The Curious Case of Mitch Marner discussion thread.

[Bluelines]

We have the cap to go UFA shopping and have the cap to have quality depth, we just have the wrong players in depth roles.

Even if Tavares, Matthews and Marner are overpaid by a collective 5.5 mill, that is likely having an Andrew Ladd on the books, which didnt stop NYI from adding depth in all areas.

$5.1 mil gets you a Yanni Gourde

 

[Dekes For Days]

NHL free agent list, RFA compensation scale - Sportsnet.ca

Yeah, in 2015, the compensation amounts were different...

The reason is to not have 50% of your cap tied up in 4 players and paly a yearly game of whack of mole with UFA's

Well, for one, that wasn't a factor when the signings occurred, which is what we were discussing. That's been a result of the global pandemic, as well as the horrible drafting we had under Lou. And we have still been able to improve our team and address weaknesses with this strategy and team make-up. You underestimate the turnover many teams see in their depth.

Name one UFA that we have signed in the last 4 years that has had a material impact on the team?

Brodie.

Nope

Yep.

Both are UFA's at the end of this contract.

That's not what "walking straight to UFA" means. They were given the most common post-ELC term lengths, and UFA years were bought. By the logic you are using, anybody that signs anything other than a bridge is "walked straight to UFA".

 

[Bluelines]

NYI's top C is making is 7M

I consider Nelson the 2C and he's making 6M

Now I am not saying they're better but 13M combined for their top 2 centres is about 10M less than our combined top 2 centres, it helps you add more quality pieces around the roster.

NYI pushed Tampa the hardest in the last 2 playoffs IMO

I would trade the rights of Tavares back to NYI for the rights to Trotz, if that was a thing.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The Leafs would have to allow them to do so which in essence means they aren't FREE to sign with another team.

Leafs don't have to allow anything. They are free to sign with another team for whatever they want. The Leafs would just have an opportunity to match that exact contract and keep them.

 

[Bluelines]

Yeah, in 2015, the compensation amounts were different...

Well, for one, that wasn't a factor when the signings occurred, which is what we were discussing. That's been a result of the global pandemic, as well as the horrible drafting we had under Lou. And we have still been able to improve our team and address weaknesses with this strategy and team make-up. You underestimate the turnover many teams see in their depth.

Brodie.

Yep.

That's not what "walking straight to UFA" means. Those are the most common term lengths, and UFA years were bought. By the logic you are using, anybody that signs anything other than a bridge is "walked straight to UFA".

I'll give you Brodie, name 2 ..

So the recession the economy was barreling towards regardless of the pandemic is a non factor in your opinion, there were many financial indicators that had us headed to a recession. When planning a budget, you don't plan on your revenues going up for ever and ever amen.... there is a reason why the league held out for an escrow system... they knew cap projections were just that projections and subject to a down turn in economy. In 2018 I knew, my financial planner knew, my kids knew, my friends knew, sometime the next 3 to 5 years the economy was going to shit the bed why didn't Dubas? Oh that is right he used the old KMART, Sears forecasting model, if it was good last year, its gotta be better next year forecast planning method, spend like drunken sailors boys wooooooohooooooo...

Walking a player straight to UFA , that is EXACTLY what it means.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I'll give you Brodie, name 2 ..

I mean, this is a perfect representation of how the goalposts shift, or you just outright ignore when you're proven wrong (like the offer sheet compensation), but Tavares.

So the recession the economy was barreling towards regardless of the pandemic is a non factor in your opinion

A potential recession was a factor that wouldn't have changed the fact that we had a rapidly-increasing cap upcoming. The only reason we have a flat cap is the pandemic.

Walking a player straight to UFA , that is EXACTLY what it means.

It's not at all. "Walking a player straight to UFA" usually means buying no UFA years, and having them hit UFA as soon as possible.

 

[Racer88]

I would trade the rights of Tavares back to NYI for the rights to Trotz, if that was a thing.

Sign my up for that bus ride as well

 

[zeke]

It's not at all. "Walking a player straight to UFA" usually means buying no UFA years, and having them hit UFA as soon as possible.

And by "usually" you mean "always".

