The Core Has To Go

Trapper

Registered User
Nov 21, 2013
24,658
12,825
I remember when we were promised that the only way they could ever have success was to tank and rebuild.
I agree with that premise. However it doesn’t mean you draft 3 years in a row and you have the right core.

Then on top of that, (if you think you do have the right core, and I don’t), if you are fully set on paying them astronomical salaries, you must have continuous draft picks to back those large salaries. We gave all picks and depth away.
Now you are right back to trying to build a UFA team around those guys. Bad recipe.
 
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francis246

Registered User
Nov 16, 2007
14,877
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I remember when we were promised that the only way they could ever have success was to tank and rebuild.

I believe it is, but man did we ever mess up with our secondary picks in 2015 and 2016.

I didn’t mind the trade back in 2015 but to take Dermott over Carlo was madness. Even Aho was there.

Third round in 2015 was also a disaster.

Then in 2016, to take Korshkov to start round 2. Oh my. Picks 57 and 62 turned out pretty good (Grundstrom and Woll).

I just think we needed at least one or two of our 2nd or 3rd rounders in 2015/2016 to develop. That would have made a huge difference. Maybe we don’t need JT as much because we are happy with our young forward group.
 

notDatsyuk

Registered User
Jul 20, 2018
11,687
9,797
You should research the reason behind the boycott....I got a couple of warnings already so I can't get into it. Its more thsn you think ....TML twitter symbol says it all.....in the same boat as Bud...look into it..
I understand, at least to an extent, the reason behind the boycott, and I'll just say I'm not impressed.

I see my (tongue in cheek) fears may already be coming true, as Modelo Especial has apparently taken over top spot in the US. It's a much better beer. Modelo also makes Corona (which I can't stand) and Modelo Negra (dark), which is excellent, along with a few others.
 
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hockeywiz542

Registered User
May 26, 2008
16,358
5,364

Now more than ever, it’s hard to justify not even exploring the possibility of a trade involving one of Marner or Nylander. (Tavares’ contract, the size especially and also the control he exerts with a full no-movement clause, makes the prospect of trading him almost impossible. We covered Matthews here.)

The results haven’t been anywhere near good enough to rule anything out since Tavares became a Leaf in 2018.


Maybe the Leafs and their new GM have been quietly looking around to see what they might be able to fetch in some sort of blockbuster transaction.

Or, maybe this team has decided to dig in yet again and stand by their stars in the hopes that eventually, that belief will pay off. It’s a narrative that Shanahan appears to be fully invested in. Stick with the stars you believe in long enough, especially when it’s hard, and eventually, they will get over the hump and win a Stanley Cup.

It worked for the Capitals in 2018 and the Blues a year later.

It’s not a crazy notion. These are very good players, some of the best the franchise has ever seen. It’s hardly inconceivable that it all comes together for them one spring, just like it did for Washington and St. Louis.

Those two teams, on the other hand, had some playoff success. Not a lot, but some. More than the Leafs to this point. Also: They weren’t as top-heavy.

And the other thing, the bigger thing, is that Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and Tavares haven’t been quite good enough as a Quad Squad in the playoffs. They’ve yet to find that extra gear consistently enough to will their team on a deep run. They’ve shown hints of progress, but not enough to fully back their return — again — unconditionally.

That should be a major part of this conversation for the front office this offseason: Do they believe that Matthews, Marner, and Nylander can lead them to a Cup? (Tavares will be 33 in the fall and might well be more of a supporting cast member moving forward). Do they believe that those three still young-ish stars (Matthews and Marner will be 26 when next season begins; Nylander turned 27 in May) can unlock another more meaningful level in the postseason and do it for long enough to erase a Stanley Cup drought that’s inching closer to six decades?

That’s the real bet here if indeed the Leafs are bringing back the band.

Yes, there was progress last spring, but only enough to win a single round.

