majority of the time. The Penguins have basically never had a great faceoff man in the 3C spot during the Crosby era, yet that hasn't stopped them from winning 3 cups. I think Sheahan has been the only center who was a great faceoff man while being the Penguins 3C, when he had a 54.4% faceoff% in 2017-2018. All of Staal, Sutter, Bonino, Brassard and Bjugstad are below 50% in faceoffs for their Penguins careers.

 

[Ryder71]

Faceoffs have an overrated importance and don't matter a majority of the time.

Except when they do, and they can have a big impact in a one goal game. Besides, why can't McCann do what he's doing on Wing? That shouldn't hinder his game one bit with how he's playing. His game translates very well to that and he's more likely to get top six mins here on wing (when we're healthy) than he would at center.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Except when they do, and they can have a big impact in a one goal game. Besides, why can't McCann do what he's doing on Wing? That shouldn't hinder his game one bit with how he's playing. His game translates very well to that and he's more likely to get top six mins here on wing (when we're healthy) than he would at center.

All of Staal, Sutter, Bonino, Brassard and Bjugstad were below 50% in faceoffs for their Penguins career. The Penguins have had 1 3C who was good with faceoffs during the Crosby era, that was Sheahan for like 50 games. Oh yeah, they've been to 4 cups with those centers too.

Who cares if McCann would get more top-6 minutes at wing? He's a great defensive center, so you should want him at center.

 

[Gurglesons]

Except when they do, and they can have a big impact in a one goal game. Besides, why can't McCann do what he's doing on Wing? That shouldn't hinder his game one bit with how he's playing. His game translates very well to that and he's more likely to get top six mins here on wing (when we're healthy) than he would at center.

They really don’t.

 

[Ryder71]

All of Staal, Sutter, Bonino, Brassard and Bjugstad were below 50% in faceoffs for their Penguins career. The Penguins have had 1 3C who was good with faceoffs during the Crosby era, that was Sheahan for like 50 games. Oh yeah, they've been to 4 cups with those centers too.

Who cares if McCann would get more top-6 minutes at wing? He's a great defensive center, so you should want him at center.

I don't know that I'd label him as a ''great defensive center''. I think that's a bit much, but I would say he's been pretty effective thus far both at center and on wing. I just prefer him on wing. And being below 50% isn't good, but how many of those guys were as bad at is as McCann? He can be effective without playing center.

 

[Ryder71]

They really don’t.

Agree to disagree.

 

[Empoleon8771]

To add, there doesn't seem to be any correlation between team success and faceoff% if you look at the last 6 cup winners. The Kings and Hawks were good with faceoffs, the Penguins were mediocre one year and bad the next year with faceoffs and the Capitals and Blues were mediocre with faceoffs. I also think faceoff talent doesn't even matter, because even the best centers at faceoffs lose 40% of the time. As long as you have 1 guy who's actually good at faceoffs, you can just keep throwing him out for those important defensive situations where you need your best faceoff man. That's what the Penguins did with Cullen when he was here.

 

[wej20]

The faceoffs are an issue to me also. I personally think in terms of being a true 3C, Lafferty is much better in that spot. I think that guy is so underrated.

If they could get Lafferty in the lineup regularly, and Bleuger could get to 50% (he's currently at 48.2) then they'd be in a pretty solid spot face-off wise (especially with Malkin at 49.5% this year).

 

[Ryder71]

And it might be one or two key faceoffs during a game that make a difference. And I'd prefer to have a guy at 55% than I would a guy at say 45%. With the icing rules nowadays that could mean a lot. Before you could throw out Sid or some such player, now you're stuck with who's currently on the ice.

 

[JTG]

Faceoffs have an overrated importance and don't matter a majority of the time.

I know you are a champion of this, but it is nonsense. In the playoffs when you need to retain possession of the puck, faceoffs matter.

If you are a puck possession team (which we are), starting out with the puck is a big deal.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I know you are a champion of this, but it is nonsense. In the playoffs when you need to retain possession of the puck, faceoffs matter.

If you are a puck possession team (which we are), starting out with the puck is a big deal.

There is no correlation statistically between being a good faceoff team and being a good possession team. You're making your own assumptions based on what logically makes sense to you, but it's an incorrect assumption based on the statistics.

 

[JTG]

And it might be one or two key faceoffs during a game that make a difference. And I'd prefer to have a guy at 55% than I would a guy at say 45%. With the icing rules nowadays that could mean a lot. Before you could throw out Sid or some such player, now you're stuck with who's currently on the ice.

When I think of faceoffs I immediately go to the game 7 against Washington or the final games against San Jose or Nashville. When you get down to the wire and you HAVE to retain the puck to win...faceoffs win.

 

[JTG]

There is no correlation statistically between being a good faceoff team and being a good possession team. You're making your own assumptions based on what logically makes sense to you, but it's an incorrect assumption based on the statistics.

Says someone who has probably never played hockey competitively before.