 

[uncleben]

NHL free agent list, RFA compensation scale - Sportsnet.ca

Tangential to the conversation, but for posterity sake:
That was back in 2015

When Matthews signed, 4 1sts was for $9,814,936, and above and when Marner signed 4 1sts was for $10,568,590 and above
Currently 4 1sts goes for $10,907,736 and above

 

[Stonehands1990]

lol, these guys are allowed to have a fcking life

No offence but this post is extremely uneducated. Do you think professional athletes don’t train all off season? Off season is the only time you can get faster, more explosive, bigger, stronger etc. It’s impossible to do it with the caloric needs of the regular season. And training is only 90 minutes a day 5 days a week or so + nutrition. Not sure why you’re lol’ing or swearing but maybe do some research

 

[francis246]

No offence but this post is extremely uneducated. Do you think professional athletes don’t train all off season? Off season is the only time you can get faster, more explosive etc. It’s impossible to do it with the caloric needs of the regular season. And training is only 90 minutes a day + nutrition. Not sure why you’re lol’ing or swearing but maybe do some research

I was both a provincial/national team athlete along as a USports athlete in another sport (not hockey). Now I coach Team Ontario for that specific sport. I understand exactly what athletes go through in the off-season as I myself have gone through it and I also now coach athletes that are going through it. No one said he’s not training, but he’s allowed to take time off. Most athletes after major competition will take a month off or weeks (depends on their program). Your off-season training isn’t supposed to be crazy rigorous, there are different stages of a training cycle. Right now they are probably working out while taking vacations and getting ready for the pre competition cycle. There is nothing wrong with them enjoying themselves. The notion that the best athletes train 24/7 and never take a break and if you don’t post that you’re working out you’re not working is false

 

[Golden_Jet]

Leafs don't have to allow anything. They are free to sign with another team for whatever they want. The Leafs would just have an opportunity to match that exact contract and keep them.

Sure their free to sign, but the leafs decide if the player moves or not.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Sure their free to sign, but the leafs decide if the player moves or not.

But not the contract.

 

[Stonehands1990]

I was both a provincial/national team athlete along as a USports athlete in another sport (not hockey). Now I coach Team Ontario for that specific sport. I understand exactly what athletes go through in the off-season as I myself have gone through it and I also now coach athletes that are going through it. No one said he’s not training, but he’s allowed to take time off. Most athletes after major competition will take a month off or weeks (depends on their program). Your off-season training isn’t supposed to be crazy rigorous, there are different stages of a training cycle. Right now they are probably working out while taking vacations and getting ready for the pre competition cycle. There is nothing wrong with them enjoying themselves. The notion that the best athletes train 24/7 and never take a break and if you don’t post that you’re working out you’re not working is false

And at no point did anyone imply they should be working out 24/7…

 

[Superstar]

I was both a provincial/national team athlete along as a USports athlete in another sport (not hockey). Now I coach Team Ontario for that specific sport. I understand exactly what athletes go through in the off-season as I myself have gone through it and I also now coach athletes that are going through it. No one said he’s not training, but he’s allowed to take time off. Most athletes after major competition will take a month off or weeks (depends on their program). Your off-season training isn’t supposed to be crazy rigorous, there are different stages of a training cycle. Right now they are probably working out while taking vacations and getting ready for the pre competition cycle. There is nothing wrong with them enjoying themselves. The notion that the best athletes train 24/7 and never take a break and if you don’t post that you’re working out you’re not working is false

But some people are lazier than others, playing more and indulging in leisure when they should be working out more...so if players are just preparing "enough" to pass a fitness test when push-comes-to-shove for pre-season, that doesn't say much about their commitment to improving and being best they could be.

 

[Bluelines]

Tangential to the conversation, but for posterity sake:
That was back in 2015

When Matthews signed, 4 1sts was for $9,814,936, and above and when Marner signed 4 1sts was for $10,568,590 and above
Currently 4 1sts goes for $10,907,736 and above

Right, at any rate for the amount both signed for if it was an offer sheet the end result would have been 4 first rounders.

 

[francis246]

But some people are lazier than others, playing more and indulging in leisure when they should be working out more...so if players are just preparing "enough" to pass a fitness test when push-comes-to-shove for pre-season, that doesn't say much about their commitment to improving and being best they could be.

again that is an assumption. You’re making a complete assumption based on two things. He posted an engagement photo and the fact that people are pissed off about his performance. Those two things give you little to no insight on a players off-season work ethic. That’s the problem with social media and fans these days, a lot of you feel entitled. Just because Marner isn’t posting work out videos or posting pictures of off season skating on IG doesn’t mean he isn’t working or he isn’t working as hard as any other player in the league. It’s complete bullshit for you to even assume that.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Right, at any rate for the amount both signed for if it was an offer sheet the end result would have been 4 first rounders.