In the past, the Leafs have quietly suggested that they weren’t necessarily opposed to trading one of their stars (Nylander, namely), but wouldn’t do it just because. It had to make them better. They wouldn’t make change for change’s sake, as Shanahan suggested, and thus, make the team worse. Which was and is totally reasonable. The Leafs also entered this particular offseason with no leverage in any kind of star trade, which makes me wonder if Shanahan’s whispers to the stars were in part a leverage play.

Let poaching teams know, in a roundabout way, that you’re not inclined to trade anyone and maybe the offers improve.

If it’s less about that and more about still believing in those stars, well that sounds a lot like what Dubas was talking about. Being “too staunch and rigid” in that belief. It’s almost arguing that these stars are soooo good that there’s no possible way to trade them without getting worse. Which might be true but might also speak to a failure of imagination.

Maybe the Leafs don’t necessarily get better by dealing Marner or Nylander, but different and maybe even deeper instead. Maybe they bring in a forward with a different skill set, one who leans more rough and rugged and suited to playoff hockey. Maybe they’re able to finally address the No. 2 centre spot with a replacement who nudges Tavares to the wing. Maybe they can move the financial puzzle pieces around to address holes up front and on defence.
 

notDatsyuk

Registered User
Jul 20, 2018
11,687
9,797
I believe it is, but man did we ever mess up with our secondary picks in 2015 and 2016.

I didn’t mind the trade back in 2015 but to take Dermott over Carlo was madness. Even Aho was there.

Third round in 2015 was also a disaster.

Then in 2016, to take Korshkov to start round 2. Oh my. Picks 57 and 62 turned out pretty good (Grundstrom and Woll).

I just think we needed at least one or two of our 2nd or 3rd rounders in 2015/2016 to develop. That would have made a huge difference. Maybe we don’t need JT as much because we are happy with our young forward group.
It seems like anyone can get the top ten picks right (with a few exceptions), but getting it right in the rest of the first three rounds takes skill, and finding the hidden gems in the late rounds requires genius (or blind luck).
 

ShaneFalco

Registered User
Jul 15, 2012
21,414
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London, On
Maybe the Leafs don’t necessarily get better by dealing Marner or Nylander, but different and maybe even deeper instead. Maybe they bring in a forward with a different skill set, one who leans more rough and rugged and suited to playoff hockey. Maybe they’re able to finally address the No. 2 centre spot with a replacement who nudges Tavares to the wing. Maybe they can move the financial puzzle pieces around to address holes up front and on defence.
This!
Or you know, do the same thing again, and hell, why not again next year too?
 
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Captain Crunch

Registered User
Mar 31, 2019
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I remember when we were promised that the only way they could ever have success was to tank and rebuild.
Cannot argue with their regular season success, playoffs however, are another story!

They executed the tank well. After drafting 88,16 and 34, signing Tavares was an end to the "rebuild" and they have been trying to surround them with the right supporting cast. The beginning of the end was the hiring of Dubas.
This offseason may prove that the stench has been coming down from the very top all along.
 
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Captain Crunch

Registered User
Mar 31, 2019
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I agree with that premise. However it doesn’t mean you draft 3 years in a row and you have the right core.

Then on top of that, (if you think you do have the right core, and I don’t), if you are fully set on paying them astronomical salaries, you must have continuous draft picks to back those large salaries. We gave all picks and depth away.
Now you are right back to trying to build a UFA team around those guys. Bad recipe.
Agree 100%. The rebuild was abandoned too quickly once JT was signed. We needed to be much more cautious in who we were trying to acquire at trade deadlines by giving up draft picks. To me, the Tavares signing meant they were all in on trying to win a Cup, when they were nowheres close to being where they thought they were.
 

hullsy47

Registered User
Dec 7, 2005
6,598
1,232
Yeah, I'm not liking the way things are looking. Only a team with loyal paying fans can have the odacity to run this shit show back again. As they say, a fish smells from the head down.
Totally agree and to look at like 3 4 5 years of cap hell
Their hands are not tied today but by July 1 the leafs will be just short of a bondage porn scene
 
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Captain Crunch

Registered User
Mar 31, 2019
2,405
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I think in the case of the Leafs, NA's definition of insanity applies better to stupidity.