 

[Ryder71]

I know you are a champion of this, but it is nonsense. In the playoffs when you need to retain possession of the puck, faceoffs matter.

If you are a puck possession team (which we are), starting out with the puck is a big deal.

Precisely, if you win a draw cleanly you control the puck, which means you dictate the immediate play. And obviously it's better to to dictate the play than to defend.

I don't want to sound like a Dinosaur, but there were reasons as to why Francis and Trottier took key draws in the Pens glory days of the early 90's. Trottier also did for the Isles, Carbonneau for the Habs, Messier for Edmonton, Yzerman for Detroit, Forsberg for the AV's, Toews Chitown etc. All these teams tried to put out their best faceoff guys. There are reasons as to why they did that. It wasn't just a random player they'd put out there.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Says someone who has probably never played hockey competitively before.

Dude I played hockey in college like 2 years ago. And do you seriously think this is a rebuttal to what the stats say?

 

[JTG]

Precisely, if you win a draw cleanly you control the puck, which means you dictate the immediate play. And obviously it's better to to dictate the play than to defend.

I don't want to sound like a Dinosaur, but there were reasons as to why Francis and Trottier took key draws in the Pens glory days of the early 90's. Trottier also did for the Oilers, Messeier for Edmonton, Yzerman for Detroit, Forsberg for the AV's etc. All these teams tried to put out their best faceoff guys. There are reasons as to why they did that. It wasn't just a random player they'd put out there.

Well you have these numb nuts who read an article once that said there was no correlation between wins/possession and faceoff wins and they ran with it.

Situationally, the 3rd faceoff of a game in November does not matter. That being said, when a game is important, you want to win a faceoff greater than 50% of the time, and that defines success.

 

[JTG]

Dude I played hockey in college like 2 years ago. And do you seriously think this is a rebuttal to what the stats say?

The issue with that line of analysis is that it's not situational. It takes every faceoff through the course of the year. I'll try to find the analysis this guy did that destroyed the nitwit that created that analysis.

 

[reino]

Precisely, if you win a draw cleanly you control the puck, which means you dictate the immediate play. And obviously it's better to to dictate the play than to defend.

I don't want to sound like a Dinosaur, but there were reasons as to why Francis and Trottier took key draws in the Pens glory days of the early 90's. Trottier also did for the Ilses, Messier for Edmonton, Yzerman for Detroit, Forsberg for the AV's etc. All these teams tried to put out their best faceoff guys. There are reasons as to why they did that. It wasn't just a random player they'd put out there.

are you trolling?

 

[Ryder71]

Well you have these numb nuts who read an article once that said there was no correlation between wins/possession and faceoff wins and they ran with it.

Situationally, the 3rd faceoff of a game in November does not matter. That being said, when a game is important, you want to win a faceoff greater than 50% of the time, and that defines success.

You want to put yourself in the best position from which to succeed. And if you're better than not in that particular facet of the game, you enhance your chances. Obviously it doesn't guarantee anything, but it's better to win a draw than not.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The issue with that line of analysis is that it's not situational. It takes every faceoff through the course of the year. I'll try to find the analysis this guy did that destroyed the nitwit that created that analysis.

Yes, which is exactly what I said: faceoffs aren't important a vast majority of the time. You can pick certain situations to say that a faceoff mattered in that exact situation, but for the majority of time, they don't matter.

Sure, they matter when you're up 1 with 15 seconds left in your DZone. They matter in situations like the Sheary OT goal. But I'd argue that at least 95% of faceoffs do not matter whatsoever. There is no statistical connection between being good at faceoffs and winning games or having good possession stats.

 

[JTG]

Yes, which is exactly what I said: faceoffs aren't important a vast majority of the time. You can pick certain situations to say that a faceoff mattered in that exact situation, but for the majority of time, they don't matter.

If a faceoff matters situationally, they matter all the time because you can't just pick and choose who your players are.

Does a faceoff matter in game 7 in the SCF? Yes. Because of that they are important and you should take faceoff ability into the equation when finding a center.

 

[EightyOne]

Just tie the opponent up

Just don't lose the draw clean

Trust the wingers to get after it

 

[Empoleon8771]

If a faceoff matters situationally, they matter all the time because you can't just pick and choose who your players are.

Does a faceoff matter in game 7 in the SCF? Yes. Because of that they are important and you should take faceoff ability into the equation when finding a center.

That is such bad logic that I don't even see a point in continuing this discussion.

 

[JTG]

You want to put yourself in the best position from which to succeed. And if you're better than not in that particular facet of the game, you enhance your chances. Obviously it doesn't guarantee anything, but it's better to win a draw than not.

Detroit Red Wings in the 2000s were faceoff monsters, and because they played a possession lock/trap, they should have been called the Detroit Boa Constrictors.

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

From a visual perspective I like McCann better at wing, he seems far more dangerous and much more comfortable with less responsibility. I'd keep him at wing unless we trade Bjug