Marner could have been given a 10.55m x 5 year offer sheet, which would have been below the four 1st level, and worse for the Leafs than the contract he received. Four 1st round picks does not make up for losing a player like that through his prime anyway.

 

[myleafs]

Marner and Matthews contracts were bad the moment they were signed, that hasn't changed over time, no narrative, no sugar coating it. It's prevented him from getting quality depth to support his stars and a large reason we're in the UFA bargain bin for the 2nd summer in a row.

This UFA period has been more bananas than the summer prior and I felt he's made some good adds but there are still some weaknesses on this roster that we just can't address.

Im kinda with KD on this one...depth or lack of depth players keep being brought up like it was the problem and not just a problem but a Dubas problem. Except that the depth players were not the problem in these past playoffs. If it wasn't for the depth guys we had scoring we get demolished. I prefer a different kind of depth player than we were icing but they did their job against the Habs....how they would have fared against the final 6 or final 4 is another discussion but against the Habs they did their job, the dmen did their job, the goalie did his job. We all know who didn't do their jobs. Is that on Dubas? Would more depth on the 3rd line have made M&M find their scoring touch?

As much as I question the way the team is built and his handling of the big 4's contracts, I am having a difficult time understanding how Dubas can take all the heat for 2 top 10 scorers in the league shitting the bed and coming up empty when it counted. I understand why Dubas would believe in them but If they shit the bed again and Dubas continues to stick his neck out for them then I will be all aboard the dubasmustgo train.

 

[Gary Nylund]

again that is an assumption. You’re making a complete assumption based on two things. He posted an engagement photo and the fact that people are pissed off about his performance. Those two things give you little to no insight on a players off-season work ethic. That’s the problem with social media and fans these days, a lot of you feel entitled. Just because Marner isn’t posting work out videos or posting pictures of off season skating on IG doesn’t mean he isn’t working or he isn’t working as hard as any other player in the league. It’s complete bullshit for you to even assume that.

Agreed. I believe I'm one of Marner's critics but I have to say that my understanding is that he worked his ass off last off-season and I have no reason to assume he won't do the same this summer. Working hard is not his problem, I'll just leave it at that.

 

[centipede2233]

Marner is the cowardly lion in the wizard of ozz, he needs to visit the wizard of oz for a bottle of that courage so he can stop those over the glass delay of game penalties. Lol

 

[Superstar]

again that is an assumption. You’re making a complete assumption based on two things. He posted an engagement photo and the fact that people are pissed off about his performance. Those two things give you little to no insight on a players off-season work ethic. That’s the problem with social media and fans these days, a lot of you feel entitled. Just because Marner isn’t posting work out videos or posting pictures of off season skating on IG doesn’t mean he isn’t working or he isn’t working as hard as any other player in the league. It’s complete bullshit for you to even assume that.

I'm not making an assumption on anything...I wasn't even referring to Marner specifically...I'm just stating something general with human nature...not everyone gives the same effort and work hard, so just because there's some kind of regiment, whether it's in season or off-season, it doesn't mean people are discipline enough to follow it or don't take shortcuts...some people just do "enough" to pass...heck, even players take shortcuts in a real game with thousands watching and the camera rolling.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Marner could have been given a 10.55m x 5 year offer sheet, which would have been below the four 1st level, and worse for the Leafs than the contract he received. Four 1st round picks does not make up for losing a player like that through his prime anyway.

Marner is the one who solicited the offer sheet from CBJ. That I will never forgive him for. It's one thing if some team drops a bag of money on you because they want you badly. It's another when you and your agent are actively begging teams to do it so you can just raise your price on your own team. Why do you think they never bothered to give him an offer sheet? They knew it was just to drive up the price on Dubas and he fell for it.

I don't care what the guy does in the future..Conn Smythe or league MVP...I will never cheer for that little selfish prick.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Marner is the one who solicited the offer sheet from CBJ.

Maybe I was asleep but this is news to me. Is this generally accepted as fact or a rumour?

 

[freshwind]

Maybe I was asleep but this is news to me. Is this generally accepted as fact or a rumour?

the story i remember was that columbus wanted a 7 year deal and mitchy wanted a 5 yr deal ... they agreed on money (annual) but the jackets wanted 7 years ...
no link or article.. just my recollection