I'm not a fan of this whole "let's not change anything and see what happens this time" game. How about let's not do that anymore. How about let's try something new.

Oh wait.

The Leafs did try something new. It didn't work. But they're just gonna keep doing it anyway.

I'm so confused.

If they do the same thing over again, are they doing the same old, same old? The NA definition of insanity of trying the same thing and expecting different results? Or are they still doing something new with the whole four forward experiment that's gone horribly wrong?

Either way they're stupid.
I'm fearful that it's becoming more and more obvious that Shanny and the board are the ones who created this whole mess! If so, welcome to more insanity!!!
 

Its not your fault

Registered User
Nov 24, 2016
1,913
531

Now more than ever, it’s hard to justify not even exploring the possibility of a trade involving one of Marner or Nylander. (Tavares’ contract, the size especially and also the control he exerts with a full no-movement clause, makes the prospect of trading him almost impossible. We covered Matthews here.)

The results haven’t been anywhere near good enough to rule anything out since Tavares became a Leaf in 2018.


Maybe the Leafs and their new GM have been quietly looking around to see what they might be able to fetch in some sort of blockbuster transaction.

Or, maybe this team has decided to dig in yet again and stand by their stars in the hopes that eventually, that belief will pay off. It’s a narrative that Shanahan appears to be fully invested in. Stick with the stars you believe in long enough, especially when it’s hard, and eventually, they will get over the hump and win a Stanley Cup.

It worked for the Capitals in 2018 and the Blues a year later.

It’s not a crazy notion. These are very good players, some of the best the franchise has ever seen. It’s hardly inconceivable that it all comes together for them one spring, just like it did for Washington and St. Louis.

Those two teams, on the other hand, had some playoff success. Not a lot, but some. More than the Leafs to this point. Also: They weren’t as top-heavy.

And the other thing, the bigger thing, is that Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and Tavares haven’t been quite good enough as a Quad Squad in the playoffs. They’ve yet to find that extra gear consistently enough to will their team on a deep run. They’ve shown hints of progress, but not enough to fully back their return — again — unconditionally.

That should be a major part of this conversation for the front office this offseason: Do they believe that Matthews, Marner, and Nylander can lead them to a Cup? (Tavares will be 33 in the fall and might well be more of a supporting cast member moving forward). Do they believe that those three still young-ish stars (Matthews and Marner will be 26 when next season begins; Nylander turned 27 in May) can unlock another more meaningful level in the postseason and do it for long enough to erase a Stanley Cup drought that’s inching closer to six decades?

That’s the real bet here if indeed the Leafs are bringing back the band.

Yes, there was progress last spring, but only enough to win a single round.


In the past, the Leafs have quietly suggested that they weren’t necessarily opposed to trading one of their stars (Nylander, namely), but wouldn’t do it just because. It had to make them better. They wouldn’t make change for change’s sake, as Shanahan suggested, and thus, make the team worse. Which was and is totally reasonable. The Leafs also entered this particular offseason with no leverage in any kind of star trade, which makes me wonder if Shanahan’s whispers to the stars were in part a leverage play.

Let poaching teams know, in a roundabout way, that you’re not inclined to trade anyone and maybe the offers improve.

If it’s less about that and more about still believing in those stars, well that sounds a lot like what Dubas was talking about. Being “too staunch and rigid” in that belief. It’s almost arguing that these stars are soooo good that there’s no possible way to trade them without getting worse. Which might be true but might also speak to a failure of imagination.

Maybe the Leafs don’t necessarily get better by dealing Marner or Nylander, but different and maybe even deeper instead. Maybe they bring in a forward with a different skill set, one who leans more rough and rugged and suited to playoff hockey. Maybe they’re able to finally address the No. 2 centre spot with a replacement who nudges Tavares to the wing. Maybe they can move the financial puzzle pieces around to address holes up front and on defence.
Worked for the wings Yzerman and tampa. Maybe the model he is and was following.
 

hockeywiz542

Registered User
May 26, 2008
16,358
5,364


Are the Maple Leafs being patient or complacent with Core 4? | OverDrive- June 20th 2023 - Part 2

TSN

June 20, 2023 OverDrive

Bryan Hayes, Jeff O’Neill and Jamie McLennan are joined by Maple Leafs reporter for the Athletic Jonas Siegel to discuss the mindset of the Maple Leafs heading into the off-season and whether or not big moves with happen after another year of playoff disappointment.
 

TMLBlueandWhite

Go Leafs Go
Feb 2, 2023
2,148
2,212
The Leafs go out early in the playoffs, should they:

a) Trade a core loser
b) Keep the same losers together
c) 32
d) Banana

How could you go wrong?

Right?

Yet every year, every single year, with fans screaming the right answer, Shanahan confidently walks up and....

hits b.

Four forwards and a stupid coach it is.

Now if the Leafs had a perennial Norris candidate defenseman, a Vezina candidate goalie, a genius coach, no depth issues, and testosterone producing glands, they'd be more like Tampa.

One day I'd really like a reporter who didn't give a shit about his job to ask Shanahan a question like:

"Do you honestly think Treliving is going to get better results from the same roster and coach that your previous GM assembled?" Or "Why don't you think re-balancing the roster is necessary after so many years of failure?" Or "How far up Treliving's ass is your hand gonna be through all this?"

I'm sorry, I don't see any way this is gonna work.

At this point, I'm like Pavlov's dog. Pre-conditioned to expect failure. Looking at successful NHL teams and there is a clear method of constructing your roster.

The Leafs obviously haven't figured it out yet.
 
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Larcos_Unal

Excuses are for losers
Jul 6, 2007
6,200
7,654
Toronto
Core will remain until Shanny goes, he's blindly stubborn and loyal to his guys.
As Hayes stated in that Overdrive clip, it's time for his core to reward that faith by playing like they give a shit in the playoffs.
 

Racer88

Registered User
Sep 29, 2020
12,563
12,560
I remember when we were promised that the only way they could ever have success was to tank and rebuild.
Yup Dubas’s getting Tavares and Keefe tanked the rebuild part of the “tank and Rebuild”

Core will remain until Shanny goes, he's blindly stubborn and loyal to his guys.
As Hayes stated in that Overdrive clip, it's time for his core to reward that faith by playing like they give a shit in the playoffs.
All true and unfortunately they don’t give a shit in the playoffs……..when the pay cheques stop so do they
 
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MCR74

Registered User
Nov 11, 2022
4,107
4,970
Core will remain until Shanny goes, he's blindly stubborn and loyal to his guys.
As Hayes stated in that Overdrive clip, it's time for his core to reward that faith by playing like they give a shit in the playoffs.

Good luck with that one. They've yet to show any inclination when it matters most.
 
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thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
43,009
13,445
Yup Dubas’s getting Tavares and Keefe tanked the rebuild part of the “tank and Rebuild”


All true and unfortunately they don’t give a shit in the playoffs……..when the pay cheques stop so do they
Can you imagine how awesome the sport would be if only 75% of your salary is in stone. The other 25% is PO results based. Probably the way it should be but they would argue that if you drafted to a bad team the players would just leave all the time.

You just can't win.
 
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ACC1224

Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
Aug 19, 2002
77,456
44,495
Yup Dubas’s getting Tavares and Keefe tanked the rebuild part of the “tank and Rebuild”


All true and unfortunately they don’t give a shit in the playoffs……..when the pay cheques stop so do they
I know some believe that but I don't think it's true at all.
 
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